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View Full Version : Learning defense and reading the table



bluewolf
04-20-2004, 05:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote griffith_d:</font><hr>

We all seem to focus on making balls but you might think about learning how to "not make" balls(defense) and reading the table. That is an area that I sure a lot of players could use some work, including myself. It is almost like chess sometimes,..reading the table is very important and being able to see what the other player might see that you miss when it is an obvious shot or safety.

Griff <hr /></blockquote>

I pulled this off of the instructor thread. WW started teaching me simple defense as a beginning sl2 and more of this as I got better. He also tried to teach me to look for the next right shot, plan three plays ahead and to find my problem balls and plan when to take them out and when it was to my advantage or not to break up a cluster.

I think that the teaching I got helped me to start looking at the whole table, but some of it, I wonder if it is how my brain works, just like some people are better at certain pool games like 1-p or 9ball, than other pool games.

I think it is experience too, but have seen some pretty good offensive players (sl6,sl7/B,B+) who are not as good at this as others who are ranked the same. I am assuming that in most cases an A player has proficiency in this area as well as running the rack, which is why I specify B.

After playing for two years, I assume that further improvement will come in this area as I gain control of the cueball and pocketing skills. This is because at my current level of skill, I am sometimes better at seeing what seems to be a good way to play the table,and alterative plans based on what the other player does, than I am able to execute. And, of course, I also realize that an B player who is good at strategy will see some things that I do not. &lt;G&gt;

But, I also wonder if among good players, if at least part of this is the way the mind of the player works.

Laura

1Time
04-21-2004, 03:13 AM
With a decent 9-ball break I read the whole table in few seconds. Then I will read it again when needed either to keep it fresh in mind, or if I've missed shape on a shot, or made a break out that didn't spread as predicted, or missed and allowed my opponent to shoot. I also do the same with 8-ball but it takes a little longer. I do this in addition to reading 1 to a few shots ahead after each shot. Only reading 1 to few shots ahead doesn't cut it if you're wanting to run the table.

There are primarily offensive shots, (2-way) offensive/defensive shots, and primarily defensive shots. However, in each shot there is an offensive and defensive aspect to consider. Taking into consideration your own and your opponent's strengths and weaknesses is key to determining the best balance of a shot's offensive and defensive aspects to choose. The best way to learn this is to get hands on instruction, and watch and imitate the stroke and play of better players.

phil in sofla
04-26-2004, 01:02 PM
Somebody, maybe Jack Nicklaus, once said, the more I practice, the 'luckier' I get.

I think that's about the case with defensive play in pool. The more you know, the more you're comfortable with the right speed to be sure to duck behind some blocking balls, the more you see those opportunities. If you haven't practiced the touch required for a precise ending spot, to be sure to get behind blockers, then it isn't a high enough percentage to even consider.

That used to be a problem for me, not knowing the slow roll speed and exact line of the cue ball, so my early attempts to play shots like that were unsuccessful, and often sold the rack. Now, with practice and familiarity, I'm able to see and execute shots of this kind, and get ball in hand, or an open shot from my opponent after a kick, and that is helping me win games.

Chris Cass
04-26-2004, 01:50 PM
Hi Laura,

What would you do with this? You have BIH.

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%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3

)END

Take your choice,

C.C.

Frank_Glenn
04-26-2004, 08:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Laura,

What would you do with this? You have BIH.

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%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3

)END

Take your choice,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

I would shoot the corner ball in for the other guy and give him BIH. Of course, I'm not Laura
Frank &lt;- been called nasty names for those type leaves

Chris Cass
04-26-2004, 10:16 PM
Your very close Frank. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

C.C.

Wally_in_Cincy
04-27-2004, 06:50 AM
does the shooter have solids or stripes?

Chris Cass
04-27-2004, 07:32 AM
Hi Wally,

It's your choice. I did write it in my post buddy. LOL Wake up. LMAO

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
04-27-2004, 07:49 AM
Ummm..

6, 4, 7, 8-ball in pocket A ?

START(
%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3%Qs2[4%Up0Z6%V\7Z5
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

Do I win a prize?

Chris Cass
04-27-2004, 08:07 AM
Hi Wally,

I can tell you've always been a hard worker. LOL There's a few ways to get out and your way is as good as any. It does however leave you with a small percentage of jarring the 8 ball.

You do get the boobee prize though so, I'll be sending some boobee's your way. LOLLOLLOL

Regards,

C.C.~~likes Wally tons....

Wally_in_Cincy
04-27-2004, 08:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>..You do get the boobee prize though so, I'll be sending some boobee's your way. LOLLOLLOL<hr /></blockquote>

http://plastik.hu/ketrec/boobies.jpg

bluewolf
04-27-2004, 09:01 AM
Cheat in three for angle on four into the side, to cheat in the six with a kick-tit to bring it out at the seven. Then I am at a loss at to what would happen to the 8 and 9 frozen. If I could get an angle to come out for a kick/thin on the eight to break them out, would this prevent a scratch and would it still leave me good for the rest of the run? Would have to try it on my table. If that is impossible or if it would leave my opponent good.

Number two. Cheat in the three for an angle on the four for a light hit on the four into the side. Lite hit the six into the pocket for a leave on the rail so that they would have to either kick two rails for the seven or do a jump.

. Well the first balls I think I could do, not sure about the perfect angle on the seven to kick out to the perfect angle to kick out the 8 and nine.

Maybe a safe would be better but even if I screwed up on the seven that still leaves the 7 and the two fozen balls to deal with. At my level, almost nobody runs out or can do real hard stuff so would probably go for it because they would be unlikely to get out. A reason for this is that I could learn something. Another option on the seven is a kick/safety, bringing cb behind or nearly behind the nine.

See lots of things but do not know what is possible vs what is impossible really. LOL

I guess just giving ball in hand is an option but try to go for it if I have a reasonable chance. The 3 and 4 and six are very makable for me since I have learned two rail stuff. Just not sure if I would attempt to get in position for the seven not knowing what the 8 would do to the nine at that nine hit. I am afraid it would make the 9 vere to the left, and maybe leave me a hard cut on the eight, which could leave the opponent good on the 8 and 9 but not sure. Not that advanced I guess.

Laura

Fred Agnir
04-27-2004, 09:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Laura,

What would you do with this? You have BIH.

START(
%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3

)END

Take your choice,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>


I'm not Laura, but...

If I were solids, I'd call safe:


START(
%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3%PX6G6%Wp8E0%X]8F8%YZ9G3
%ZY6G4
)END

If I were stripes, I'd call the 9-ball:

START(
%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3%PV8X2%WZ0Y0%XW7X5%Yq3Z6
%Z\3Y3%eB5b4%_G4[3%`U8Z5%aZ4Y5
)END

Fred

bluewolf
04-27-2004, 09:30 AM
was it 8 ball? I thought it was 9-ball.

Laura

Chris Cass
04-27-2004, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
Take your choice,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>
I'm not Laura, but...

If I were solids, I'd call safe:


START(
%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3%PX6G6%Wp8E0%X]8F8%YZ9G3
%ZY6G4
)END <hr /></blockquote>

Yes Fred, this is the best choice. I would have played the same shot with the added bonus of pushing the cb to the rail. This forces the opponent to shoot the 9 and basically the games over in one shot. No work and no safe available. Frank also had the idea but the BIH would be giving your opponent too much leway. IMHO

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%Dr3D6%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mt2B9%P`1D1

)END

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif good call,

C.C.

Chris Cass
04-27-2004, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Laura,

What would you do with this? You have BIH.

START(
%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3

)END

Take your choice,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

I would shoot the corner ball in for the other guy and give him BIH. Of course, I'm not Laura
Frank &lt;- been called nasty names for those type leaves <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Frank,

Your right on my friend but this could happen if you gave me BIH after your shot.

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%DY8Y6%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mt3B8

)END

It's prolonging the game but it could get harry. IMHO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good call,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif thinks like me.

Chris Cass
04-27-2004, 10:09 AM
Hi Laura,

I thought the sl thing was APA 8 ball? Anyway, it seems I was under the gun waiting for your reply. I wasn't trying to mess anyone up or pick their brains but you know stuff like this is fun. I actually wanted to see the way you think things out. Now, which is it you play?

Regards,

C.C.

Fred Agnir
04-27-2004, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> was it 8 ball? I thought it was 9-ball.

Laura <hr /></blockquote>That's a 13-ball in the upper right corner.

Fred

bluewolf
04-27-2004, 10:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Laura,

I thought the sl thing was APA 8 ball? Anyway, it seems I was under the gun waiting for your reply. I wasn't trying to mess anyone up or pick their brains but you know stuff like this is fun. I actually wanted to see the way you think things out. Now, which is it you play?

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

Solids with the kind of hit that drives the object ball to the rail and the cb follows and inch or stops dead, putting it directly across from the nine.

START(
%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3%P[9I7%W]0D2%X\6H7%Yd1^0

)END

So if that is not the best safe, please tell me why.

Laura

Chris Cass
04-27-2004, 10:35 AM
Hi Laura,

You'll need to be a little more clear. I'm fuzzy on this. Do you mean make the 4 ball in the side and you have solids?

C.C.

Leviathan
04-27-2004, 10:44 AM
Chris and Fred:

About this solids option--can you call a safety on a combo under the BCA rules of 8-Ball? The rules seem to require that the object ball be obvious when a safety is played (4.12), and also to say that combinations are never obvious (4.2). I don't really think that you're wrong about this; I've just never heard how BCA interprets these rules, and I wonder whether you've had official input on it.

Regards,
AS

A few minutes later: It just dawned on me that your solution is probably designed for APA rules, and I don't know offhand how APA deals with safeties. So please excuse me--I blew it. I'm still curious about BCA's position on combo safeties in 8-Ball, if you have any info on that.--AS

bluewolf
04-27-2004, 10:48 AM
Stripes:

I do not have the skill to make the shot Fred did. I would either bad hit one of their balls away from a pocket hoping to leave a more difficult shot to minimize their chance of a runout, thus their bih would be used to not have as much of an advantage, ie cleaning up mess or I would do the below and hope that they do not run out. But, then I usually do not play run out players /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif If I was playing someone as good as fred, I would be screwed /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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)END

You gotta realize that in apa there is not a three ball foulout so if I had the nine, I could do bad hits without a foul.

Laura

bluewolf
04-27-2004, 10:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Laura,

You'll need to be a little more clear. I'm fuzzy on this. Do you mean make the 4 ball in the side and you have solids?

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

No, a safe. Tap the 4 to the rail just to the right of the pocket leaving the cb directly or nearly directly across from the nine. If they went for the thirteen, it would still leave them tuff on the nine unless they were a 'Fred'

Laura

Chris Cass
04-27-2004, 10:53 AM
Hi Alan,

I wouldn't nor would anyone have to call safe. The requirements are that you hit your own ball first and hit a rail with the cb, ob or pocket a ball. Fred knows the legal stuff but I see nothing wrong.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif good question.

Leviathan
04-27-2004, 11:07 AM
Heck of a nice pool puzzle, by the way. I get a kick out of pool puzzles, and 8-Ball produces a lot of 'em. Probably the main reason I enjoy the game! --AS

Chris Cass
04-27-2004, 11:16 AM
Hi Laura,

My point is that your looking too hard at this. Remember to keep it simple. The first shot trick shot that anyone learns is this,

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%C[2Z5%KD1Z9%Pb9U7%UF6Z7%VZ7Y7%W\1Y3%Xb0V1

)END

The second is this,

START(
%Ar7D1%CC8C9%Dr4Z4%J[4Z5%KD1Z9%O[4C9%PS4X0%WF1Z6%XR5X2%eC1`7
%_C9R2%`D3T0%aC3Y2%bC8F5%cD6L9%dC2P9
)END

It wouldn't be hard for someone to call safe, make the 13 and pocket the 6 ball leaving the cb in the jaws. The best way is to take the easiest route that gives you the best case senerio with your ability. The combo is the best way imho.

There's no doubt that there's several ways to runout but if you keep it simple it will win most games. When players miss most of the time they're either not focusing or trying to do too much with the cb. Scott's 80/20 theory happens to the best of us. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Perhaps you can set a layout up that puzzles you? Then, tell us what you would do and see if we all can come up with the best way? One cuetip below ctr is stop ball. 1/2 cuetip above ctr will move you slightly forward after contact with of course the right speed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

Fred Agnir
04-27-2004, 11:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Chris and Fred:

About this solids option--can you call a safety on a combo under the BCA rules of 8-Ball? The rules seem to require that the object ball be obvious when a safety is played (4.12), and also to say that combinations are never obvious (4.2). I don't really think that you're wrong about this; I've just never heard how BCA interprets these rules, and I wonder whether you've had official input on it.<hr /></blockquote> If the question is "can you call a safety," the answer is "yes" in every circumstance.

4.12 addresses pocketing an obvious straight in shot but intending to play safe. You must call safe in that instance. In the case of playing a combination by hitting the 4-ball and pocketing the 13-ball, a safety doesn't need to be called, but it would help to avoid any would-bd arguments if you call a safety ahead of time.

[ QUOTE ]
A few minutes later: It just dawned on me that your solution is probably designed for APA rules, and I don't know offhand how APA deals with safeties. <hr /></blockquote>There is no such thing as a "called safety" in APA rules. If you pocket one of your balls after a legal hit, you must continue shooting in the APA. I gave my solution with the BCA rules in mind, for some reason.

Fred

Fred Agnir
04-27-2004, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Stripes:

I do not have the skill to make the shot Fred did. <hr /></blockquote>The shot on the 4-ball is a stop shot.

The shot that I diagrammed if you're stripes.... well that's one that nobody wants to shoot.

Fred

wolfdancer
04-27-2004, 01:04 PM
Speaking of getting screwed...just watched an APA tournament at the Chinook Winds Casino, in Oregon. My diagram may be a little screwed up...but player A has his last two balls in front of the end rail pockets...the 8 ball is down table and frozen to his opponent's ball. He tries to make a ball, go up table to break up the cluster, but instead goes 4 rails and makes his last ball...with no shot on the 8
START(
%AB4B9%B[1B0%Cr6D3%DZ8\6%EB2B5%FA7\1%Gr3Z2%HM5L0%IT4P3%J[3\5
%KD0G1%L[0\9%ML1K9%NB6\5%O[3\8%Pg5Y1%UH9Z2%VC2R7%WR9D2%Xr0Y2
%YC8Q9%ZQ7C6%[p7Y5%\g5Y3%]e7P2%^o9P0%bn9E7%cI2[0
)END
(it wasn't easy to warp that last cb track, but I did it)
This was not as bad though as the woman that had a ball sitting in the end pocket, and she elected to make it,call a safety and leave the cueball there behind another ball. unfortunately she hit the ball so easy it did not drop, nor hit a rail. With bih her opponent then controlled the game.
Been there, done that!!

bluewolf
04-27-2004, 02:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Laura,

My point is that your looking too hard at this. Remember to keep it simple. The first shot trick shot that anyone learns is this,

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

Chris, It occured to me that I might not do the safe I said. It is hard for me to look at a diagram and decide what to do. It is easier for me to decide at the table, if that makes any sense. If I can put the cb where the person will not have a hit at all that is what I try to do, or leave them bad, in the event that I have to play safe.

I started out playing too much safe and at Fred's suggestion started trying to play more offense. It helped my game a lot. I remember what someone said here that if the safe is as hard as the shot, take the shot. So, i guess I sor of go with the flow, look at the table and decide what looks best, 'when to hold and when to fold', more or less. Standing = thinking,then I get down and do whatever.

Laura

Chris Cass
04-27-2004, 10:40 PM
I'm sorry Laura. I forget sometimes what it felt like when I started playing. I remember how it was so much to take in when looking at all these balls togather on the table. It can be very confusing.

You know how everyone always says to look at 3 balls at a time? That's why they say it. That is also a good way to get things right in your mind too. To get the rails down and to get from one place to another with a bit of regularity. Practicing with 3 balls on the table by breaking and taking BIH, running them in order, is a good way to develope ones mind into seeing 3 balls ahead.

Regards,

C.C.~~one day it all becomes clear, then it hurts to play. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

bluewolf
04-28-2004, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> I'm sorry Laura. I forget sometimes what it felt like when I started playing. I remember how it was so much to take in when looking at all these balls togather on the table. It can be very confusing.

You know how everyone always says to look at 3 balls at a time? That's why they say it. That is also a good way to get things right in your mind too.

Regards,

C.C.~~one day it all becomes clear, then it hurts to play. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Chris, I dont know if it because of my personality, but do better when things are 'real'. The balls on the table in a match are real so can see better what to do. The balls on a diagram are not real, it is hypothesis, saying what you might do, that, in a game, I might see it another way.

I look at the whole table. I decide which balls should go in last for a three run on the eight. I decide which balls should go in first.I spot the trouble balls and look for ways to get them out as soon as possible and if after the break, have choice, look at the whole table to decide which would be the best choice if there is one. It does not always work the way I want or I would win all the time, that is just how I TRY to do it.

Sometimes Something else weird happens when everything is clear. When I was in my second session as a two, I found that I was entering this altered state on a regular basis like in 50% or more of my matches and also in my first session as an sl3, a little less this session because it took me awhile to get anything back, losing my first matches as I was rusty in my game and mentally too after taking off a couple of sessions.

It, when I explained it to ww and fl, they said I was going into the 'zone' and I did not know why. We did not know why such an inexperienced player was doing this so often. So Larry and I talked a lot and I talked to Fran too, to figure out how this was happening. I still do not understand it completely but everything but the table goes away, even my opponent becomes unimportant, I do not hear or see anything around me, time becomes quite distorted and everything becomes crystal clear and I make shots that maybe I have only made once or twice, I do not remember the shots and safes afterwards and do not know how many games I am up or down, winning or losing does not exist nor does something called the hill. Everything ceases to exist but the shots, safes, shape and so forth. H, when that happens, I look at the balls but do not even think about english ball speed or anyone that, just get down and shoot, it is like my brain or something points the stick at the cb where it wants it to go, spin or how much or not at all, and how much, top middle or low. Also, misses do not register either. Nothing literally matters except shooting. If I was shaking before, that disappears. If my stroke was a little off, that becomes straight and so forth.

So how a beginner could be going to this place at a more than 50% rate eluded me. After analysis by paralysis over the whys and how, I just accepted it even if I did not like it. One thing that I will say though and that is that it is more likely to happen in the second or third game than the first and the longer the match, the more likely but if it is going to happen, it happens in the second game at the end of it or the beginning of it. But that it is more likely to happen when I walk into the pool hall relaxed with no expectations other than to just play so I am not thinking anything negative, nor feeling cocky,only looking forward to playing. I think that that is for lack of better words the 'preamble.

There was more. This altered state was sometimes 'deeper' than at other times. I did like like it if it was too deep because it became scary almost like I was looking down on myself playing, totally detached. I did not like that and was talking to experienced people to try to be able to control how deep it went. I referred to FL about the 'light zone' vs the 'deep zone'. I came out of the deep zone totally spaced out for hours after the match and sometimes was even tired the next day. This type of experience was so exhausting afterwards that I also knew that I could never compete at a tournament in this state or else I would never have the stamina to finish. I really wanted to learn how not to do this.To be quite honest, this happened in the falcon tour. She won first. I went in to this deep zone and won the next four , being on the hill, four to one. WW came over and I popped out so exhausted I felt drunk with fatigue. She came back to beat me 5-4. I greatly preferred the lighter one(does not create as much fatigue) where things go away but my ears still hear, like a distant crowd in a soft roar than not hearing anything, preferring even being in a nonzone place on good concentration, relaxation etc to that 'deep' one. If I could not control it, I did not want it. So while many were trying, it seems, to figure out how the get in the 'zone', I was trying to figure out how to not do it at at all because I had not learned how to control it.

Fl thought that this was happening because I had meditated so much, done advanced training on breathing techniques,self hypnosis and practiced zen so with those things, they were somehow kicking in at an unconscious level.

I talked to Fran too because by then was quite upset about this. She helped me a lot about telling me what the sports psychologists were telling us. I tried techniques that would keep me more in the here and now so that I could control where my mind/spirit or whatever was going by walking over and saying something to some body.That is the only thing that helps in a deep zone that I have found. FL said to give myself a break zone command but I am not controlled enough to make this work. That is about it, perhaps when I get better, I will have more control but as an sl2, I think you can imagine how scary this was.

Then last night, having reinjured my back two days ago, ww and I went to the ph since playoffs are on thursday, myself knowing that if I could play for 30 minutes that was my limit. After about 15 minutes I went into the zone. I now know when I am there or going in there because my stroke cadence changes, the pockets start looking like bread baskets, I do not hear anything or it is distant sounds that do not register and so forth. In leaving the pool hall, I thought that i had played for 30 minutes but ww said no, it was 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Once we were walking out was feeling like I had had a tranquilizer, then the back spasms hit an hour later when the tranquillizer feelings were wearing off.

I was hoping not to play in the playoffs but everybody wants me at the table because I zone so much but in my mind I do not really want to and often, trying to not do it, I have to pay attention to stuff and then can be beaten. geez. Would really like to find the balance in all of this.

Popcorn would probably say 'just play' but this is easy to say when one is not being frightened by what is happening to ones brain and not being able to stop it. At one point, I was so upset, I thought that I was going to have to quit pool. So learning to play I was dealing with along with that this scary thing that was going on more times than not in a match. i spent many tears over this, wondering why I wass differnt and wishing that I could just be 'normal'

So if you or anyone knows why this happens to me and not others,and how to control it, give me a clue. The only thing that I have found to work to keep from going too deep is to walk over and say something to someone. I think that prior to pool, I had done this at an early age in tennis and then in karate, so perhaps that is part of it, but really do not know. the first time in pool this happened, I could barely hold a cue, prior to my first lesson with scott. Ray said that I was in the 'zone' which I had never heard of, i told him somehow I had gone into a 'trance' because that was the only word I knew.

I hesitated to put this stuff on here, was afraid for so long that noone would believe me or make fun of me, but got past that fear of anything someone on here says to me months ago.

On other times, when I do not go there, I am satisfied with confidence, relaxation and concentration. I personally thank that this is a wonderful place to be.

Sorry if this is rambly. other than talking to fran and fl, have held it in for a long time, the talking about it, so it is probably coming out all jumbly. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Laura

Wally_in_Cincy
04-28-2004, 09:34 AM
Looks like you have been taking writing lessons from FL as well as pool lessons /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

don't hate me /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bluewolf
04-28-2004, 10:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Looks like you have been taking writing lessons from FL as well as pool lessons /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

don't hate me /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

'Hate is not a family value"haha Luckily all of my posts are not as long, nor as many these days. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

taping the greats and heading for the poolhall.

Laura

BCgirl
04-29-2004, 04:43 PM
For a long time, I'd probably have done the same thing. Partly because I was over cautious, partly lazy, but you know, if I'm playing someone who doesn't have the confidence to run this rack with solids and BIH, because they're scared of the 8 ball, and play this safe on me, leaving me in the position shown.

START(
%Dr3D6%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mt2B9%P`1D1

)END

... then I'm going to reply with a deliberate foul and make your 7 ball. You're now in the same position as before, but you already lost your best ball for position on the 8 (the 4-ball) by pushing it over the pocket, and you're under more pressure. If you're a strong player, and you were just playing head games with the safe then you're going to just bite the bullet and run out, but at least I improved my chances. With stripes, I'm not going to lose much sleep losing this rack from the position shown. But, a weak player (and even some good players) is more likely to get frustrated at me taking a deliberate foul and leaving the 8-9 intact, and then make a big mistake and sell out.

The original position is an easy run out. Your goal with solids, as a 99% favourite, is to do nothing to weaken that. My goal with stripes is to improve the odds with every shot. If I just narrow the odds from 99/1 to 80/20 with my shot, then I'm really happy.

But, don't give me the chance, just four easy shots :

START(
%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3%PI6N6%WF1X6%XI3O5%YQ5T1
%ZG5[0%[F8Z3%\E8Y3
)END

START(
%D\5G0%Fr6Z6%GB6\4%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3%PS1S1%Wo0Z9%XT0S2%Yr4X6
%Zp6Z9%]j3P7%^r8W6%eB0a6
)END

The key shot is the 4 to 8, but it's simple.

START(
%D\5G0%Ft3\3%GB6\4%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3%Ph6O3%WD9P0%X\5H1%YN9Y9
%ZD0P3%[[2C1%\\1E7%]]7H8%^g8N5%eB0a6
)END

If you play a stop shot on the 8, and miss, then you still leave this (I wouldn't really like to be forced to make this awkward shot) :

START(
%D[5A7%GB6\4%Hq9Y5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3%PZ2Z0%eB0a6

)END


... and there's no reason to get too nervous about the 4-ball shot. If you messed up the speed or rail angles, then you can carom in the 8 off the 9.

START(
%D[6B0%Ft3\3%GB6\4%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mr6D3%PS4T8%UX6T8%VZ2Z0%Wr5Z5
%X\0Z3%YX6Z6%ZS9U9%]Y8Z9%^Y4[1%eA8`6
)END

Just go fot it !

Chris Cass
04-30-2004, 12:05 AM
Your one smart cookie. I don't fear the runout in the least. I'm taking my best shot at forcing you to shoot at your ball but, if you chose to pocket my seven ball then I'll have BIH and will play this shot first to start my runout. I'll go from (A).

START(
%Dr3D6%Fr6Z6%GB2[9%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mt2B9%Pr9W7%QZ4N8%U_0[3%Vq8Z1
%eC4a9
)END
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html



(B)

START(
%Dr3D6%Fs8\1%GB2[9%HT4Z5%IU9V2%Mt2B9%P]1Z2%QZ4N8%Up8E5%V]9Y3
%Wd8Z3%Xp0C5%eB0a0
)END
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html




(C)

START(
%Dt2C1%Fs8\1%GB2[9%HT4Z5%IU9V2%Mt2B9%Pd6Z9%UV4Z7%Vc4Z8%WD2[0
%XS3Z4%eB8a0
)END
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html




Your a player miss BC and I enjoyed your confidence. I highly doubt an sl3 or 4 would think about that and try to make a hit on the 9. Then, giving up the win. Your odviously a higher caliber shooter.

Thanks for your excellent post.

Regards,

C.C.

bluewolf
04-30-2004, 07:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Your one smart cookie. Your a player miss BC and I enjoyed your confidence. I highly doubt an sl3 or 4 would think about that and try to make a hit on the 9. Then, giving up the win. Your obviously a higher caliber shooter.

Thanks for your excellent post.

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

I do not play nine ball but here is what I did in 8. To make a legal hit would have required kicks which would be difficult to me, at least 80% I would not make the shot. If i do not have a good chance of making the shot, I try to mess up their balls. This shot did require very delicate finess, IMO, but my percentage in delicate finess shots is over 50% as opposed to 2-rail banks, which are probably about 10%. Here is what I did last night.

START(
%AQ7N2%BN9M2%CC0B9%DZ7B5%EQ3P1%FB5[9%G[8B7%HT1H8%IR9Q0%JR8L5
%Kg2Z2%LS5N5%Me3Z2%NC1\2%Og0R1%Ph1N7%Wg5P9%Xg9N7%]f4Y1%^g0R4
)END

This left him with a three ball cluster on the upper end of the long rail and reasonably hard on his other balls. I look at the percentages, while i am standing and act accordingly.After this shot, the guy looked at me confused. I said 'when you cant make your balls, then mess up the other players balls'. was just a matchup, no money down so talking a little was okay. Sometimes bad hitting the other players balls is the correct choice. It is better to do, in effect, he then has to use bih to clean up mess I created for him rather than to his advantage. In that situation, a missed kick would not only give him bih, but could also have resulted in hitting his balls into a better position for him.

We were doing mathups after league play and he beat me on the eight twice, with both games coming down to the eight. I was disappointed in myself that a four could beat me, not mad mad, just determined to get better (on the way home ww told me that he is now a 5) ,then I went to another table, played for another hour and got my better shooting back, then beat WW, he literally had to drag me away from the table. Yeah he was tired but a year ago, even on his worst days I could not have done this so feel good I am getting better.

I had lost track of time again. I would not say that I was in the zone, only in that great place where nothing existed but shooting pool. He had to get up early and I would have kept shooting til they kicked me out the door.

BTW- On the original table layout posted above, I would have done anything I could think of to win the game. If I did not win, so what. trying means I have a chance, I might get lucky and do my shapes perfect. Who knows. I sure would not give it away. I might see things differntly at the table , but in looking at this,In my way of thinking, if I could instead of hitting the four directly, I would attempt to cheat the pocket to get an angle enough on the six to get me out for the breakout of the nine. shoot, why not go for it, what would i have to lose? It is only a game anyway. Anyway, nearly always go for it unless the shot is way harder than the safe or the probability that a missed shape will give the other player the run.

Incidentally, noone but me believes I can beat a seven except for me. Not often but anything can happen, so a person being a higher sl no longer bothers me. All I can do is play my best pool, play smart, go for it and roll with the punches. no need to cry if I lose, just keep trying to get better. But, I will say that in those fleeting moments of considering to quit pool, what kept me in was a determination to one day be better than WW. He did not think I had potential when I started, had and still have this warrior mentality to prove him wrong, no matter how long it takes to do that.


Laura---&gt; once a wolf, always a wolf

Eric.
04-30-2004, 08:16 AM
BC,

I like your thinking on moves when you are left this:

START(
%Dr3D6%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mt2B9%P`1D1

)END


If I'm solids and was left that, I think I would intentionally foul by making their 4 instead of the 7. Here's why:

You give him BIH whith this to start-

START(
%Dt0B9%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mu2B9%Pc1Q6

)END

What your forcing him to do is to go from 1 corner, around the table to get fairly straight on the ball in the opposite corner on the same rail, to get a decent shot on the 8. He might get bad Po on the ball before the 8 or get bad on the 8 itself, giving you a chance to get out.

The flip side is that your opponent may give you BIH back, where you can counter with this-

START(
%Dt0B9%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mu2B9%PU8X4%Wp6Y9%XU9X5

)END

shoot the 9, making his ball and putting the CB like this-

START(
%Dt0B9%Fs6[9%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%Im5V9%Mu2B9%Pn0Y7%Wp6Y9%XU9X5

)END

forcing your opponent to kick or jump to make the 7 to get out. That makes it a lower percentage do or die for him.

Obviously, if you are starting with stripes, you are way behind in that rack. This is how I would try to steal one.


Eric &gt;welcome aboard

Chris Cass
04-30-2004, 09:29 AM
Well Laura,

I am impressed. Good thinking. You do know that all of those balls are stripes. Anyway, I understand what you meant and I think that good. One thing you might think concider is hitting your ball on the pocket side. That way, you'll have a slightly better option later. Not only do you pose a problem for your opponent but it might render you with an out.

START(
%AQ7N2%BN9M2%CC0B9%DZ7B5%EQ3P1%FB5[9%G[8B7%HT1H8%IR9Q0%JR8L5
%Kg2Z2%LS5N5%Me3Z2%NC1\2%Og0R1%Ph1N7%UR3[0%Vf0Q7%Wg0P9%Xg9N7
%ZC0V9%[O7O2%\C1V5%]i1Y6%^g0R4%eB4`9
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

I'd like to increase your odds in your two rail kicks. This is only one of many systems. I use this the most due to it's easy and quick assessment. It's called the Parrellel sys.

START(
%AZ3Z4%Hb2P3%Pc6O1%UP5D1%Vb7N7%WD4D2%X^3T9%YD2L0%Z O3C4%]X7Y3
%^C2L7%eB1`9
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

The red being where you aim your cue stick. This is the half way point between the ob and your cb. This always goes to the corner pocket towards the direction you want to kick the ball.

Then, you physically walk the cue stick over to the cb and directly straight into the first rail your going to hit, indicated by the yellow line. The third line black isn't needed to be measured but should be noted in your mind. These lines should pop out in your minds eye as being clear.

The cb is hit with running english. The running english is the english used in the direction the cb will be going. Your going towards the left so, left is the english used. I'd say 1/2 cue tip to the left is just right. I use a slight high left maybe 1/2 cue tip up from ctr ball. I did indicate it on the wei table.

This also works for a 3 rail kick too. You just add a step. The red being the ctr line between the 2 rails needed to hit the ob. The cb must be aimed at that spot on the first rail. This might be too much for you so, I suggest you get the two rail down before exploring the 3 rail kick.

START(
%Ar3Z4%Hr3W2%Im6Z5%Pq6D9%Uq1Y3%VO7C5%WD6D6%Xc9[1%YV4Z9%Zp7E4
%[D1N3%\U0[0%]N6D1%^C3M6%eB9`9
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

Hope this helps. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Good strategy about the messing up your opponents opportunities. BTW, anyone can be beat anytime. It's nice to do it on a regular basis though.lol

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
04-30-2004, 09:43 AM
Hi Eric,

BCgirl has been here before. It's been awhile since I seen her posts though. She's no doubt a good shooter and knows very good strategy.

BTW, your pretty good yourself buddy. There is four options in that leave after pocketing the corner ball. I bet she knows them all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

Eric.
04-30-2004, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>BTW, your pretty good yourself buddy. There is four options in that leave after pocketing the corner ball. I bet she knows them all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know about good. Maybe a little better than your average Bear, Boo Boo.


Eric &gt;see ya in Vegas?

Chris Cass
04-30-2004, 10:06 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHA

Did you forget we played in the CCB11 tourney togather? I know you can play. You won't be seeing me in Vegas however I do want to be the first player to turn pro at the Open with a Barry cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~looking for a pick-a-nick basket as we speak. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bluewolf
04-30-2004, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Well Laura,

I am impressed. Good thinking. You do know that all of those balls are stripes.

Hey Chris. I have a hard time sometimes seeing those little balls on the wei. But, I had an eye exam last week and it turns out I have real bad astigmatism and far sightedness, so am getting laser surgery the first of June. WW said it helped him, but I am not expecting that, since experience seems to be the biggest factor, but it cannot hurt. LOL. But maybe I will be able to see the wei better. &lt;G&gt;

Anyway, I understand what you meant and I think that good. One thing you might think concider is hitting your ball on the pocket side. That way, you'll have a slightly better option later. Not only do you pose a problem for your opponent but it might render you with an out.

START(
%AQ7N2%BN9M2%CC0B9%DZ7B5%EQ3P1%FB5[9%G[8B7%HT1H8%IR9Q0%JR8L5
%Kg2Z2%LS5N5%Me3Z2%NC1\2%Og0R1%Ph1N7%UR3[0%Vf0Q7%Wg0P9%Xg9N7
%ZC0V9%[O7O2%\C1V5%]i1Y6%^g0R4%eB4`9
)END

I'd like to increase your odds in your two rail kicks. This is only one of many systems. I use this the most due to it's easy and quick assessment. It's called the Parrellel sys.
Thanks about the parallel system. That sounds pretty kool. One thing I forgot the mention on that table, which i probably did not draw very well. Along with the low kick percent, I know that you have to drive a ball to the rail in addition to hitting one of your balls, also. In the situation I was in, it was unlikely that my ball would be pocketed and likely that it would break out his balls for an open table and and easier run out.

Hope this helps. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Good strategy about the messing up your opponents opportunities. BTW, anyone can be beat anytime. It's nice to do it on a regular basis though.lol

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the other strategies.

I think I am pretty good on strategy for the time I have played but it is always good to hear suggestions from better players on things I do not know about and/or had not thought about.Those are the kind of things that are good to practice in case one needs to pull them out of one's back pocket. Just puts more options into ones game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

Chris Cass
04-30-2004, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>
Thanks for the other strategies.

I think I am pretty good on strategy for the time I have played but it is always good to hear suggestions from better players on things I do not know about and/or had not thought about.Those are the kind of things that are good to practice in case one needs to pull them out of one's back pocket. Just puts more options into ones game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Laura <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, your right on again. All the pros are constantly looking for that edge be it a certain way to shot a shot or a peice of equipment to shoot it. This is a forever ongoing thing we all must do.

The down side of the Lasik thing is your eyes might be effected in certain emvironments. Most problems I've heard of have been mainly them drying out. The smoke can be very irritating.

Regards,

C.C.

BCgirl
04-30-2004, 09:53 PM
Now you've gone and got me blushing. Thank you for the compliments.

I really like your thinking and the option of playing the 9 onto the 6. I would just be very concerned that I couldn't effectively hide the CB behind the 8, particularly if the 8 and 9 are truly frozen. You can't afford to move the 8. If that's not possible, then playing with follow onto the top rail with RH english would take tremendous confidence and it might be difficult to avoid a collision with the 9 as it came off the 6. Playing to cut the 9, and go off the opposite side rail and back to the RH rail to hide would take excellent potting, direction and speed control all at once. I like it, but if I don't hide the CB, then it's a sell-out, and I might just be too spooked to play it :-)

I do hope I'm not missing a trick to make the shot easy. If I am, then please, please put me out of my misery, because I hate not finishing the pool equivalent of a crossword.

Of course, I'm sure I've met some one-pocket players who would wink and say, "aw hell honey, all you need is a bit of stun, a bit of english and a diamond or two", and knock off something like this, making the 6 and leaving the cue ball hugging the 8:

START(
%Dt0B9%Fr6Z6%GD8Z6%H[2Z5%I[2Y1%Mu2B9%P]5Z4%QZ4N8%Uo4Z0%VI7D0
%WD1H2%XZ2X7%YH5D4%ZC3G1%[\4Y9%\]3Z3
)END

Of course, the 8-ball would save my billiards dignity by falling into the middle (maybe with an extra nudge /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif or two to help it).

It's such a unique game where there are so many different choices for so many different levels and styles of play. Thanks for pointing out just one of the many options that I didn't even consider.

BCgirl

Chris Cass
04-30-2004, 11:27 PM
Hi BCgirl,

I believe you have myself and Eric mixed up a little. That shot to shoot the 9 into the 6 was Eric' thoughts. Myself, I didn't concider that as an option due to the balls being frozen and the 6 out of reach. I did compliment you though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thought you forgot about us. Glad to see you posting again.

Regards,

C.C.