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KingofCrown
05-07-2004, 07:56 AM
I appologize if this question has been asked before.

Why dont women and men compete in the same pool leagues, why are there separate leagues? I can tell you why for almost every sport out there but for Billiards? It is a game of skill/aim the only factor of strength i would guess is for breaking but that cant be the only reason women and men are in separate leagues.

Wally_in_Cincy
05-07-2004, 08:00 AM
same reason golf and tennis are separate

randyg
05-07-2004, 08:27 AM
Around here they do!...randyg

Popcorn
05-07-2004, 08:49 AM
Except in a scotch doubles or something, I don't think it is a good idea. Guys want to be with the guys and the women want to be with the women. Nothing to do with their different skills at that level I don't think, one can play just as well as the other. But who wants to socialize with someone else's spouse. The ones that are not married or in a relationship don't want to feel like they have to act like they are on a date when they are out to have some fun playing pool. Like it or not, men and women are different. I once drew a woman who entered a tournament, (Good player by the way), she walk over to me after the match to tell me in my face I was a creep. It was because I did not say good shot a few times during the match and acknowledge her play. She actually said I should have given her a chance, (Score 11 to 1), because her children had come to watch. I only mention this because in 40 + years of playing with men, No man has ever called me names because I didn't say nice shot. I am married to one and they are different animals.

SPetty
05-07-2004, 09:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>Guys want to be with the guys and the women want to be with the women. <hr /></blockquote>Speak for yourself, guy. This isn't a universally true statement.

pooltchr
05-07-2004, 09:07 AM
Our leagues are all mixed as well. My team has 4 males and 2 females, one of which is my wife. We are all good friends and have a great time playing together. Other teams have couples, singles, male and female. It seems to work very well for everyone. Personally, I think the ladies help to keep things a bit more civil than what might be if it were all guys.
JMHO

Popcorn
05-07-2004, 09:17 AM
I kind of think I am right, when my wife is out with her girlfriends, they don't want the husbands around. I can see a few women playing on a men's league and enjoying it, but I think they would be in the minority. Who want to bunch of guys hitting on them and it would happen. Ever work in an office?

KingofCrown
05-07-2004, 09:21 AM
"same reason golf and tennis are separate "


What? No that is completly false. Strength/Speed factor into those sports way more so than billiards.

Golf? The top male/female players in the world can probably put the ball anywhere they want on most holes. However, the majority of male players will almost always be able to outdrive the female players therefor placing there ball closer to the hole. Some people will say strength does not factor into it, thats ridiculous. Take 2 people, 1 normal guy and 1 guy athetically built, both use the same swing/technique/club and the stronger guy will drive it further.

Tennis, this is a mix of both strength and speed.

Billiards, the only time you are going to hit hard enough where strength would factor in is when you are breaking.


RandyG, I know you are extremely experienced and well qualifed billiards player, what is your opinion on this?

Rich R.
05-07-2004, 09:27 AM
I'm not sure what "leagues" you are talking about.

In my area, there are a lot of APA leagues, some TAP leagues and, to my knowledge, only one BCA league. However, all are coed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Also, the largest regional tour, in this area, the Planet Pool Tour, has "open" tournaments, in which both men and women compete, however, they also have women only tournaments.

Although they are not in my area, I also believe the Joss Tour events are open to both men and women.

9 Ball Girl
05-07-2004, 09:29 AM
Didn't men beyotch when Jean Balukas tried or played with them? I think maybe an ego thing. In other words women might see it as a challenge where men might see it as a threat? Of course I could be wrong. Karen Corr sometimes plays in the Joss tournament (majority are men) and I know she won it at least once.

Predator314
05-07-2004, 09:34 AM
I play in a "Special Event" tournament sometimes down in Tenessee. I wasn't able to make it to the last one, but I was checking the results and a woman won that tournament:

http://www.corner-pocket.com/splevent.htm

She's a pretty dang good shooter, works hard on her game. She plays in a lot of the WPBA events. She has no problem playing with guys and had no problem taking my money last year when I "staked" one of my friends against her.

Chris Cass
05-07-2004, 09:51 AM
Thanks Popcorn,

My wife works as a secretary. Now, I'm going to drill her tonight. Now, where did I put that heat lamp? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~I think the tables are turning. I get hit on all the time and I look like something the, cat dragged in. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif maybe after seeing the wedding ring? They think I'd be that good, cheap, one night stand. HAHAHAHAHAHA I am kinda hot you know? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA sure, I'm no Jimmy B. and I don't have the legs like that Barry Szamboti or that flowing black sexy hair like Fred A., but I've got style. HAHAHAHAHAHAA I'm runnin, I'm runnin. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
05-07-2004, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KingofCrown:</font><hr>...Why dont women and men compete in the same pool leagues, why are there separate leagues?... <hr /></blockquote>

I may have misunderstood your question. For some reason I thought you were referring to the pro players. Some type of paradigm clouded my thinking.

Men and women compete together in leagues everywhere. The APA however has a separate division for women only. Their main division is "open". Men or women may compete in it.

NBC-BOB
05-07-2004, 10:58 AM
I've been playing and watching this sport for 40 yrs.In the beginning there was such a big difference, between the level of play between the sexes, that it wasn't even competive. Now I think that's changed and I would love to see, some competion between the men &amp; women.I recall reading an article in some sports mag, where they did a study of the difference's between men &amp; women in sports, and as I recall, they measured and found that in the men,there testerone level's changed quite a bit depending on how good or bad they were playing.I guess there's still a lot that the medical profession has to learn about the differences.Anyway all I can say is the women are playing great these days, and I for one would love to see them compete!

catscradle
05-07-2004, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> Didn't men beyotch when Jean Balukas tried or played with them? ... <hr /></blockquote>

That was then, this is now. I don't think very many men would object and I can't think of too many men only tournaments.

KingofCrown
05-07-2004, 12:00 PM
i was referring to professional leagues.

I guess im referring to the fact that everytime i watch billiards on ESPN its always same genders playing each other for some title or other.

I want to see alison F play whoever the top male player is these days.. I would like to see pros play teams (2v2) for fun and in leagues.

Popcorn
05-07-2004, 12:59 PM
The problems with the Jean thing had nothing to do with egos. She was always on good terms with everybody, there was more to it. You are being silly thinking anyone really cared if they drew Jean. Although she played well and often beat name players, in reality you would feel pretty good seeing her name next to yours, she was one of the softer draws. Would you rather be playing Jean or Hopkins, don't be silly. This is no incitement of her abilities, but you have to live in the real world. Her lifetime high run in straight pool, can be often be bested on a daily basis by a top mens straight pool player. Her 9-ball game put her around that of a good man player well below a champion man player. That is just reality.

9 Ball Girl
05-07-2004, 01:31 PM
Silly perhaps. But from the stories that she's told me, there were some--not all-that had the ego problem thing.

mworkman
05-07-2004, 03:42 PM
We have both a mixed league and a Womens league. We don't have strictly a mens league as the women have strictly a women's league. I don't have a problem with this. The women in our league all seem nice and are good sports. I think it is thier right to compete at the highest level in our area to test thier skills. I have never heard a complaint from the guys that we allow the women to play with us.

Vagabond
05-08-2004, 12:08 PM
I like to hang around/play with women.cheers
vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
05-08-2004, 01:01 PM
Well, let me think about this one. Nope, never heard anything different about you Vagabond. Yep, your moving in on my NYC girls. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dg-in-centralpa
05-08-2004, 05:56 PM
I don't know C.C., after meeting you in VF I can see why they hit on you. I, on the other hand, am the classic average joe, mid 40's, slightly overweight(due to medication), going gray, just an average looking guy.

DG - jmho

Gayle in MD
05-09-2004, 09:29 AM
HI there,
When I was new on the board, I posed the very same question. At that time there were very different responses from some of the men. The discussion became very heated, and I ended up feeling that I had inadvertantly opened a can of worms, so to speak.

Anyway, I think it would be interesting to see a pro women team against play a pro men team, the way the Mosconi Cup is arranged.

Seeing any pool on TV is great, but it could be so much more interesting. For one thing, I for one would enjoy watching not only men shooting against women, but also seeing many more of the matches played between the top players and the up and coming players which preceed the finals. Watching the same three or four women play all the time is getting a little old.

Only present pro players or past pro players as commentators would be a great improvment.

More overhead shots which reveal side english angles, and from behind shots for high and low english, basically, some pool playing camerapersons, would be of great interest to me.

More information about the players, more interviews, not only the top players, but the semi pro players would be interesting.

There is just so much, much more than I state here, which would make watching pool on TV more interesting. We need more find the pool addicts in the entertainment and TV industry. It would be great to compile a list of entertainers and producers which are interested in our great sport, and send them our suggestions for building pool interest, and increasing television coverage, and viewership.

Gayle in Maryland, definately an addict... /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

randyg
05-09-2004, 10:07 AM
KingofCrown: Thanks for asking. In school we find that proper mechanics (such as balance and stroke) produce much more speed than muscle alone.

I find this also true on the golf course. Those little guys drive just as far as the average golfers.

It's not about POWER, it's all about "Potential Energy vs Efficient Energy" applied....randyg

St Paul Gal
05-10-2004, 12:08 PM
In the Twin Cities, separate men's/women's league quit happening close to 20 years ago.

There are still some separate leagues in out-state MN, but you're right - there is no reason why they should be split up.

The caliber of play here has risen substantially as a result.

spg

Scott Lee
05-10-2004, 05:11 PM
You're talking apples and oranges here. ALL of the national amateur leagues (APA, BCA, VNEA, TAP, etc) are "open" leagues, and the teams may consist of all men, all women, or usually are mixed. All of the leagues also have "women's" divisions as well, where teams are made up entirely of women. In the pro ranks, the women have made a separation from the men many years ago, and to their credit, have grown their professional organization to the point where they have much more exposure to the mainstream, than the men pros do. Billiards is a non-gender-specific sport. There is NO strategic advantage a man has over a woman...even in breaking. Strength is not required to perfect a good break. Neither is strength a factor in golf drives. There is a young Hawaiian girl (16) who regularly drives the ball 300+ yards, and will be not only competing with the men someday, but likely beating them as well. Pool, like golf, is about speed and timing...using the weight of the club/cue, and perfecting a perfect throwing motion. It has nothing to do with weight of the cue/club, any more than the size or proportions of the user. Women are not as excelled at pool (YET) because they have not had the same length of time of exposure to the sport. For decades men told the women they couldn't play, or weren't "good enough" to play against them. This is an age old argument that has been debated here many times before. When the women have been playing for 40-50 years, you'll see men and women playing at an even rate of skill, imo. Some of them (i.e.: Karen Corr) have already shown they can not only compete with tougher male pros, but beat them in competition as well. The women, by-in-large, have improved their skills dramatically in the past 10 years...somewhat largely due to the 'invasion' (LOL) of the British snooker players! Alison and Karen (among others) have raised the bar for the sport as a whole, and particularly for up and coming women players. I have a female student (a Brit, btw) who is coming to MT for 4 days of intensive instruction in 3 weeks. Her ambition is not only to be the top female, but to go further, and be the first female competitor in the WPC! Now that's a STRONG goal, but certainly reasonable (in time), with the right dedication and practice! I agree that men and women pros should be, and likely WILL be, playing against each other before the end of this decade! I certainly hope so!

Scott Lee

Frank_Glenn
05-10-2004, 05:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> Silly perhaps. But from the stories that she's told me, there were some--not all-that had the ego problem thing. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I too have heard these stories (but not from her).

Vagabond
05-10-2004, 08:08 PM
Howdy Chris,
Who u think in NY I am moving....
Cheers
Vagabond

raistlin
05-15-2004, 11:12 PM
Just as a little aside: I have seen some webcasts of a WPBA tour event from 6 years ago (roughly). I have also just recently seen some webcasts of more recent (2003) events.

The difference in standard of play is just incredible. The old: no runouts, ordinary position, lots of missing. The new: runouts, banks, kicks, good safety (not brilliant, but good), and just general attitude at the table.

If a female player got serious and started to do the road/air miles around the US/Europe/Phillipines and played everyone with a cue in their hand, you would see that women can be dangerous in an open tournament.

I am with Scott, it is only a matter of time before some female player breaks through into the mens tournaments and starts whooping some backside. Here's hoping that the Brit player Scott mentioned (actually Australian, not British! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif) will be the player to do it. I am a bit bias about this as the player in question is also my wife! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Good rolls y'all

Dave Q

Scott Lee
05-16-2004, 12:08 PM
Righto Dave! Now that I know THAT, I'll be stocking the poolroom with Foster's for when Yvonne comes in just two short weeks! Better get some "shrimp on the barbie" too! LOL

Scott Lee