View Full Version : 11 rail shot experiment
05-10-2004, 04:34 PM
I made a comment in a previous thread that has since been deleted regarding the 11 rail shot. I said I saw a guy do it with silicone spray on the cue ball. I decided to try it and what do you think, I was able to hit the 8th rail on the short rail and the 9th on the long rail with the cue ball stopping in the middle of the table short of the 10th and 11th. Two things seem to happen, 1. The cue ball will go very long because it can't pick up english off the rails as it goes around the table. 2. Because the cue ball is so slippery I guess, it stays on the table no matter how hard you hit it, it doesn't want to climb the rail. I am not saying this is what he does, but on a faster table then mine and with a more powerful stroke then I have it is not that difficult to do. In just a few tries I came only a few feet short myself. As long as you can get to the short rail on the 8th rail, hit hard enough you will make it. I know a lot of players with powerful strokes I am sure could do it.
05-10-2004, 05:26 PM
I have a fast table and can make the 9 rails but no way is the cueball going to make 11 without doing something. Problem is the cue ball loses a lot of momentum on the second rail so even if you smash it harder , I don't think there is enough rebound momentum normally to keep it going.
I'm going to try car wax on the cue ball tonight. I tried WD40 but it did nothing.
When you look at the Fast Larry's video, the cueball makes the last 4 rails with almost no speed on it. I think he tricked up the table by doing something to the cloth. I wonder if he could have spray starched and ironed the cloth?
05-10-2004, 05:37 PM
There is one other possibility. What if the table were not level? What if the side of the table opposite the shooter was tilted downward enough so that if you made 9 rails, the table roll would guarantee 11 rails?
05-10-2004, 05:39 PM
When you hit the 8th and 9th rails what rails are you getting? If you can get it to the short rail on the 8th rail you have a chance otherwise the cueball has reverse on it, when it hits 8 and dies.
05-10-2004, 05:46 PM
I've done it both ways - neither had enough speed to get more than a foot or so off the short rail.
Here's another copy of the video - look how his ball is moving so slow I think the table's tilted:
11 Rail Bank (http://www.fastlarrypool.com/11RailShot.wmv)
05-10-2004, 05:52 PM
You know, if you really want to amaze your friends you can do amazing things with the cue ball and silicone spray. Talk about draw and masse. We once trapped a guy with silicone spray. He was betting on cutting in a frozen ball on the end rail with the cue ball on the spot. We put some silicone spray on the ball and he could not get enough spin off the rail to cut it in. It would come close but never got to the pocket. I will go ahead and tell you who the guy was, it was a guy named Gene Cooper (Gene the Machine). He was trying to hustle us on the shot and got taken. He was a pretty nice guy, I wonder if he is still around, he may even read this board. He was the second best bar table player I have seen behind Joe Salazar
05-10-2004, 06:11 PM
I watched it several times and he is shooting across the score keeper and hitting through the second diamond. I went in and just tried it exactly the way he is doing it and with the slippery ball. I have it going almost every time but never with the regular cue ball. On one shot I hit between the second diamond and pocket on the fifth rail. I would say he has to be doing something to the cue ball get that unnatural angle. You know when the magician says to the guy "Have we ever met?" he is not always telling the truth when he say no.
05-10-2004, 06:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You know, if you really want to amaze your friends you can do amazing things with the cue ball and silicone spray. Talk about draw and masse. We once trapped a guy with silicone spray. He was betting on cutting in a frozen ball on the end rail with the cue ball on the spot. We put some silicone spray on the ball and he could not get enough spin off the rail to cut it in. It would come close but never got to the pocket. I will go ahead and tell you who the guy was, it was a guy named Gene Cooper (Gene the Machine). He was trying to hustle us on the shot and got taken. He was a pretty nice guy, I wonder if he is still around, he may even read this board. He was the second best bar table player I have seen behind Joe Salazar <hr /></blockquote>
Ha! I'll try that.
On this shot, I tried wax and different cue ball weights. The problem is the harder I hit the cue ball, the more likely it was to hit the 8th long rail instead of the short rail. I tried different angles etc. - like you said, there is something not right here because the cue ball tracks differently.
I literally smashed the cue ball on some shots and there are diminishing returns. The rail collapses and can't rebound properly - so the cue ball doesn't go any further.
05-11-2004, 05:54 AM
WTF, why did the other 11 rail bank thread get deleted? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
05-11-2004, 06:21 AM
Now you got me getting out my cue and tonight at work I'll be up to no good. Chemicals here I come. For the ball of course. LOL
This will be done on 860. Let you know tomorrow guys.
C.C.~~not normally a ball banger but for the sake of science. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Where the heck is Spidey?
05-11-2004, 07:10 AM
Good, let us know what you come up with Chris. Thanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif
05-11-2004, 11:51 AM
If you turn up the sound while watching this video clip, you can hear two rails being snorted in addition to the eleven that are hit!
05-11-2004, 12:02 PM
When I click on the link to see your post I got directed to a porn site.?????
05-11-2004, 12:05 PM
It worked fine for me, no porn site. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
05-11-2004, 12:28 PM
I just tried it again twice and each time it took me to something called hot links. It was a pop up I think.
05-11-2004, 01:59 PM
I didn't get any porn either. Was it any good? J/K /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
05-11-2004, 02:11 PM
I hit CAD quick and end task before it can get open. My wife got on a porn site the other night trying to get on the Weather Channel web site. It was almost spelled the same and we may have picked up some spy ware. I am going to run the spy ware thing I have and see what happens. I just tried it again and the same thing happened, Strange.
05-11-2004, 02:19 PM
Popcorn you might have soem adware which generates random porno pop-ups. Better run some scans quick!
Here is a few just in case.
1. Adaware http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/
2. Spybot http://spybot.eon.net.au/index.php?lang=en&page=download
3. Housecall http://housecall.trendmicro.com/housecall/start_corp.asp
4. CWshredder http://www.spywareinfo.com/~merijn/cwschronicles.html
5. Stinger http://vil.nai.com/vil/stinger/
05-11-2004, 03:43 PM
My daugther got something like that. It even changed the browser. Everthing you did launched another porn site. I had a tuff time getting rid of it. I used a spyware removal program.
I can get to the site but it always times out before playing the video. Maybe the shot is in the box of stuff he sent me. After waiting around 8 months for him to send the tape I paid for and my having to inform eveyone in the business that he does not honor his committments I just threw the package on the floor. It didn't explode but if I ever see it again I will kick it under the table where it isn't visible. I'm sick of hearing of this guy and just wish everyone would let this sleeping dog lie.
Ken in CT
05-11-2004, 07:18 PM
Thanks, I have the adaware it workd good. The first time I used it I could not believe all the stuff it found.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> When I click on the link to see your post I got directed to a porn site.????? <hr /></blockquote>
Heck with the 13 railer...what's that porn site address? LOL
05-12-2004, 03:13 PM
Don't think so. I just copied the link from the "tateuts" post that is second from the bottom here in threaded mode. It works fine for me.
ps - was it good porn?
05-12-2004, 03:46 PM
I just tried it again and here is where it took me.
I just edited my post real quick. I don't want to be
posting links to porn sites on here. Sorry
It only comes when I click on that one post you made. I don't know why. I ran a spy ware thing on my computer but it still happened when I tried it just now again. It has to have something to do with the link in your post. I also have an old computer with nothing that really blocks pop ups. It has nothing to do with you I am sure, some kind of spyware thing on my computer.
05-12-2004, 09:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nightstalker:</font><hr> Good, let us know what you come up with Chris. Thanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Ok, this is what I did. I took 4 red circle cb's. One I left normal but clean. One I used Pledge on. One I used WD-40 and another with Silicone. This was done ona 9ft with new Simonis 860 stretched tight. Results as follows:
Normal: barely 8 rails.
Pledge: barely 9 rails.
WD-40 : barely 9 rails an 1"
Silicone: barely 9 rails an 1"
After shooting this I knew it was the difference in cloth. So, I proceeded to IA and look up Jonny Kucharo' hall. He has a 5x10 with 760 cloth.
After several trys I quickly found out that it's again the cloth. Everytime I applied a super break stroke the ball took two hops at 90 mph and took off after the second rail. Clearing the 3rd rail and thank God the wall was there instead of a human. LOL This also happened on the 9ft too. BTW, I got 9 rails easy. Also, nowhere near 10.
After talking about the silicone sprayed table that Jon and Jess played on I found out it was Armorall sprayed on the cloth. This still wasn't the case though. That stuff seals the pores to the cloth and is like a sheet of glass. After time though, it was nasty. Greasey feeling on your hand.
I got to thinking that I should checkout the tape again. Sure enough, it looks as if the cue could be turned sideways and still wouldn't reach rail to rail. So, I'm thinking the tape was done on a 5x10 table. It wouldn't matter anyway with the right equipment.
After seeing the tape went over to FL website and read that he had done this on a 9, Billiard and Snooker table. Also, one handed.
That gave me what I needed to hear. I came to the conclusion he used a Simonis Ultra Blue 300 cloth or a Granito if it comes in that color. Most likely Artimus speed rails or billiard rails, and Pledge the ball. Could have been some or all of my proposals. Maybe, it's something else? I just believe it is mainly billiard cloth. The ball wasn't shot that hard.
Now why would anyone ever cover a 9ft in 300 Simonis or Granito cloth? Why would anyone invest money into just one shot? I thought about that for a picosecond. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Mosconi and a bunch of others had been in the Ripley' Believe it or Not, stats and records. It sure would be nice to add to ones resume. Like magicians, they pay for their tricks and the harder to duplicate the more likely it'll be noted worthy in the public eye.
Either way it's entertaining and pulls ordinary people into the pool halls. Thinking they can shoot. LOL It's all good for us. After all, the rules for trickshots are as follows, they're the ones you make up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Kind of like Kato' when we play. hahahaha
C.C.~~definitely done on billiard cloth.
05-13-2004, 07:30 AM
Thanks Chris! Some interesting findings. I think the cloth factor, like you said, is likely the clincher.
Thanks for posting the results. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
If I remember correctly Steve Lipsky had an idea about how to make the shot and FL agreed that is how he did it. Steve said that when you hit the cb, it does not really roll on the table for the first couple rails but rather it is jumping just a bit and only hitting the cushion. FL agreed and said this was the secret and the reason why he does not do the shot in public any more. FL also mentioned once that he did the shot at Ga Tech when he was a pool instructor there, and those tables were in horrible condition. I would venture to guess they did not have any special cloth on them.
eg8r <~~~has never tried the 11 rail shot
If you watch the video, it looks like he is playing with a touch of LE but on the follow thru, his cue goes violently to the right!?
He is working the ball somehow but I still think you need a fast cloth.
05-13-2004, 10:20 AM
If you read my post about the part where the cue when hit at break speed would do two bounces and fired off the table about 90. That's a good way to think about it. The speed has to be just under break speed but still, the cloth must be able to hit 8 rails after that and the friction alone will kill the ball. It's keeping the ball on the table also. I watched this video and although his follow thru was about 1/2 table it still has to be billiard cloth. Please try this shot.
I can see the ball jumping but that only counts for 3 rails.
05-13-2004, 10:25 AM
Good point. If you can get over the initial first 3 rails with LE then, you might be able to get there. I still think the cloth would have much to do with it. I'll try it again tonight. BTW, I did try the LE too. I just didn't fire it when I did. That would mean that the english would have to take after the 3rd rail.
Sure I will give it a try. I don't doubt that the faster cloth will help, I was just mentioning that because he had stated he did it once on a crappy playing table. I surely hope I don't hit anyone when mine bounces off the table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
05-14-2004, 08:43 AM
When you hit the 8th and 9th rails, what rails are they? I can hit 9 rails on most any table with any regular cue ball but the 8th rail is the long rail and after that the cue balls dies on the 9th, that is as far as it can go. I was able to with the silicone spray, get the 8th on the short rail and after it hit the 9th it rolled a little just short of the middle of the table. I have never been able to do that before, but it is still "Way" short of hitting 10 or 11, but at least it is on it's way, just short.
The first 3 rails are A,B and then C.[ not enough arrows].
05-14-2004, 09:18 AM
Wait, this will help more and less confusing.
This is amazing, this guys got me posting his website. HAHAHAHA
C.C.~~feel like a fish with a hook in my mouth. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>
This is amazing, this guys got me posting his website. HAHAHAHA
rotl, boy oh boy I see CCBdom really needs to get FL back here. not for nothing but this place is boring without him
05-14-2004, 11:23 AM
If you are getting rail 5 that far up from the side pocket, that's it. It just neede to be longer. When I say I can do 9 any time, that is because rail 8 is the long rail and 9 is the short rail. The last two rails happen right in the corner. That shot is easy to do .
05-14-2004, 07:25 PM
Popcorn, If you watch FL's tape closley you will notice that the cue ball strikes the first rail (long rail) in virtually the same spot on the return to that rail. I don't know how that happens. The 11 rail shot on a Billiard table (5x10) is not that difficult because of the absence of pockets. On a 5x10 Billiard table if we number the rails 1,2,3,4. cue ball will enter rails 1 and 2 approximatly where FL's hits them.The entry point on rail 3 and the exit point on rail 4 are deep. (where the pocket is on a pool table) Thats why it wont go long enough and far enough, I believe the cue ball expends to much energy in the entry and exit angles. I don't believe it's the cloth. Look at the 4th rail, the cue ball seems to reverse. How else could it lengthen out that long. I could be wrong, but I think some of the speed is retained because of the entry and exit angle on that rail. Sort of like a rock slipping accross water. I think the rails have been wiped down with silicon. Just a thought.
05-14-2004, 07:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I made a comment in a previous thread that has since been deleted regarding the 11 rail shot. <hr /></blockquote>
Never did the 11 rail one but...when FL was at my house, he got me to do the 9 rails. He did tell me which diamonds to aim at and I had to hit it with slight follow 2 tips running english. That is all I know. In that experiment, the cb did not have anything funky in it like silicone.
He did tell ww how he did the 11 rail one, but I guess you would have to write fl at firstname.lastname@example.org if ya wanna know how.
05-14-2004, 08:30 PM
The 9 rails is easy, anyone can do it no tricks.
05-14-2004, 08:34 PM
A Sang Lee trick.
05-15-2004, 12:16 AM
Hi John G.,
Are you saying the cb will stay down with a silicone wipe? It's rail two I'm talking about.
05-15-2004, 04:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> The 9 rails is easy, anyone can do it no tricks. <hr /></blockquote>
The 9 rail ended up at a certain place on the last rail to knock a ball in. Considering I had only played for about 6 months at the time, it was hard for me. At that time, I was still in the 'dont drop the elbow school' and had to do a very long follow through to get the 9 rails. I will talk to Larry to see if he will tell how he does the 11 rail one. I know that there are a couple of things he did to make it work.
This might provide some insight as to how Larry does it:
"The guys on the set setting up my 2 tables for the premier of the Ripley's Believe it or not show did not follow my instructions on how to heat the 2 show tables, they bought the wrong stuff at the hardware store, then spliced some cables together, one of the tables caught fire"
Ken in CT
05-15-2004, 02:02 PM
No, I believe that's just a product of some rails. Height, angle and composituon. I've made the shot on a billiard
table, but, to be candid I didn't think it could be done on a pool table. There is a post by "Ken" at the bottom of this thread that implys heat was used. I think that's the answer. Many Billiard tables are heated and that lends to them playing longer. Maybe FL just figured out something The rest of us were slow to see. Like you, If I hit a ball at 27 or 28 mph break speed, on my table, it flys off. I don't get out much to try this now on other tables but I have played on tables where the cue wont fly off. Although it seems to be counter productive in that when you smash the rail You get a deadblow effect and you lose a good amount of the balls energy. Hats off to Larry on this one, he's got me. Take care
05-15-2004, 02:07 PM
Ken, well a big "DUH" from me. I confess I never considered heat but that does clear some things up. Makes sence. That could account for the cue balls reaction. Smart move. Thanks for the input. Take care /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
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