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Chris Cass
04-26-2004, 06:50 AM
Hi,

I'm wondering what the rule is on a push shot as of late. Picture the cb and the ob are within 1/2" of eachother. The opponent hits straight into it. She's jacked up and hits above ctr ball and the cb goes foward but hops even though it pasted the base of the ob.

I'm under the thought if the cb goes foward past the base of the ob it's a foul. Regardless, if the shooters jacked up.

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Sorry, don't know how to paste the Wei table site.

Thanks,

C.C.

randyg
04-26-2004, 07:03 AM
Cris: Are you not referring to a "double hit". A "push shot" is legal when a normal stroke is employed. A push shot is when the cueball/object ball are froze to each other.

A "double hit" is when you strike the cue ball more than once in the stroke. There is no base of the ball rule, but there is a reference in the BCA rule book to help judge double hits.....randyg

Frank_Glenn
04-26-2004, 07:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi,

I'm wondering what the rule is on a push shot as of late. Picture the cb and the ob are within 1/2" of eachother. The opponent hits straight into it. She's jacked up and hits above ctr ball and the cb goes foward but hops even though it pasted the base of the ob.

I'm under the thought if the cb goes foward past the base of the ob it's a foul. Regardless, if the shooters jacked up.

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%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pe8U4%eB4`7
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Sorry, don't know how to paste the Wei table site.

Thanks,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

I tell my opponent "if the cueball goes past where the object ball is then you have commited a double hit" and get buy in. If they question me on this I point out "you are hitting below center and are jacked up, so a good hit will result in draw and the QB will back up. A bad hit (double hit) will result in the QB going forward". They usually buy in, If they don't call a ref over or some uniterested 3rd party. Trying to sort this out after the shot just results in arguments and will almost always go to the shooter. They know it's questionable or they would not be jacking up. YMMV

SpiderMan
04-26-2004, 08:30 AM
Chris,

Here's my take - It's a foul if your cue strikes the cue ball twice. In the simple case, if the balls are that close together and they are the same mass, then the cue ball would have to stop dead when it hit the object ball full in the face. Any forward or back motion would have to occur after the stop. If the cueball were played with draw, you would think that it would have to stop, and then come back after the stop.

On the other hand, the situation you describe could differ. If played jacked-up, the cueball could jump and be slightly airborne when it strikes the object ball. In that case, since the contact point between the two balls would be above the OB's equator, the cue ball could deflect upward and forward, and land forward of where the object ball rested. Then the backspin would take and it would draw back. This could happen without a foul.

You've probably seen the trick shot where there is a ball in the jaws of the corner pocket, another ball the table's length away, and the cueball close behind the second object ball. The shot is played jacked-up like a combo, but the cueball is jumped enough to glance upward off the first object ball, land downtable and roll to make the jawed object ball, and then the first object ball rolls in behind it. The shot you describe is similar, but the CB is closer so it deflects more up and less forward, and doesn't actually go completely over the OB.

SpiderMan

Fred Agnir
04-26-2004, 08:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> I'm under the thought if the cb goes foward past the base of the ob it's a foul. Regardless, if the shooters jacked up. <hr /></blockquote>This is only a guideline for normal stroke shots.

If you jack up, hit the cueball only once, and it jumps forward after contact, then it is a legal shot barring any other fouls.

Fred

Chris Cass
04-26-2004, 10:46 AM
Hi Randy,

I should have said double hit. That is what I meant. What had happened was I was walking by and she had been playing my son Spike. She had asked another friend of mine to watch the shot before she shot it. I thought that was nice.

However, the balls were about 1/2" away from eachother and the shot was dead in the corner pocket, 3/4th length of the table. She jacks up and instead of hitting low she actually hits the ball on the high side, looking as if she was masseing it. The cb jumps but it didn't land straight in the shots path. It lands towards the left side of the shot like 2"s. So, I'm thinking she did double hit. What I think happened was she got nervous and hit the cb too high, almost trapping the cb like a masse. The buddy of mine calling the shot doesn't even know the legal rule to begin with and called it good. Then, he looks at me for guidence. I thought she fouled and said so.

I didn't care either way even though Spike was playing because they didn't ask me. I like to leave that up to the shot caller. Now, I did give my .02 and she asked 3 people besides myself. Some agreed and one didn't know exactly. Then, she said she'd ask the owner of the ph. To be honest she seemed like she wasn't going to stop till she found someone to agree with her point of veiw. LOL

In her eyes she thought just hitting it jacked up was the only legal requirement. Now, I think the cb would not have landed to the left side of the straight path unless, it was double hit. I just wanted to get the rule right. What caught my eye was the cb's reaction.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
04-26-2004, 10:59 AM
Thank you all for the replies. I can't believe I typed "pasted". LOL Oops, I truely meant past.

I do know that shot Spiderman was talking about and it might even be that shot but the balls were too close. The cb did land quite a bit further than it normally would have at that speed she shot. The trouble is I need to buy a rule book or my boss and keep it behind the counter. That way there's no aurguements. I don't even have to see the shot on some shots to know if a foul has been commited. I can tell many times by the sound and by the cb or ob reactions. I sure hope nobody at the ph would think that because my son was shooting that I'll cheat. I'm not that way. Mainly because I want him to learn the correct way.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
04-26-2004, 11:07 AM
Thanks Frank,

The cb did land past the ob. I do like the way you think. I was told at IA state by one of the refs that the cb couldn't go past the base of the ob. I also didn't believe that the ref should have basically told my opponent how to shoot the shot correctly either. It's fine when your just playing but in a tourney event I think one should know the rules to begin with. It's a catch 22 IMO. I want to say both ways are fine as long as the ref doesn't shoot it for him. LOL I know many rules but the problem I have is I'm forever getting them mixed up. I've played TE, bar, BCA and house. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Thanks Frank,

C.C.~~BTW, welcome to the board if I didn't extend my welcome earlier. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Barbara
04-26-2004, 02:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> I also didn't believe that the ref should have basically told my opponent how to shoot the shot correctly either. It's fine when your just playing but in a tourney event I think one should know the rules to begin with. It's a catch 22 IMO. I want to say both ways are fine as long as the ref doesn't shoot it for him.

C.C.~~BTW, welcome to the board if I didn't extend my welcome earlier. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>CC,

You are quite right, the ref CANNOT explain any of the rules to the shooter that may influence the shooter's shot selection. Rule 2.3

Barbara

RGlenn
04-28-2004, 12:04 AM
Hello everybody,

I've read all these posts regarding the double hit rule in BCA rule books. I've noticed several "other" scenarios mentioned while discussing it. They are: "push shot", "jacked up" and "ref said at IA State". When one reads the double hit rule, one MUST read "every" word of every sentence to completely understand it. Randy G will agree with me, I'm sure. Most people only remember the last part of the rule which says something like, "if the cue ball travels past the centerline(base) of the object ball, it is a foul. They don't read the first two parts of the rule which refer to the referee having to use "special attention" and "the following guidance MAY apply". The way in which one holds the cue is absolutely of no consequence whether a double hit occurs. Many advanced players have the ability to stroke a cue ball 1/2" from an object ball, make it travel quite a distance past where the object ball was sitting, and accomplish it with a legal stroke. One must used special attention to watch how the cue ball reacts after contact. If it travels as fast or faster than the object ball, the player has undoubtedly fouled. Now......"Push" refers ONLY to cue tip to cue ball relationship. That is...if the cue tip remains in contact with the cueball longer than what is commensurate with a legal stroke, it is a foul and has nothing really to do with cue ball to object ball relationship. Finally, I was the Head referee at the Iowa State Tournament and spent about five hours with the referees prior to the start of the tournament. Because of unusual circumstances, I am now the Director of Referees for the BCA Nationals this year. I can tell you I love the game, being a player, and I'm very proud to have spent the last 12 years as a BCA referee. Except for myself and one other referee at IA, all the referees were brand new and had never worked the floor. I can tell you they all did an exceptional job for never having been in the "fire" before. I can assure you I told them that they aren't supposed to explain the rules during a match to any player unless their opponent agrees. Most players are gentlemanly/lady-like enough to allow it. We are not, however, allowed to offer any subjective information concerning play to anyone. I will personally apologize for any misunderstanding that the referee may have had because I obviously didn't get the point across in the short time I had to train them before the STATE event began. Lastly, I want to thank all of you who took the time to read such a long post. I am Roger Glenn and am very proud to have been a BCA Head Referee since 1997 and also have a BCA Master Instructor Certificate. I will be happy to answer any questions anyone has concerning BCA rules. If you would like to write me personally, send email to RGlenn1069@aol.com. Have a great day everybody.

Chris Cass
04-28-2004, 06:44 AM
Hi RGlenn,

Yes, your refs did a good job at IA state. I had dealings with 3 of them. One was a man called Phil Ikeman(sp?). He was very good and I was impressed by him. It's not because he made a call in my favor. The call he made was actually in my opponents favor but he did call the shot correctly and this my hats off to.

Another ref and I don't know his name. He was a tall man with black rim glasses. He's the one I refered to as the ref who told the shooter the legal rule in full before my opponent shot and yes, it wasn't with my agreement.

The other was a woman. She was also tall and slim. She had black rimmed glasses also and black long hair. I watched he playing and she called the ref to watch a shot that my wife was shooting that clearly was not for any purpose other than to shark my wife. Judge for yourself,

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This was merly a move. The ref that called the shot told me he didn't like when players did that. I also mentioned that she was a ref and he knew it too. He told me refs shouldn't take advantage of the system but many players do.

Then, I watched her plainly commit a foul by not driving the ball to a rail and more than I saw it. She denied it when my wife questioned it. It's over now but you can bet if I ever need a ref I won't be calling her. If she is called I will go to the head ref and get another over there to make the call. Well, over and done. BTW, her team took first place due to her slickness in the team event hill-hill. She used her job skills to the best of her ability.

Basically you did do a fine job with the new refs and I thank you. BTW, the third ref had the key to the pool table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks for the rule explination.

Regards,

C.C.

SpiderMan
04-28-2004, 08:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr>
I tell my opponent "if the cueball goes past where the object ball is then you have commited a double hit" and get buy in. If they question me on this I point out "you are hitting below center and are jacked up, so a good hit will result in draw and the QB will back up. A bad hit (double hit) will result in the QB going forward". <hr /></blockquote>

Frank,

Realize that this description is only correct if the cueball is equal to or lighter than the object ball, and if the cueball does not jump.

On a bar table (with a heavier ball), even from a distance with draw, the cueball will penetrate forward somewhat through the former location of the object ball's edge before backing up.

Regardless of it's mass, if the cueball is airborne at contact, it can easily land in the space formerly occupied by the object ball. A jumping cueball is quite likely when shooting jacked-up, and it's quite possible the shooter did not foul.

These common "rules of thumb" are not absolute, and that's why "special attention" is required. A referee must make a judgement call on whether a double hit occured, and should also realize that it can be a fair hit even if the cueball occupies the former OB's "space" before backing up.

SpiderMan

RGlenn
04-28-2004, 08:35 AM
Hi Chris,

Well, you're up bright and early. I'm an Army dentist and I'm leaving today on temporary duty to Portland, OR and Helena, Montana. I won't be back until Sunday, so I thought I had better address a few things before I leave. Phil is a very solid referee. He knows the rules, the spirit of the rules and their applications, and he thinks well on his feet in potentially volatile situations. Maybe I have Alzheimer's, but I can't place tall dark haired referee with glasses. I was only familiar with Phil and the female. Her name is Marilyn Smith. Again, I can only apologize for what you perceived her actions to be. True or Not (and I'm not questioning your honesty), I have a very very strong conviction to avoiding anything that will jeopardize my own integrity and/or especially the integrity of the Referee program. Further, if I know that to be true of any referee, I would take action that would either correct the problem with that particular referee or terminate his/her service at any event. Case in point...I was the Captain of my team in Vegas two years ago. Our match was 12-12 and I was playing the other team's Captain. Our game became the match winning game because we were in the mother of all safety matches. Three games were finished on the other table while we were playing our one game (25 plus safety shots each) I shot a ball three rails to try to block the only pocket he had to make his only loose ball and surprisingly put my ball about 6 inches in front of the corner pocket. His only shot was to try to pocket my ball with his and leave me stuck. He didn't indicate to me what he was going to do. He shot the shot like I expected him to, but his ball followed mine in the pocket. Obvious shot?????!!!! His ball was at least 18 inches from mine. To shoot his ball "that far" to play a combination intending to follow my ball in the pocket six inches away from the pocket, and break out his last two balls was ridiculous. He didn't call the shot or give ANY indication of what his intentions were. I walked to the table expecting him to sit down having missed "another" safety. He argued that he called the shot. He didn't! I told him of the following dilemma. Three problems exist here. One...I didn't ask him what his intentions were......my fault to assume he would play yet "another" safey. Secondly...his honesty and integrity were missing in accepting or taking credit for a non-obvious shot. Lastly...my reluctance to call a referee to the table to settle the dispute. I explained to him that if I call a referee (they all know I'm a Head Referee in that tounament), I know he will rule in my favor based on the facts, placing that particular referee on the spot, putting my own Head Referee and personal integrity in question, and compromising the entire referee program. I didn't call the ref and told the other "Captain" that if the game was that important to him, I suppose he would just have to take it. He did and my team paid the price. One of his players was a master player and one of my referees. When I asked him about it in the presence of his Captain, he looked at him and said, "That's bullsh$%", and walked away. The point you ask? In my opinion, winning isn't nearly as important as doing what's right and I will talk to the referees, especially this year, concerning the PERCEPTION they produce to the player population. Unfortunately, perception is often taken as truth and must not reflect negatively on the referee staff. I'll do my best to correct that, even if it can't help you now.
Have a great day.