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View Full Version : Push Out - tricky shot idea



tateuts
05-07-2004, 09:02 AM
Here's a shot I've been working on. I haven't had the chance to use it yet, but I can't wait.

Your opponent breaks, does not make a ball, leaves the one near the corner, and you are hooked.

You push out to this position:

START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2

)END

WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/)

They face a difficult one rail bank or a long jump shot. You will get this shot back 90% of the time, and if you don't, you will probably be shooting again very soon anyway.

Here's the shot I'm practicing.

START(
%Aq3Z4%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%_o1Z4%`O6Z2%aH6X7
)END

A soft controlled masse. I aim just past the edge of the 8 with about 30 degree elevated cue (with left english), and hit the shot relatively soft. After a little practice, I got the cue ball to straighten up before it hits the rail and can pull this off pretty consistently. You can also safe off this shot if you want by hitting it a little harder and hitting the rail just before the one ball or the outside edge of the one ball.

Anyway, since there's not much room for error it's a pretty good way of practicing controlled masse shots.

Chris

crawdaddio
05-07-2004, 09:21 AM
That's a good one.

Eric.
05-07-2004, 09:48 AM
Personally, I feel the Masse can be dicey to use in a match. If you hit it too soft, you may masse into the 8 and if you hit it too hard, you might masse into the long rail and kick into the 3.

IMO, I would try to kick for the 1 like this:

START(
%Aq3Z4%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%Qm3U2%Rm3N7%SC3Y8%W\7D6%XE3[1%Yo3X6%Z^4D0%eA7a4%_o1Z4%`O6Z2
%aH6X7
)END

The 1 is near the corner pocket and rail making it a somewhat higher hit/makeable shot and the position of the 2 is such that you could have a good chance to run out if the 1 drops.


Eric >Kickmeister?

tateuts
05-07-2004, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> Personally, I feel the Masse can be dicey to use in a match. IMO, I would try to kick for the 1 like this...


Eric &gt;Kickmeister? <hr /></blockquote>

That's exactly why this is a great push out. You probably would give this shot back to me, right? If I can make it or get safe on it 75% of the time, I gotta like it.

Then, you would never give me the shot after that, and you could kick at it all you want as far as I'm concerned.

Chris

Eric.
05-07-2004, 10:23 AM
What I was saying is:

1. I would take the shot 100% of the time with that layout.

2. I prefer the kick. With reverse spin, the kick, IMO, is a better percentage than to masse around 2 balls. It's easy to hit the 1 and possibly make it.


Eric

Chris Cass
05-07-2004, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>
You push out to this position:

START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2

)END

WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/)

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%UD7Y5%VG2X5%Wn8Z6%XC4Z2%eC5a4
)END


START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%Ui8[1%VS8Y0%Wo2Z3%Xk0[4%eB4b1%_S5X1%`N7S7%aI3X0
)END

START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%UX5D3%VH9W5%WY9F4%XZ4[0%YF3Z7%ZG6X8%]o2Y0%^Y6C5%eB9`9
)END

Long as your having fun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

piglit
05-07-2004, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>
You push out to this position:

START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2

)END

WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/)

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%UD7Y5%VG2X5%Wn8Z6%XC4Z2%eC5a4
)END


START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%Ui8[1%VS8Y0%Wo2Z3%Xk0[4%eB4b1%_S5X1%`N7S7%aI3X0
)END

START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%UX5D3%VH9W5%WY9F4%XZ4[0%YF3Z7%ZG6X8%]o2Y0%^Y6C5%eB9`9
)END

Long as your having fun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

Probably lots more fun to post than to read... you call that fun?

-pigi

phelix
05-07-2004, 01:02 PM
hi all im new to this forumand pretty new to the game. what does all that code mean. if you ppl dont mind me asking.

i now im a newbie, but its like throwing a shoe,reallly who throws a shoe /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
05-07-2004, 01:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phelix:</font><hr> hi all im new to this forumand pretty new to the game. what does all that code mean. if you ppl dont mind me asking.

i now im a newbie, but its like throwing a shoe,reallly who throws a shoe /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

copy the code to your clipboard

go here http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html (you'll have to download shockwave)

you will see a pool table. at the bottom right you will see copy and paste. click paste and answer yes

Nightstalker
05-07-2004, 01:25 PM
Actually, it is "ok". Semantics, I know. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Hey, how do you set the table up? You know, like put the arrows between the balls and stuff? I messed aroudn with it a little bit but ran into trouble when I wanted to draw the dumb arrows lol. TIA

EDIT: I figured it out, lol. Forgetaboutit. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
05-07-2004, 01:28 PM
you drag and drop the balls with your left mouse button

same with the arrows. grab 'em by the ends

Eric.
05-07-2004, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nightstalker:</font><hr> Forgetaboutit. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Around here it's pronounced "Fugetaboudit".


Eric

haywood
05-07-2004, 01:48 PM
I'm surprised someone didn't offer the idea of the masse around the eight ball on the left side when facing it, sort of like aiming at the 2, jacked up with right english. To me, that's a higher % shot because it could work 3 ways.

START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%Qm3U2%Rm3N7%SC3Y8%Wo9Z7%Xm2[3%Ys0[5%Zq6Z7%eC7a4%bl6[1%c[0V6
%dH6X1
)END

START(
%Aq0Z5%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%Qm3U2%Rm3N7%SC3Y8%eC7a4%_o5Z2%`\1V4%aH7X1
)END

START(
%Aq1Z6%Bp1F3%C\8X7%DG2L4%EU0E5%Fm8P9%Gh2F1%HN7X8%I N5I5%PH2X2
%Qm3U2%Rm3N7%SC3Y8%Wq6Y9%Xs1X6%Yo5P3%Zp6Z1%eC7a4%_ r9X4%`W6V6
%aI1W8%bf0[2%cn6Z1%dq2Y8
)END

any thoughts?

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
05-07-2004, 01:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote haywood:</font><hr> I'm surprised someone didn't offer the idea of the masse around the eight ball on the left side .....<hr /></blockquote>

I was gonna say that but these guys play better than me so I didn't open my yap /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I have practiced that shot. I even make it sometimes.

Nightstalker
05-07-2004, 01:54 PM
My captain wanted me to try this last night:

START(
%HC8Y9%I\1E1%JT8Y3%NQ3W1%PO0Y1%QP8X7%Rb8N7%SV1P4%T K5R3%Up4Z6
%VV1Y3%WS5V3%XZ2K8%Y]8H0%Zj8X2%[E2X4%\S9M7%]R6Y4%^P0Y2
)END

I ended up trying this instead because I pulled the CB back after the 10 ball:

START(
%HC8Y9%I\1E1%JT8Y3%NQ3W1%PO0Y1%QP8X7%RL6V3%SZ1O0%T I1R2%Up4Z6
%VV1Y3%W\2G7%XY8V5%YO3W2%ZJ5W1%[E2X4%\V1L4%]R6Y4%^P0Y2
)END

Thoughts?

Eric.
05-07-2004, 01:54 PM
Depends on how good your Masse stroke is.

I don't have great control over the Masse. Using that, I would either over spin it, hitting too far before the 1 or underspin it into the 3.

FWIW, your 3 scenarios are the same 3 outcomes I was hoping for with the kick.

Eric

DMoney1644
05-07-2004, 02:01 PM
personally, i'd do it the first way CC diagrammed. just shoot it at the close endrail with a little right english. much easier than masse in my opinion.

David &lt;--- can't masse worth a donkey turd.

Nightstalker
05-07-2004, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DMoney1644:</font><hr> personally, i'd do it the first way CC diagrammed. just shoot it at the close endrail with a little right english. much easier than masse in my opinion.

David &lt;--- can't masse worth a donkey turd. <hr /></blockquote>
I have to agree, this is still tough, but much more feasible IMO. I also can't masse worth a poop. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

rocky
05-07-2004, 02:10 PM
I wouldnt have pushed to there in the first place. If you did I would let you have that shot all day, I dont mind cleaning up behind you.

Nightstalker
05-07-2004, 02:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rocky:</font><hr> I wouldnt have pushed to there in the first place. If you did I would let you have that shot all day, I dont mind cleaning up behind you. <hr /></blockquote>
That's right, although that short rail kick might work if I had to choose to shoot that or pass it you bet your butt I would pass on it.

Rod
05-07-2004, 04:34 PM
Chris,

It looks like the 8 can be jumped without hitting the three, or if necessary a touch of left. At any rate that shot wouldn't concern me near as much as would the push. If your off there it could leave a duck or possibly the shot you diagramed and of course going to a rail.

Where were you hooked to begin with? Like I said it seems to me the push is the most critical. In all probability getting back that same angle might take a long time. I know it doesn't have to be exact but when your fairly close to a ball only a slight difference can make a big difference.

Another thought that comes to mind is the talent level of an opponent. That and having the c/b respond like it does on the home table due to table conditions. Just a couple of thoughts.

Rod

tateuts
05-07-2004, 04:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote haywood:</font><hr> I'm surprised someone didn't offer the idea of the masse around the eight ball on the left side when facing it, sort of like aiming at the 2, jacked up with right english. To me, that's a higher % shot because it could work 3 ways.

<hr /></blockquote>

You guys are missing the point! If you are playing a great player who breaks and leaves the one ball hanging and hooks you pretty bad, I don't like your chances in that game. There's nowhere to push to because the one is hanging in the hole, or you will have to push to a place where your opponent will lay a great hook on you.

If this were just a straight hook (not a push out) the best way to play the shot would be the one rail kick that Eric and Chris Cass diagrammed. You would be playing (hoping like hell) to make it. Going around the eight the other way with masse is difficult because the masse could "take" before you get to the 3 and hit it, or you would have to go way around with a lot of masse (like CC also showed) which is hard to control, plus it's almost a sure scratch to hit the far rail first.

But being that it's a push out, and I know you are an excellent player, I want to give you a very tough shot that you will give back to me. Then I want to get to the table and make it and run out at best, or hook you at next best. This is a shot that even good players won't necessarily "see" and unless they too practice it, won't attempt.

If you just try the shot I diagrammed, hit it softly with the cue elevated only about 30 degrees, the cue ball curves very gently and quickly and then rolls straight. It's actually a pretty easy shot - it just takes a little practice.

Most players hit masse shots way too hard. They can't control the cue ball well enough that way because it slides out so far and the english doesn't "take". In any case, this shot is great practice for the soft masse because there is no room for error.

Chris

tateuts
05-07-2004, 06:50 PM
I would only attempt this if I could push the cue ball into position accurately - preferably coming off a ball or the short rail.

I play a couple of guys who hang the one up without making a ball and leaving the cueball hooked more than I can believe, so I'm looking for some weapons to use in this situation.

Chris

JDB
05-07-2004, 08:29 PM
<hr /></blockquote>You guys are missing the point! <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think anyone is really missing the point. Everyone has their preferences. I think Eric's suggestion is a 90% hit proposition and a 60% make proposition. With the 2 ball right there in the other corner I think it is the way to go.

Maybe you can hit the ball 90% with a better make ratio your way, but I would go the other way because I think the hit ratio is higher, although the make ratio is probably lower.

Regardless, if someone pushed out to that position, I would definitely take the shot and not pass to my opponent.

Wally_in_Cincy
05-08-2004, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>...You guys are missing the point....<hr /></blockquote>

Don't feel bad. Folks miss my point often, despite my thoughtful and eloquent posts /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I see what you are saying. If you feel comfortable with a particular shot it's fun to whip it out on an unsuspecting opponent.

I'll try that one tonight and see what happens.

Chris Cass
05-08-2004, 09:00 AM
I'm sorry Piglit,

I'm confused as to what your point is? I'm a little slow this morning. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif My point was there's many ways to make or hit and play safe with this roll out. I just don't think it's a 90% shot myself. I think the masse is about his best choice and that isn't an 90% shot imho. You and I both know this ball is going to come firing off the second rail after you do make contact with the ob in question. Speed is critical over making the ball. Some might feel as I do. I would rather push out to a jump or a bank. Although my masse isn't bad but I concider my opponents skill level, when the roll out is concerned. Who am I to stop someone from having fun?


Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
05-08-2004, 09:11 AM
Hi and welcome Phelix,

The code is a code used to demonstrate a layout on a pool table called Wei. You must download it to save it in your favorites. It's free and although not perfect it'll give you a good idea what someone is trying to say.

I'm so bad at this I wish someone else would explain it. First you click on the code till it all turns blue. Then, right click the mouse till a box of choices comes up. Hit copy.

Then, click on the Wei. The table will light up then go to paste and click paste. Then, yes, yes and it's there. To set up your own then, hit Wei and drag the balls around till you get what you want and click copy. Then, go to Wei and hit paste.

See, I know I make no sence. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

JDB
05-08-2004, 08:13 PM
I gave this a try today and by kicking right above the side pocket (ie., Eric's suggested shot), I made a legal hit 8 out of 10 times and made the ball 6 of those times.

The misses were really bad shots. I think if I tried it a hundred times I would definitely be in the 90% hit range and probably above the 60% make range.

Chris Cass
05-09-2004, 12:47 AM
Hi Haywood,

I wouldn't think of it myself. My skill level isn't that good. LOL I would more than likely jump over the 8 ball and kick the ball in the corner. The reason I like the jump is the ability to go straight and I know where to hit also. I can do the masse and other shots but I go by the odds of me making the ball at my speed or level.

All these shots are fun but for the doe. I want to win. I have to know myself better and my capabilities even more. That what makes this shot for me a shoe in with the jump kick.

Good thoughts though. I like to think of all the possibilities before I decide which way is best for me. The only reason I didn't offer what you saw was I know my odds on that shot and it don't look good. LOLLOL Nothing wrong with this roll out but I wouldn't want to leave some of the players I play with that shot. I know they wouldn't give it back. I leave them what I wouldn't want myself. Then, if they give it back I already know what I must do to get back to the table. Moreso than not it's a safe, for me.

Regards,

C.C.