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View Full Version : Bank shots, to bank with english or without.



superstroke
04-19-2004, 03:49 AM
I was talking to a friend the other day about banks. He is more of a conservative centerball tangent line player, where I'm more of an aggressive spin player. The issue at hand is that he likes to bank balls using cut angles to determine his bank, where I like to use english to make my bank shots. It could be that he doesn't play one pocket.
Do you guys like banking with or without english? (The question refers to the high percentage of banks that are not straight in banks).

stickman
04-19-2004, 04:47 AM
I actually do both. If I cut the ball at the decided angle, I normally come short, so I usually add a little english to compensate. A lot depends on the speed of the shot. Other times I like to shoot the ball full and vary the angle with english. It takes a lot of practice to get a good feel for it.

Wally_in_Cincy
04-19-2004, 07:13 AM
I know a guy who has taken lessons from John Brumback. John uses english on his banks but he's a banking machine.

If I get time later I'll try to show one of his "banking with english" theories.

Wally~~uses speed, not good enough to use english...

recoveryjones
04-19-2004, 07:18 AM
I try to use both depending on the shot and the posistion I would like to obtain. Having said that my banking sucks and I need to work on it during upcoming practice sessions. RJ

Popcorn
04-19-2004, 07:28 AM
Playing bank pool I use spin to effect the shot as well as play position and will often hit the shot with speed. Playing one pocket I would tend to split angles more, with little or no english, since I may be lagging the shot with slow speed. You don't usually fire banks in one pocket but you never know, you may do anything at any given time, there are no real rules.

nAz
04-19-2004, 11:01 AM
Did you check out BDs may issue? it has a good article on Bank-pool master Glenn "Piggy Banks" Rogers. it was pretty informative mentions cut angles on bank shots, however i did not agree on "twisting your wrist" on some banks shots strokes, i can not see that working or rather having any effect on the OB. I think that is something i will not try to do. anyone else catch that?

Wally_in_Cincy
04-19-2004, 11:49 AM
BRUMBACK RECOMMENDS A TIP OF LEFT ON THIS SHOT SO THE OBJECT BALL WILL BE ROTATING COUNTER-CLOCKWISE when it hits the lower tit. That will tend to help roll it into the pocket.

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%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pd9U1%Us4Z2%Vl7D3%W k9D9%Xi2K1
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wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)



Anybody ever heard this?

Bob_Jewett
04-19-2004, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote superstroke:</font><hr>Do you guys like banking with or without english? (The question refers to the high percentage of banks that are not straight in banks). <hr /></blockquote>
I'm not the world's best banker, but I've had the pleasure of hanging around Eddie Taylor at a couple of BCA Trade Shows. He said that the secret of consistency at bank shots is to use no spin and firm speed. That having been said, he could also twist balls in with the best of them when the shot required it.

Popcorn
04-19-2004, 12:58 PM
The way a bank pool player bank and the way you shoot banks during general play are two different animals. Most bank pool players hit banks hard and short, it seems to be more accurate. I watched Gary Spath (sp?) bank row of balls cross-side one time and he hit the rail in almost the same place every time but changed the speed a little. In general, he banked everything real hard anyway.

Scott Lee
04-19-2004, 01:16 PM
Bob...That is the same philosophy I teach. Willie Jopling, a close friend of mine, and an excellent banker, also maintains that banks with no english are the most accurate, except in certain special situations. I think that many players who use english all the time (whether banking or not) really don't understand how the CB reacts without sidespin...and consequently never practice vertical axis shooting. I certainly find that to be true with many of my own students of all abilities.

Scott Lee

rocky
04-19-2004, 01:41 PM
I use inside english on short banks to straighten out the bank, within two diamonds. No english on anything close to a natural bank, and outside english on long banks to help drive the ball further down the table. These are just tipacle shots, gotta use right english for the right shot.

stickman
04-19-2004, 01:51 PM
I read that too. I didn't get the twisting stroke either. I'd love to have the master banker teach it to me though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee
04-19-2004, 02:03 PM
rocky...The better players (banks included), realize that sidespin should be utilized MOST of the time, to affect the path of the CB, after contact with a rail...when just using topspin, centerball, or draw, won't get the CB where you need it to be. In the same vein, many players don't realize that you can get easy position sometimes using centerball with english...as opposed to adding top or draw to the english. There are certainly occasions where english is used to "help" a shot in, including some bank shots. They are, however, in the minority. Using sidespin sparingly is a natural path to becoming a better player, imo.

Scott Lee

phil in sofla
04-19-2004, 04:30 PM
In one of Grady 'The Professor' Matthews' tapes (maybe the Finer Points of Pool, or Just Kicks (?)), he mentions that, generally, as possible, cueing the ball with draw is helpful for banking. After incorporating that idea into my banking, I've become a reliable enough banker that those I play with have remarked they assume I will make most banks, that it is automatic.

One question is whether you sight the line through the mid-point diamond, or at the nose of the rail of the midpoint . I sight the banklines through the diamond, and if you work out how the ball is hitting the proper line when aimed that way, it is hitting that line short of the midpoint. Accordingly, to make the ball when it hits a little short of the line, it could use a little running English to lengthen it out a bit. So, for typical banks, I use a little outside English, with the draw. The outside English induces running English on the object ball. If draw is wrong in a given situation, I typically use top, with the outside English. One advantage of cueing low and outside on the cue ball is that I can bank balls that are frozen to the rail. The combination of low and outside helps avoid the double kiss, and gets the object ball moving off the rail on the proper line.

I have seen some instructional materials that say whenever the line of the bank isn't quite on, but is close, one should make it not by cutting the object ball a little, in compensation, but by using some combination of English and/or speed. I don't use that idea myself.

Some one-pocket banking type shots, twisting the bank in, work very well, in my experience. For an object ball anywhere up to 1 diamond off the rail you're banking parallel to, shooting it full into the rail at 90 degrees incident, with two tips of outside English (no top or bottom), is a reliable banking method for me.

About the only type of banking I don't use, and don't know how to use at this point, is a center ball hit on the cue ball. Back when, I tried the x-bank method, which is a center ball hit. That is a cumbersome method which subjected me to considerable ridicule, and my current favorite, getting the line by paralleling equal in and out angles, through the diamonds, with the low outside English cueing, works so well that I don't know I'm interested to pick up.

griffith_d
04-19-2004, 06:01 PM
In general, outside english will widen the return of the OB and inside english with narrow the angle of return. So it depends on where you are wanting to place the CB after the shot on what you choose and as always the harder you hit the CB the more narrow the angle of return.

Griff

1Time
04-21-2004, 02:06 AM
I nearly always use English when banking in combination with varying the speed of the cue for the purpose of making the shot and shaping the cue for the next shot. I prefer using top right, top left, bottom right or bottom left English.

I'm a 9-ball player and rarely play anything else, but bank pool is my 2nd game of choice. I hardly ever play bank pool though, unless I run across a bank pool player.

Vagabond
04-21-2004, 07:37 PM
If u watch Ewa play u find her twisting the wrist very frequently.yet she runs the racks.Cheers
Vagabond

Chopstick
04-28-2004, 08:03 AM
Buddy Hall calls that "Tuck &amp; Roll". He talks about it at the end of his clock system video. I asked him about it last week and he said that it's a spontaneous action that occurs in the wrists when you are applying side english to the cue ball. It's not something that you should consciously try to do.

I played Mike Sigel in an exibition last year and he was really exaggerating that motion. After that Spiderman came for a visit and I took him over to Mike's shop Ewa was there. As I undetstand it, she came to Orlando to work on her game with Mike. I think that's where she picked it up.

I haven't seen Ewa play but after working with Grady and Buddy the moves they make are tiny compared to what Mike's doing.

Chopstick
04-28-2004, 08:39 AM
I just came from a Bank Pool lesson with Grady Matthews. Grady brought up an interesting point I have never heard before. Grady says "There are three ways to make a bank. A Nine Ball way, a One Pocket way and a Bank Pool way." Since this was a Bank Pool session we were focused on the Bank Pool way. I would say that 85% of all the shots employed no english at all. The technique I learned is to overcut the ball slightly and shorten it up with speed. It makes for a crisp clean shot and it's definitely more consistent for me. The shots that did require english used very little. No more then one tip. I even got him to teach me that crazy looking zig-zag shot two and three rails cross table into the side pocket. Even that one only uses one tip of inside.

Now, in Nine Ball and One Pocket there are other considerations. Then you would get into more situations where you would want to throw the object ball. I think that if you have the ability to make most banks without english then you will have an advantage when you have to use english because you will have an established baseline to work from.

SpiderMan
04-28-2004, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> When you're not practicing, somebody else IS practicing, to WHIP YOU!
<hr /></blockquote>

I'll give you three guesses who!

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
04-30-2004, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> Buddy Hall calls that "Tuck &amp; Roll". He talks about it at the end of his clock system video. I asked him about it last week and he said that it's a spontaneous action that occurs in the wrists when you are applying side english to the cue ball. It's not something that you should consciously try to do.

I played Mike Sigel in an exibition last year and he was really exaggerating that motion. After that Spiderman came for a visit and I took him over to Mike's shop Ewa was there. As I undetstand it, she came to Orlando to work on her game with Mike. I think that's where she picked it up.

I haven't seen Ewa play but after working with Grady and Buddy the moves they make are tiny compared to what Mike's doing. <hr /></blockquote>

I have a friend here in Dallas (good player) who uses "back-hand english" when he's really juicing the cueball. Instead of a methodical "aim, then pivot" method, he lines up centerball and "swerves" during the shot. His style exhibits the exaggerated grip-hand motion you describe.

Perhaps Sigel learned the same way? He and my friend are similar in size and stature (you commented on physique vs style in another thread).

I don't remember one thing about Ewa Mataya's wrists.

SpiderMan