View Full Version : Code of Conduct
I'm looking for ideas to help improve player conduct. I'm thinking of a card system similar to that of soccer. For example, 1 yellow card for a minor infraction and 1 red for a major infraction, 2 yellows equal 1 red and if you end up with 2 reds in one tournament your out. Thats just a rough draft, I'm not sure how it would work. Anyway I would like some of your opinions on what would qualify for a minor or major infraction. Like moving around in the chair, excessive talking, foul language, abusing equipment. You know, everything you think shouldn't be tolerated or accepted as part of our game. All opionions welcomed, Thanks Joe T
04-30-2002, 04:50 PM
That sounds like a good system, but do you really want to give the jerks 3 "get-away-with-its" before you boot them?
I'm more of the mindset to give one warning (Unsportsmanlike Conduct comes to mind) and the next time I have to talk to that person, they forfeit the tournament.
04-30-2002, 04:55 PM
I haven't seen a major problem, but maybe I've haven't been at the right (wrong) tournements.
Edit Note: Removed non-relevant comment.
Well right now it seems nobody is getting booted and they're all getting away with murder. I'm just looking to start breaking them in,then maybe in the future 1 or 2 warnings then the boot. 2 major fouls with this system and they're gone. Give me some common acts that should recieve a minor or major penalties.
04-30-2002, 05:00 PM
Codes or Rules are very difficult to enforce. There has to be a strong oganization, to date.. the only organization is the WPBA, that can have any control over the player..
Otherwise, it is up to the tournament promoters. And, they won't discipline any players.. its conterproductive to having a well represented (player signups) and huge audience.
Why have a Code of Conduct if it isn't going to be enforced?
I wouldn't design one if I didn't plan on enforcing it. Now does anyone have any input.
04-30-2002, 05:16 PM
You already have a plan to enforce a code of conduct and you are asking for imput for a design of a code?
Is this a joke?
Are you serious?
Who are you?
04-30-2002, 05:18 PM
So start off with a "3 strikes you're out" deal.
I think that offenses such as abusing equipment (whether or not it's the house's or theirs), yelling or shouting out expletive deletives during one's match, not staying in their seat while their opponent shoots (but standing off to the side should be okay, as long as they're not in their opponent's line of view), taking one's break when not allowed to (like, during a game), talking on or accepting cell phone calls during a match (my fave!), trash-talking their opponent, and that's about all I can think of right now.
Yeah Joe, start off with 3 strikes and then maybe whittle it down to 2 just to keep the decorum up.
Barbara~~~hasn't had any problems with the NEWT ladies yet... /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif!
WOW!! This is a first for me. I actually agree 100% with Barbara. I will mark this on my calendar.
04-30-2002, 06:44 PM
Drunkeness, temper tantrums, stalling or delaying play, various sharking attempts on the opponent should draw warnings.
04-30-2002, 07:04 PM
Are you a MAJOR pool tournament director? I am only asking because trying to toss a red or yellow card at a bar tourney would result in a few black eyes (for the TD), I'm afraid!
There will NEVER be a penalty system for the biggies because the TD's want the money, the crowds want to see the action (good or bad) and that's the way it has been for years.
You might be successful at tossing a lesser-known player but good luck giving Strickland, Archer, Bustamonte or Efren directions to the door.
Good idea. Never happen.
My $.02 worth (only worth $.01 if you attempt to resell my opinions.)
I think the worst problem on the Joss tour is slow play and that is due mainly to Archer, Williams and Fernandez. I hate the shot clock but maybe there's something that can be done. Give them a certain amount of time to get to the tenth game and then put them on the clock.
Those guys will completely mess up the schedule and someone said Archer is doing it on purpose to annoy his opponent. Maybe ask Earl about that.
I know the tour is not for the spectators but Fernandez will put anyone to sleep. 30 practice strokes on most every shot at one time but I'll bet someone talked to him since he sometimes takes less than 20 now.
Williams has improved a little to where he's just unpleasant to watch. Probably doesn't bother his opponent that much.
Bring the balk back into the game. Once they get down they have to take the shot. If they get up it's a balk and 2 balks would be a ball in hand foul. Williams and
Archer couldn't play the game anymore.
Ken in CT
No foul language. Dress code. Time limit on shots. No abusing equipment/outbursts of temper. Limit to checking racks. No shark moves from the chair (talking to self and waveing arms around, glaring at everyone). Potty breaks regulated as to frequency (only during one's own turn), and length. Punctual arrival for match. That's all I can think of now.
Thanks Joe for taking an interest and trying to do something. I was amazed at the cynical attempts to smother this thread rather than giving input. What issues have you identified that you plan to put into the code of conduct?
Some of these posts are making me happy that I am currently not good enough, and probably won't be for a long time, to play in tournaments.
Ken, You're right about the slow play and about Fernandez. When he use to shoot, we didn't bet whether he was gonna make it or miss it, we'd bet the over under on practice strokes (usually around 40).
As far as the tour not being for the spectators, I think it should be a little more for them and I intend on asking spectators for advice and input on player conduct. When I'm running the chart I can't see or hear the slime ball calling their opponent names while their at the table (as I have witnessed many times as a player) It'll be a little hairy but if the players are aware the audience has a say and it's not just their word against their opponents they might think twice before shocking their counterpart. Was Balking ever a real rule?
I'm taking aim at all the grey areas that have previously gone unchallenged. Abusing equipment (especially the room owners), any unsportsmanlike behavior directed towards opponents (name calling, intimidation lines like you got the 8 if you want to gamble, cell phones or talking to anyone else while your opponent is shooting and as far as any movement in the chair while in your opponents view) I'm also concerned about their conduct while they're not playing but are in the tournament room. Excessive drinking, obvious drug use and bad mouthing the host room, tour or other players. Thanks for your help.
I don't blame you one bit. A tournament should look and sound like something you would enjoy being a part of, not worried about. We'll see what we can do for you.
I think it's a great idea to have a code of conduct. I think rather than the 3-strike method, you could write up the code and make sure every player has one in their hands before play begins. You could state in the code that the player may or may not get a warning, depending on the situation. You have to allow yourself a certain amount of discretion because so many different scenarios can come up. It's hard to keep it all black and white. But you can make it clear that if there is a warning, it will only be given once. The second time they're out. This way, the players know in advance that if they get out of line they can be booted right on the spot without warning. If they know this ahead of time, they will be cautious of their actions.
I used to run weekly tournaments and had guys like Frankie Hernandez, Ginky and the other top players. Once they knew in advance that no misconduct would be tolerated, they just played pool and it became very enjoyable for both players and spectators alike.
One of the things that's very important to control is what goes on on the sidelines during a tournament. No woofing at each other between matches and players can't be trying to match up while there's a tournament going on. It's very distracting to the other players and looks bad to the spectators too.
Joe, As far as I know there's never been a balk rule in pool. The other use of balk was in the early billiard games where you had to drive one of the balls out of the balk area on the table in order to continue your run. I guess they abandoned that game when the runs got up into the thousands.
Thankfully I haven't seen John Fernandez play in about a year. I watched him beat Frankie Hernandez twice I think. The second time they were throwing elbows before the match began. Jonh was practicing and Frankie walked up and tossed a coin on the table upsetting John. They both traded elbows and then started complaining to Pat. The official coin toss hadn't even occurred. Then Tom Seminaro was rolling balls back and forth on a table next to where they were playing and John got mad and told him to stop. He just kept on doing it. You had to do something to keep awake when John played. I'm sure he wrecked Frankie's game that day. Pat watched from across the room and I think John started playing faster after that. I bet Pat had a word with him.
As far as other conduct is concerned I haven't seen much that needs to be adressed. Lisciotti and McCready do get loud but that's part of the show and they do stop when someone complains. (except larry when he's not playing)
Most of the woofing is between the young B+ players and that's usually when they aren't playing and are looking for a game later. Mike is usually around and he doesn't put up with discourteous behavior. Earl's whining is about as bad as it gets and that is usually not aimed at his opponent. Let's face it, we expect it from Earl. He said he's going to bring a Sardo next time he goes to Chelmsford.
04-30-2002, 09:03 PM
Joe T's a player in the NE. I don't want to knock his action, but he's very well known up here.
I actually got a chance to hole up with him for 3 days at Snookers for private lessons!! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif!
Barbara~~~Ah! the memories.. and still has videotape, too...
(sorry Joe, I couldn't resist! /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif! )
Joe is not only teacher, author, player and performer on videotape (like to see those) but he has joined the management team and is now the tournament director on the Joss tour: the biggest tour in the U. S. covering at least 8 states and no doubt soon to be encroaching on Barry's turf in Va. (look out Tommy Kennedy)
Ken in CT
Quote Fran,"I think rather than the 3-strike method, you could write up the code and make sure every player has one in their hands before play begins. You could state in the code that the player may or may not get a warning, depending on the situation. You have to allow yourself a certain amount of discretion because so many different scenarios can come up. It's hard to keep it all black and white. But you can make it clear that if there is a warning, it will only be given once. The second time they're out. This way, the players know in advance that if they get out of line they can be booted right on the spot without warning. If they know this ahead of time, they will be cautious of their actions."
I really agree, I use to run a lot of tournaments and I would never give someone 3 strikes. After one time you sometimes feel your baby sitting some brat that has to have it their way. It can make it a long tournament having to deal with that stuff. I use to pull the person aside and let them know they were not going to disrupt my tournament or room. Once that's inforced most of the problems will go away. Joe, before you call matches, and it's quiet, I would announce your changes. It can be brief but let them know you intend to back it up. If I had something to say, I'd stop all play, no juke box, no talking, a quiet room. The players will respect what you have to say. For the ones that don't, who cares their going to be out the door. I have very strong feelings in this area. Good luck
04-30-2002, 09:38 PM
Ooooo, Micaela introduced the "may be happening at your match soon" talk about a shot clock at our last tourny. She went out and bought two timers. There are a few notoriously slow players that play with our tour and I wouldn't hesitate to give them the 30-second clock in a heartbeat!
Rule is, you figure a round should be done in about 1 1/2 hours. Race to 9 for men, race to 7 for women. A total of 13 racks will happen for the women in a hill-hill match. If 7 racks haven't been completed in 45 minutes, on the clock they go! Of course, if the two players are constantly hooking each other or just missing and leaving bad, there's nothing you can do about that.
Reminds me of one type of tourny Tacony had one time - it was 9-ball, but you had to play a shot or give up ball-in-hand. That is, you couldn't play a safety, you had to shoot the ball. If you missed, you gave your opponent BIH.
Barbara~~~has one player marked from the git-go for the clock!!
First, I didn't realize there were so many tournaments around. And I didn't think there were any problems. I played pool last week for the first time in about 20 years. I did play in a billiard tournament back then. I got slaughtered in my first game of 3 cushion billiards. It was at the IL. Billiard Club. There was never any problems in The IL. Billiard Club. And when I played last week I picked up a free copy of Chalk Talk. I was surprised to see a few local tournaments. But I have been completely away from all pool for about 20 years. It's nice to see so many tournaments around. If I practiced for 20 years I probably could never win one. But it would be interesting to at least watch a few. I just flipped channels and see a men's 7 ball game on. I never saw 7 ball before. I'm sure things will continue to slowly improve in pool. It seems like there are a lot of people like you really putting in time & work to improve things. Thank you to you and everyone else who takes the time to improve the game.
04-30-2002, 11:24 PM
hi joe...mike here. you have the right idea. there are alot of players that come to mind that we both knowvery well. they would hate this type of governing. but them forfeiting just that tournament is not enough in some cases. as an example: when at turning stone for one of mike's tournaments. a player loss his first match and when confronted ans asked if he was going to another one coming up soon by a fan his only reply was "f--k this tournament and f--k this casino as well. this was done right in front of the fans that were ther. maybe 10 or so. for something like that i would put them out for a year. but anyway , here is what i suggest having been to many tournaments all over the east coast. at the players meting warn them that bad mouthing the equipment or their opponent or sharking their opponent in any way will not be tolerated. advise them that this is the only warning they will get. if they screw up then they are out. this happened at the U S Open when a player was bad mouthung the equipment and when the ref and promoter were advised they confronted the player and kindly asked him to leave. one warning is enough. when carlos viera played JR reid at the open JR spit on the floor and talked constantly while carlos was shooting dropping his stick also. anything to shark carlos. None of this behavior should be tolerated and unless you enforce it with an iron hand no one will believe you.. i hope you do it. also stop the deliberate slow play of some players........just a few thoughts..........mike
04-30-2002, 11:33 PM
i have a scenario that happened joe and i believe you are aware of it and want to know what would happen under your new rules. at mike's tournament in quincy mass. when mike was playing Mike Immonen and mike came from behind and tied him at 6 . Mika racked the balls and tried to put the rack back in the holder it fell on the floor and Mika got mad and kicked it across the floor. actually i was surprised that mike did not say anything. and what about larry liscotti and the way he treated evgeny stalev while playing (gambling)him while the tournament was still going on. i feel larry's actions were sickening. calling him BORIS all the time and telling him to go back to the soup lines in russia. will that kind of attitude or actions be alowed.and how about cutting out al the heavy drinking during the tournaments........just some thoughts...mike
05-01-2002, 12:13 AM
The idea of using a card system like soccer is good. I played soccer competively years ago and I can tell you being red-carded bites. One problem though, as with soccer it is the officials decision when a yellow card can be given. I have seen many times when a yellow was given and it should have been a red. This allows that player to continue and get another yellow if they commit an infraction again. This is the solution in my opinion, only one yellow then automatic red. JMO.
05-01-2002, 12:38 AM
Most important thing is to maintain the consistency in the implementation of rules.Violators should be awarded with cement boot treatment.Then they can test their sharking skills with the real sharks.
No worries mates-sharks will teach them how to behave.
You all should know that I haven't really played in about 20 years. I guess anyone can let tournament pressures or ignorance get them booted from 1 tournament. But if someone gets banned or kicked out of 2 or 3 tournaments, they shouldn't be permitted to participate in any of the sactioned tournamets for maybe the rest of the year or tournament season. But I would like to see this and all rules applied to everyone equally, including the pros & leading money winners. I remember attending a few bowling tournaments over 25 years ago. It seemed like back then the pros and regulars were permitted more leniency than the unknowns, spectators and amateurs.
I personally have only seen a couple tournaments on tv. I haven't seen anything objectionable or any problems. But then I probably would like to see rivlaries, within reason, amongst the top players. Even challenges for money games etc afterwards. And it seems like many of these pros are more concerned with playing in tournaments then money games or private games. So the possibility of being suspended from tournament participation for say 6 months or a year, should be enough to keep them in line. But like I said above, I never saw anything objectionable in the few tv tournaments I saw.
05-01-2002, 02:01 AM
I dont know what ind of setting this is but there is a code of cnduct and I'll stay it as briefly as I can-tournament play only:
1-Members must not make any statement that would cause disrepute to a member
2-players will be responsible for for regulations imposedby tournament officials
You must avoid undisciplinary action against fellow opponent, whether abusive language,profanity,sharking,public drunkenness,etc.
4-Tour directors may take any disciplinary action against convicted opponent and restrict their play!
Players shall not address criticism to fellow players
First offense wil be written warning, second and third will be subject to fines!
Tournament officials may penalize any player and players are advised to comply to specific rules and regulations of the event!
Hope that helped!
Carol~strictly tournament player!:)
Joe, your idea is a commendable one. However, even after solidifying the exact code of conduct and enforcement procedures, there still may be problems.
The first relates to the calcutta. If a player is forfeited, what happens to the money that was spent on him in the auction? The easy answer would be to say that the money is forfeited as well, but it won't work out so nicely in the real world. The buyer had nothing to do with the infraction, so why should he be penalized? A possible answer might be, "Well, he should know that if he's buying Player A, who has a bad reputation, this is a risk." But it still gets tricky. People will still buy the "bad boys", because a lot of them play very well, and you're gonna have a tough time explaining why someone just forfeited $400 through no fault of his own.
The other problem is what will happen to tournament winnings if a player is thrown out AFTER he's already in the money? Does he get what he's owed to that point? If so, why? If not, again, try explaining that to him and his buyer in the calcutta.
Joe, as you know, I have a ton of respect for both you and the Joss Tour, so I'd hate to see a bad situation at one of your tournaments. Unfortunately, I can envision a circumstance like this easily escalating into serious violence. You may soon have a conduct code and enforcement procedures, but do you have a plan for dealing with the aftermath?
- Steve --> hates to bring up such things...
Thank You, Joe loving to hear Steve bring up such things.
05-01-2002, 03:20 AM
Your very very welcome-please give my regards to Liz!
Have a wonderful day!
05-01-2002, 06:47 AM
Considering some of the "Personalities" you have to deal with, the following has come to mind. Question, why did the farmer hit the donkey over the head with a baseball bat? Answer, to get his attention!
Subtle, considering the "Personalities" involved, may not work.
Eddie, TV matches are a total different breed. For one thing they are heavily edited and anything objectionable would probably not be shown. Also, the balls are racked by the TD and not even inspected by the breaker. That eliminates 99% of the arguing.
At the Joss events some players such as Hernandez and McCreesh are continually rejecting their opponents racks to the point where the match often cannot continue. The angry exchanges are unpleasant to witness and one of the reasons why pool is not as good a spectator sport as it could be.
In one event McCreesh obected to playing the finals on the featured table where Mike Zuglan had just played. He finally agreed to play there. Pat, the TD at the time, was racking and there was to be no rejecting of racks. Pat racked for Mike to break and walked away. Then McCreesh came up to look at the rack, saw something he didn't like and, as Mike was preparing to break, McCreesh scattered the balls. Mike had to call Pat back to rerack the balls. That's an incident that clearly called for loss of game but there was apparently no reason for Ryan to have thought he would not get away with doing that. If that had been spelled out in advance it would never have happened.
McCreesh didn't like the way McCready was racking and said that if Joe was going to rack instead of Keith that he, Ryan, would still rack when Keith was breaking. Here was the player angrily dictating the terms under which he would play! That kind of talk should have gotten him a loss of game also and if he got mad and wanted to quit with second place let him explain it to whomever bought him in the calcutta.
I think the later matches when they are down to 2 tables should be racked by the TD and any ugly complaining should result in loss of game. I remember in McGirr's we would just call out "rack" and someone would come over to rack. Bring back the old days. At Valley Forge one referree racked for 2 tables and there was no problem.
Ken in CT
Mike it's situations like that, that I would I would like to prepare for ahead of time. At the end of this season I was definately going with the flow, but if I do this job next year I can't allow the players to act the way they have been. I feel if I put out in front of them at the beginning in black and white I won't have as many grey areas to deal with. And hopefully I'll get good player support at the beginning. We'll see what happens.
05-01-2002, 08:59 AM
Unfortunately, you inherited at lousy situation from Pat(why he left?). You have a handful of guys that have ego problems, some that were born A-holes(or at least worked on it most of their life), and some that have habits. Most of what I'm gonna suggest may have been said already, but here goes:
Set ground rules in writing and give to each player.
Enforce whatever you can-
No drinking/drugs, if your obviously F'ed up, you go home.
No tlaking to your opponent or walking around during his/her turn.
No cell phones/pagers during play or taking messages.
1 five minute break allowed per match-sh1t,shower and shave before the match.
Time limit per match, if it goes over, someone go watch to see if it's because of slow play.
The penalty for ANY infraction should be ball in hand to the opponent for the first infraction, second infraction- Yankee, go home!
Eric >my thought's for your penny
05-01-2002, 02:27 PM
You took over the Joss Tour? Ouch! All those egos and attitudes!! Wheeheeeee!!
Listen Joe, not only are you going to have to put your new stuff into writing, but you're also going to have to put on a different face during the tourny. You know probably all the players and may be personal friends with a lot of them. Now you're going to have to be the TD and keep things impersonal and not give in.
But I think that if you get as much as you can down in black and white, that will help since all you'll have to do is point to it. I suggest reading the BCA rule book for examples and suggestions. You'll never eliminate all the grey areas, you'll just have to deal with them as they come up.
Barbara~~~counting her lucky stars with the NEWT gals...
05-01-2002, 02:32 PM
After reading through this thread, I believe that all the points that come to mind have been covered. In the end, common sense should rule. Players and spectators know the type of behavior that should not be tolerated.
I don't think that you have to go as far as using cards. As long as you are upfront with what will not be tolerated and enforce it consistently, you will get closer to resolving the issue. Once players see examples made of others, they will modify their behavior, but will continue to walk the line.
In the end, I believe that any sign of disrespect to the organization, venue, players and/or spectators should not be tolerated and offenders should be suspended and possibly fined before being allowed to participate again.
If you are bidding on a player in a calcutta who is an a- hole then you take your own risk. We all know who we are bidding on. You don't have an arguement. Secondly if all players are informed at the players meeting of the risks involved in sharking and poor behavior and then go ahead and do what they know is wrong then why do they deserve any reward? If you get kicked out you obviously forfeit any rewards.
05-01-2002, 05:10 PM
It wouldn't be a bad idea to get Tournament Directors and promoters on the same page all the time either..
A code of conduct for the players is only effective if the promoters and Tournament Directors, Refs and other officials can enforce them and be consistant at all the tournaments.
Promoters posting all payouts and totals after the signups close. Refs and TDs consulting about rules with the players before hand (players meetings prio to tournament) can be eliminated if the rules are the same everywhere.
Please check out the newly formed UPA web site http://www.upatour.com/ for proposals by the rules committee for code of conduct emposed by the players for the players.
05-02-2002, 04:08 AM
DUCT TAPE has many uses too!LMAO!
05-02-2002, 05:21 AM
Are n`t u from Providence,RI ? One day I was in Snookers looking for u and they said u left for the day. Don`t try to figure out who I am.I am no body. I am not from North East.Cheers
05-02-2002, 05:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>...and is now the tournament director on the Joss tour<hr></blockquote>
In that case, he is in the position of implementing and enforcing his ideas. I applaud the efforts and wish you the best of luck. Keep us updated on the response from the players the first time you "blow the whistle and send one to the sidelines."
05-02-2002, 06:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Vagabond:</font><hr> Don`t try to figure out who I am.I am no body. I am not from North East.Cheers
Vagabond, you may be half way around the world, but you are still very mysterious. I know your not going to tell us anything, but you do facinate me. I can not wait to read the book, when you decide to write it. LOL.
Rich R.~~~doesn't read many books, but would make an exception.
05-02-2002, 06:53 AM
I am appalled at the harshness of the penalties that many posters have suggested so far. Penalties should be of a nature that they cause a measurable but small impact on the game. Look at the penalties imposed in other sports for guidance, particularly sports played by individuals, not teams, where the ejection of one player does not forfeit the whole game or match.
Forfeiting a whole game or a match in a pool tournement are penalties that should be reserved only for extremely serious or multiple infractions. And if fines are to be imposed, they should be commensurate with the amount of money the players make at the sport. Note that most players in a pool tournement earn nothing for their time, expenses, and efforts.
05-02-2002, 08:19 AM
I believe your on the right track here Joe. There needs to be some things in black or white for players to abide by. There should be a list of things that allow you, the T.D., to eject the player from the tournament on the spot. A good example would be hard evidence of a player dumping a match OR breaking his stick intentionally during a match. Also, There should be a list of fouls that have two stikes...such as not staying in your seat when your not shooting or using loud profanity. I know these rules might sound harsh to some but they would help the game of pool.
Maybe you can think of it from another perspective, Tom. You're really not asking much of the players at a tournament by asking them to keep themselves in check and focus on just playing pool. You show up, pay your entry fee, wait for your match to be called and then you play to the best of your ability. It's not a social function, although many people would like it to be. It's a competition and should be respected by the players and spectators as such.
Anyone who can't follow those simple rules really doesn't belong there.
05-02-2002, 10:09 AM
Joe- How about starting tournaments on time period! I mean i cant tell you how many times i've heard from the TD-"OK Folks So and So just called, he is stuck in traffic and we are gonna delay the start a bit to give him some time to get here"
Ever hear of this in Golf?? or any other sport?? Start the tournament and he still has the 15 minute forfeit period!
05-03-2002, 01:04 AM
I just say if your going to have a code of conduct. Enforce it. Some of these players at tourney's think there hot stuff. The problem with this is they create a scene sometimes to get attention. All I want from an opponent or tourney player is to let me shoot in peace.
Make it equal for everyone and don't play favorites. I've seen it before and not suggesting you would. Make the event run straight up and proper attire. It seems every tourney I go to at the end. Kids are running around and players bringing infants in to cry. Cell phones and the director makes the announcements and doesn't do diddly.
Good luck Joe, you have a big job ahead of you.
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