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View Full Version : Missing On Purpose, Gambling Ploy



Sid_Vicious
05-10-2004, 07:54 PM
I've noticed, and wondered about many of my past experiences, whether some of the hints Grady Matthews gave in his gambling video about missing correctly, MIGHT be a reality where I play with certain players. Let's get real honest...have you missed purposely knowing you'll leave bad shape, to instill hope in your fish so they'll keep bitin' the hook???sid

Frank_Glenn
05-10-2004, 08:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I've noticed, and wondered about many of my past experiences, whether some of the hints Grady Matthews gave in his gambling video about missing correctly, MIGHT be a reality where I play with certain players. Let's get real honest...have you missed purposely knowing you'll leave bad shape, to instill hope in your fish so they'll keep bitin' the hook???sid <hr /></blockquote>

I never miss on purpose unless I am playing a safe, but I often play two way shots. If I make it, I get shape on the next ball, but if I miss it leaves the other guy hooked somehow. Usually these are difficult shots, so it looks like I went for it and got lucky, in actuality, no luck was involved. YMMV

Vagabond
05-10-2004, 08:04 PM
Howdy Sid,
Nothing wrong with that.That is our culture.Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Nightstalker
05-10-2004, 08:23 PM
Yep, and then react upset to really complete the effect. It is like this: you say, "No way did I just do that!"
You are thinking to yourself, "Haha, try shooting with that leave sucka!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Popcorn
05-10-2004, 08:44 PM
Of course, although it looks bad to just miss, it is easier to get out of position and miss. You don't always want to leave him safe, if he is an average player a miss early in the rack, (9-ball) lets him pocket some balls and he may even run out, but usually he will just miss leaving you a simple two or three ball run out. You should always look like yourself when playing, no funny faces, funny stroke or bridge or acting stupid. Just let him have some time at the table and that is all you have to do. It also allows you to pick up speed if you want. You can't do that if you have been acting like an idiot all night and now all of a sudden want to start running out. Is it a nice thing to do? I don't know, I could rationalize a lot of different ways, but it is taking advantage of someone who thinks they are in a fair game. They are not necessarily trying to do anything to you, other then play a little for a few bucks and they are in a trap.

I was once in a auto parts place and I had on a tee shirt with the name of a pool room on it. A kid working there asked me if I play pool. I asked him "why he asked"? He said "because of the shirt". Then one of the other guys working there said, "Watch out for him, (referring to the kid) he is a hustler". I asked him where he played and he told me. So I told him I would play some with him if he wanted and we made a date for that Friday night. Comes Friday and I go there and sure enough he's there. We start playing for whatever it was, not much, but I win his whole paycheck. He couldn't play at all, which didn't surprise me. The thing is, he knew right away he couldn't win but kept playing with all his friends watching. He had no idea how to get out of this and I took advantage of it. This story has a good ending though. My wife left and was very mad at me for playing with this kid. A few days later I went to where he worked, I called him to the side and gave him back his money, He didn't want to take it but I insisted. I never gave anyone else their money back and no one ever gave me back mine, but in this case it was the right thing to do.

Nightstalker
05-10-2004, 08:58 PM
No, of course don't try to pull a jekyl and hyde on anyone. You have to make it look good and not like you are a hustler. You never want them to even have an inkling of what is going on, that is the trick. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

slinkyredfoot
05-10-2004, 09:06 PM
I believe someone else said it. You never actually miss a pot that you would normally make on purpose when gambling. NEVER. Its easier to just let your stroke out and over hit everything just a little bit. Before you know it, you've got an impossible pot to make. Your opponent won't be the wiser as the set progresses and your position gets progressivly better until your consistently getting out when you're supposed to.
Look at it like this. Everyone has to pay their dues sometime, right? And what the hustler has done for the young protege is teach him/her something. And he got to play a lot of pool. All for a small fee. It's only fair as its happened to all of us at some point. Unless of course you're Efren. I've heard that that man was hustling at quite a young age:-)

#### leonard
05-11-2004, 07:50 AM
Popcorn you moved up to the top of my list with that move.

I had a man and boy come in my room, the man was looking for Butch Leonard, he wanted to play me 6 ball on a sidetable. He lost 60 dollars in 15 minutes saying you have the time and left. Had he stayed 5 minutes, I would have given him his money back. It was as if he just wanted his son to see him play someone good. I never ever saw him again.####

Sid_Vicious
05-11-2004, 07:50 AM
I was only half watching that video segment of Grady's, but I remember a shot lying down near a corner, 99% makable by a true top notch player, and the advice was to miss, leaving the CB on a slow one pocket path coming up short in the middle of the short rail, missed in that fashion randomnly by C players, even B players under pressure. Of course the CB ended up on the other end, leaving a bank shot, which many half-way players seem to jump on, thinking "This guy ain't that good" and miss the bank a lot. I've had everyday players miss shots similiar to that in almost the same manner, and I'd scratch my head and wonder "How dod HE ever miss THAT shot!"

You're an admirable man Popcorn for the winnings return. I'm sure noone here expects players to do that often, still just once shows character, at least to me it does.

Sincerely,
Sid

nAz
05-11-2004, 08:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I called him to the side and gave him back his money, He didn't want to take it but I insisted. I never gave anyone else their money back and no one ever gave me back mine, but in this case it was the right thing to do. <hr /></blockquote>

Cool!
you know that kid should hook you up with a 30% discounts for now on, autoparts are not cheap you know. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

poolplayer1988
05-11-2004, 09:05 AM
Let me ask you guys this...Have you ever been playing someone who is pretty even with you and then just got in the zone and started dominating them? Normally that's what happens to me and in those instances I have to miss occasionally just so my opponent won't quit on me. I don't like laying down like that, but what else do you do? A spot would be TOO much to give, IMO. Any thoughts?

Popcorn
05-11-2004, 09:20 AM
Quote myself
"Then one of the other guys working there said, "Watch out for him, (referring to the kid) he is a hustler". I asked him where he played and he told me. So I told him I would play some with him if he wanted and we made a date for that Friday".

When I say "I told him I would play him some", That just paraphrases what was actually a soft con, I said more then that I am sure. That's the problem with this stuff, the lying and deceit of a person that means you no harm at all. Not exactly the same as matching up with a player. If two players match up and one may be a little better then the other, even if he hides it a little, to get the bet up or something, it's more like passing in a poker game pretending your cards are not that good to get the pot up, its part of the game. Stealing from kids, playing drunks, lying and coning and all that other stuff, it just does not leave you with much in the way of memories you look back on with any pride.

cycopath
05-11-2004, 09:21 AM
Classy move, Popcorn.
You are a real gentleman of the game.

Popcorn
05-11-2004, 09:31 AM
Two players can be somewhat even and one just get hot and the game looks one sided from the side lines. I would say enjoy it, it may be the other around the next time. If you really are the better player there is nothing wrong with giving up a spot. It makes for a better game and you have another player you can play with when you see him, since you guys have a game to play. You may lose giving a spot because it is a little much, but it should not have anything with just the fact you are spotting someone. I hear that all the time, "I never spot anyone", why? Once you are willing to give weight you have a much bigger pool of players you can play with, it benefits you. You come to the pool room to play, not sit around. It does not have to be the perfect game to get up and play

crawdaddio
05-11-2004, 09:35 AM
Never have, never will. I play pool for the sheer thrill of attemting to achieve a perfect game, and I love to watch the balls roll /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif. When I gamble, which is not often, I generally match up with better players so I can improve my game under pressure. When I play a weaker player (for cash) I never intentionally miss, or lay down in any manner~~I think it is un-ethical, and I never let up. I don't really care if it gets around how good or bad I am, and it has gotten around (pretty small city). I have people I don't even know wanting to match up 'cause they heard about me. Go figure.......but I never hide my ability, even for a moment. Kudos Popcorn, well done.
Peace
David

Qtec
05-11-2004, 10:10 AM
Come on Cycopath,lets be real about what happened.
Quote, "My wife left and was very mad at me for playing with this kid. ".
Women know how to make you feel guilty.LOL.
If you are really hustling, there is no room for a guilty concience when it comes to suckers. Popcorn knew he had the guy and made full use of that fact.Cleaned him out!!
In Popcorns defense, under those circumstances I would probably done the same.
Take the money that is. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec

cheesemouse
05-11-2004, 10:54 AM
Sid,

Interesting ???...I like what Popcorn has stated so far and I will let his statements be my conscience and my guide. I would add that when I want to play I don't like to waste my time. I will make most any game with a stranger just to get it going; adjustments can be made later if gambling is involved. In those rare situations where you find yourself in a game and the other guy is out of his depth and has no chance in hell, plus doesn't have the common sense or ability to save face by exiting the game I may adjust my game and let him escape...I don't need to rob pool players and take no pleasure in doing it...I'm no angel and I like to have the advantage in the game but I am not trying to make a living playing pool, I prefer a good competitive game. Life is too short to be disquising your speed instead of playing your speed.....

Popcorn
05-11-2004, 11:33 AM
I in no way told the story to make myself look benevolent. In fact if you read my other post on the subject I say I look back on some of what I did in those days really with some shame. I would just like to tell someone who thinks that kind of hustling helpless victims is cool, that is isn't. In the movie COM it gives the impression that anything goes as to the morals and ethics of the game. I.E.. Tom Cruse dumping to Eddie in the tournament and trying to give him some of the money. Or the montage of them running around conning people out of their money and so on. Maybe back in the days of the depression when what you did may stand between putting food on the table and your family starving. But for most people today I doubt that is the case. Doing that kind of stuff just to show how cleaver you are is kind of low class. This case with the kid just happened, I was not out looking for suckers, he may have been a young Mike Sigal for all I knew. My point was, if there was one, was that gamesmanship has it's place and what may be OK in one case is not in another. I beat Jimmy Reid out of a little money once getting him in a one pocket trap, he is a world beater, but a trap is a trap and he was in one. I don't feel bad about that one.

tateuts
05-11-2004, 01:39 PM
I used to do it a long time ago when I needed the money. It was not so much missing on purpose as it was not trying very hard.

In reality, very few players "miss on purpose". The hustlers making a living off of pool pretty much have to lay down if they want to make any money. They have to milk people. But this is a rare breed - most don't survive.

As far as recreational players and weekend warriors go, they miss and say it was on purpose. Dogging balls and missing on purpose look just alike.

But everyone is paranoid about "getting hustled". One time Mika came to Los Angeles and my friend was put in charge of finding him a low stakes game - like $50 a set 9 ball. I guess Mika isn't or wasn't a big gambler. Anyway, my buddy called around and finally found him a game with a local "A" player who just wanted the experience of playing a world-beater cheap, and who figured he's lose $200 and gain the invaluable experience.

When my freind told Mika about the match, Mika asked suspiciously "now, this isn't a set-up, is it?".

Chris

SPetty
05-11-2004, 03:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr>I play pool for the sheer thrill of attemting to achieve a perfect game, and I love to watch the balls roll.
...
I don't really care if it gets around how good or bad I am, and it has gotten around. I have people I don't even know wanting to match up 'cause they heard about me.<hr /></blockquote>Howdy crawdaddio,

I like your style. That's how I feel, except I don't qualify for that "people come around to play me" part. They haven't heard of me and couldn't care less. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

buddha162
05-11-2004, 03:34 PM
Hi Chris,

Now, for $50 a set, do you think that local "A" got Mika's best game?

I've heard that Mika isn't a gambler, so maybe he did.

-Roger

tateuts
05-11-2004, 03:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> Hi Chris,

Now, for $50 a set, do you think that local "A" got Mika's best game?

I've heard that Mika isn't a gambler, so maybe he did.

-Roger <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Roger,

You know what's strange is, I found these tournament players to only have one gear - HIGH. They get in such a habit of playing with 100% effort and concentration, they almost can't play any other way. Someone like him, a famous player, would be hard to play because 99% of us would be beat before we even got to the table.

Chris

Rod
05-11-2004, 04:13 PM
Well I'll be honest, yes I have. I've also missed not caring if I sold out. Hell my whole game is a hustle since I've missed plenty of balls. LOL As I think about years ago there were some moves that were a little shady and not something I do today. Like Popcorn, I have even given money back, rare but I have. Gamblers want an edge and if they say they don't then I think they have not gambled seriously or made there living that way.

Remember people want your money if they want to gamble. Many times they asked me. To that I say you better do your homework or get out while you still have some cash. I've been hustled, rare but it has happened. I have made bad games just to get a game to although many times, turns out it wasn't really bad.

You know when I could make more that 4 friggin balls. I would just walk into a room and ask the house guy. Tell him I played good and asked if there was any players. Sometimes they called or maybe someone was there. Usually just passing through small cities looking for a quick score but not always. You'd be supprised how often that got games. I think people liked to gamble a lot more then. They didn't have to know your life history or rating to play some 10 or 20 a game Nine ball.

I won't do that now, first of all I'm not interested and I just don't have that kind of game. Not to mention there are a lot of strong players now. To each their own, I've had most of my fun already.

Rod

crawdaddio
05-11-2004, 04:19 PM
Howdy crawdaddio,

I like your style. That's how I feel, except I don't qualify for that "people come around to play me" part. They haven't heard of me and couldn't care less. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Believe me, it's not 'cause I'm good, it's cause I'm OK and I have a nice cue (or two,or three) and I practice ALOT. Word just seems to get around in a semi-small town with a small pool playing community. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Rod
05-11-2004, 04:36 PM
SPetty,
How can you say that? You have people comming over ever once in a while from what I read.


Rod

tateuts
05-11-2004, 05:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> Hi Chris,

Now, for $50 a set, do you think that local "A" got Mika's best game?

I've heard that Mika isn't a gambler, so maybe he did.

-Roger <hr /></blockquote>

Roger,

I got another story for you. Last year I was on vacation and Efren came to town. My friend got set up to play him some cheap $50 practice sets. I heard about this when I came back and was really sorry I missed my chance to play him or even just meet him and watch the sets.

I asked my friend how he played against Efren. "Terrible" he said "I dogged everything". I said, "so what was the score?". He said 7 -4 in both sets. I said "I thought you played terrible?" He replied "So did Efren!".

Chris

buddha162
05-12-2004, 03:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> I asked my friend how he played against Efren. "Terrible" he said "I dogged everything". I said, "so what was the score?". He said 7 -4 in both sets. I said "I thought you played terrible?" He replied "So did Efren!".

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

Lol, classic.

That makes a lot of sense re tournament players constantly playing their hardest. I suppose a player like Mika who makes a comfortable living w/o having to gamble probably wants to be in top form 100% of the time.

Thanks for the stories!

-Roger

Popcorn
05-12-2004, 09:59 AM
quote
"That makes a lot of sense re tournament players constantly playing their hardest. I suppose a player like Mika who makes a comfortable living w/o having to gamble probably wants to be in top form 100% of the time".

That should always be the case if you can do it. On the road is one thing but around where you live where everybody knows you, you should always pride yourself in playing your best all the time. I guess I have to touch on the giving up weight issue again. The players that don't give weight don't get to play as much as though that do. When your in your home room you are there to play pool, the sport of pool, not just to win money. Sitting on the side waiting for the perfect game to come along, or trying to out maneuver the other guy in the game making process just gets old, get up and play. Pool players, play pool. All that stuff you hear about the game is won in the negotiation is bunk. It is true to the degree that you may talk a guy into what is a one sided game, but how does that make you a winner? Sort of like fishing in a stocked pond, you are fooling yourself. Losing, in a tough but even game, is better then winning in a cake walk, because you conned a guy in to a trap. If you are trying to make money then I guess you have to be cautious, but if you want to be a player, you need to though caution to the wind sometimes. Now you have to hear another of my stories.

I come in the pool room one night and there is a guy there playing one pocket with the desk man for a few dollars. He looks right at me when I come in which tells me something, it is probably not an accident he is here. We get talking and he wants to play some one pocket. we end up making a game 10 to 6 for $20. a game.(good money at that time) Turns out he is a little better player then he let on and I get stuck like $100. pretty quick After awhile he asks if I want to raise the bet. I don't really want to, I have already resolved this is probably going to be a losing night, but I would keep playing and see what happens. This guys beginning to get on my nerves after a while though with his cockiness. He asks again if I want to play for more, so I tell him, "Take away a couple of those balls and you can bet what you want". I am like still 7 or 8 games stuck now. He is at the table and I'm sitting there and My wife says to me, Why don't you beat this guy, are you enjoying this or something"? I don't know what came over me but I thought to myself, no I am not enjoying this, not at all. I am losing money and on top of it that, taking abuse from the guy.

I managed to win back a few games so I thought, what the heck, offered to raise the bet to $50. and he now declines with one of those, "You will have to win it back the way you lost it". To make a long story short, he quit me even.
So what is the point of this story? To me it's this, I have beat a zillion guys I don't even remember and won money that has long been spent, but nights like that stay with you. There is satisfaction in winning when it is not easy, even if you don't win, playing hard and seeing what you can do is the reason you play, in fact it is the only reason to play. That night I won, (got even anyway), but I have lots of losing nights that are still great nights in my memory playing pool. It beats sitting on the side lines all the time. You know there used to be a guy that came in a pool room I went one time, that would buy those crossword puzzle books. He would fill in the squares half the time by looking up the answers in the back of the book. He would complete the puzzle with all this pride, yet he looked up half the answers. He never fooled anyone because we would see him doing it, I guess he fooled himself, what ever makes you happy.

tateuts
05-12-2004, 01:54 PM
Popcorn,

Good story - your wife must be a saint. No way I could gamble in front of mine - I would be too nervous.

Chris

Popcorn
05-12-2004, 07:29 PM
My wife knows a lot about pool and I feel better when she is around. I want her sitting right there when I am playing. We are together almost day and night and after 30 years it's still the same. She has always been one of the guys and she can, (could) play. I remember for a while there was a bunch of scotch double tournaments going on by us and one Sunday morning someone is knocking at our bedroom the window. It's a pool player wanting to know if she wanted to go play in a tournament. They ended up playing in a number of tournaments and won quite a bit of money. My wife has always been treated good by pool players. They never curse around her or anything. I liked the idea she could be a lady pool player without being trashy like a lot of them are. She quit playing in the women's tournaments because of the way the women were. She could play too, beating players like Lori Jon, Bonnie Hoffman, Gerrie Titcome and more.

The last tournament she played in, the one girl she was playing throw my wife's stuff on the floor while she was at the table. She spit and cursed and the tournament director did nothing. (this was not a small tournament). The girl she road up there with got knocked out on day one, was really pissed and decided to leave early, leaving my wife stranded there. I had to drive 300 up there miles to pick up my wife. The final she lost in was sickening. The girl who beat her was a foul mouthed piece of dirt. (sort of a tornado if you know what I mean). When we got home she said that was enough for her. My opinion of many of the women players is not very good. Women should be able play pool without being trashy. She doesn't need to be associated with people like that. She has fun playing at home and at the pool room with friends, she doesn't need that stuff. I would be curious if any of the women players on here have had similar experiences playing on any of the tours? She is out of town for the next few days, that may be why I seem to be writing so much on here today. No one to yell at me to get some work done.

cycopath
05-12-2004, 09:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> She is out of town for the next few days, that may be why I seem to be writing so much on here today. No one to yell at me to get some work done. <hr /></blockquote>

GET SOME WORK DONE!

Just kidding Popcorn. I love the stories you post. Keep it up.