PDA

View Full Version : In need of some help with English



zacafamn
05-13-2004, 12:34 AM
Got a quick question for some of the more experienced players out there but first some background. Started playing pool when I was a teen and stopped for about 3 years. Now at 21 I am picking it back up and have found I am a little better then I was before. I have a cheapy sterling cause I have a tendency if I don't do as well as I want to then I will give up on something, I think thats what happened when I was a teen. Anyway, I played in my first 9 ball tournament the other night and was beat pretty bad (it wasn't an amateur tourny. The German Bundes league (more professional then your average joe) played. Military man station in Germany USAF) I got a few wins on guys I thought were a lot better then me. Ok now to the question. I think I am at a stand still with my game. I would say I am an beginner to intermediate player. I can more or less run a rack of nine. I practice I would say about 4 hours a week. Thanks not just hitting the balls around. That’s working on my stroke and hitting shots a lot, especially longer ones, to train myself to hit them consistently. I am intimidated by English because of the few times I tried it for position I have missed horribly. Does anyone have any advice for someone who wants to learn and practice English effectively?
Thanks for the help in advance.
Zac

pooltchr
05-13-2004, 06:35 AM
http://www.duke.edu/~rulmer/poolterms.htm

Understanding what happens when you strike the cue ball other than with a center ball hit is the first step.
Check out the link above to see all the different things that happen when you use english. Once you understand this, then you can start to make the necessary adjustments.

Chris Cass
05-13-2004, 06:50 AM
Hi and welcome to the board. My advice to you would be to set up the same shot and learn one english at a time. The set up is a straight in shot from one side pocket to the other and the distance from the cb to the ob should be about 10" apart. See, how the effect of the hits are from one side to the other in 1/2 cue tip increments from center ball. BTW, english is side spin only.

Regards,

C.C.

Mitch
05-13-2004, 08:45 AM
Well I've been playing since a child old enough to reach the table and I guarantee you I'm alot older than you but all joking aside the only real way I improved was to finally get that game room table in my own home where i can practice,practice,practice at NO cost ... You need to shoot these shots hundreds and hundreds of time to even start to feel somewhat comfortable with them....
Mitch

Troy
05-13-2004, 09:15 AM
I suggest you practice center ball ONLY until your game picks up. By this I mean draw & follow but NOT side spin. The use of english (side spin) can wait 'cuz there are numerous variables depending on your stroke, cue, etc. Too many people attempt english too early in their learning process.

Troy...~~~ JMHO... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote zacafamn:</font><hr>.....Ok now to the question. I think I am at a stand still with my game. I would say I am an beginner to intermediate player. I can more or less run a rack of nine. I practice I would say about 4 hours a week. Thanks not just hitting the balls around. That?s working on my stroke and hitting shots a lot, especially longer ones, to train myself to hit them consistently. I am intimidated by English because of the few times I tried it for position I have missed horribly. Does anyone have any advice for someone who wants to learn and practice English effectively?
Thanks for the help in advance.
Zac
<hr /></blockquote>

Scott Lee
05-13-2004, 11:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> I suggest you practice center ball ONLY until your game picks up. By this I mean draw &amp; follow but NOT side spin. The use of english (side spin) can wait 'cuz there are numerous variables depending on your stroke, cue, etc. Too many people attempt english too early in their learning process.

Troy...~~~ JMHO... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

This is solid advice! I find consistently, that even better players, who have a "feeling" for using sidespin, don't REALLY know what the CB will do, just stroking along the verical axis. Top and bottom are what make the CB curve...NOT sidespin (unless you elevate the butt of the cue). Also, I find that even advanced players often add topspin or draw to their english-applied shots, without knowing or realizing what centerball with sidespin does to the CB, after hitting a rail. In other words, they add top or bottom, along with sidespin, without realizing that they don't really need it, to get where they want to be with the CB.

Scott Lee

Chris Cass
05-13-2004, 11:36 AM
Hi Scott,

I find many people don't know what the tangent line is all about and how to not have to use any english to get where their going. The tangent line is the most valuable knowledge you can have in the beginning and many don't understand how to even use it to their advantage.

Regards,

C.C.~~when you coming????

Frank_Glenn
05-13-2004, 03:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Scott,

I find many people don't know what the tangent line is all about and how to not have to use any english to get where their going. The tangent line is the most valuable knowledge you can have in the beginning and many don't understand how to even use it to their advantage.

Regards,

C.C.~~when you coming???? <hr /></blockquote>

Tim White (Austrailian Oyster) had a copper pipe set-up used to show the TL in his videos. It's basically a double 90° triangle. I made one from PVC (cheap!). I use it all the time to show players what the TL is and how to manipulate it with only top &amp; draw. Here's a wei diagram of the setup, the lines are the PVC and where it touches the rail I have an elbow with 2" of PVC going down to the table to "lift" the rig above the ball. Move the cueball around to show that when it is sliding (B), it follows the line. If it is rolling, it does not. Rolling forward (follow) comes on the inside (A) toward the pocket, and rolling backwards (draw) goes away (C). I agree that this is probably THE most important thing to know to control whitey.

START(
%Ao5H2%BL3P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EN0P9%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pd7H7%Qs7J9%Rs1N0%S s4R3%TP9[9
%Ur9L9%Vn7H6%Wt4B3%Xn8H6%]u4O0%^g5A1%_s1J9%`q7J4%an5H8%bs1R1
%cq1M2%dn7I0
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html

SPetty
05-13-2004, 05:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr> I made one from PVC (cheap!). I use it all the time to show players what the TL is and how to manipulate it with only top &amp; draw. Here's a wei diagram of the setup, the lines are the PVC and where it touches the rail I have an elbow with 2" of PVC going down to the table to "lift" the rig above the ball. <hr /></blockquote>Hi Frank_Glenn,

Do you have a digital photograph of this rig you could share?

Frank_Glenn
05-13-2004, 06:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr> I made one from PVC (cheap!). I use it all the time to show players what the TL is and how to manipulate it with only top &amp; draw. Here's a wei diagram of the setup, the lines are the PVC and where it touches the rail I have an elbow with 2" of PVC going down to the table to "lift" the rig above the ball. <hr /></blockquote>Hi Frank_Glenn,

Do you have a digital photograph of this rig you could share? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I just made 5 pictures. I do not have a website to host them on. They are in gif format and the total for all 5 is 113K. I can send them to someone who can post them.

Frank_Glenn
05-13-2004, 06:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr> I made one from PVC (cheap!). I use it all the time to show players what the TL is and how to manipulate it with only top &amp; draw. Here's a wei diagram of the setup, the lines are the PVC and where it touches the rail I have an elbow with 2" of PVC going down to the table to "lift" the rig above the ball. <hr /></blockquote>Hi Frank_Glenn,

Do you have a digital photograph of this rig you could share? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I just made 5 pictures. I do not have a website to host them on. They are in gif format and the total for all 5 is 113K. I can send them to someone who can post them. <hr /></blockquote>

OK, I made a web site. http://home.comcast.net/~spyder-murphy/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Click on photos. I will put up more photos in the next few days of my cues and my table.

ras314
05-13-2004, 07:44 PM
Interesting idea. I've tried lining up cues to get the idea across but then they have to be moved when you hit the ball. Watching the cb run along under the pipe ought to really stick in the mind.

Maybe the same approach would work with the half-ball hit 30 deg concept?

Pelican
05-13-2004, 07:52 PM
Cool site Frank. Wanted to sign guest book but not working yet. Will check back on occasion to see any upgrades. Great job, Pel /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris Cass
05-13-2004, 11:05 PM
Hi Frank,

You odviously know what I'm talking about. Can't believe how many proven players don't know how easy it is to understand. Simple 90 degree angle. I get this, how did you do that? I reply, I just manipulated the TL. They say what? hahaha

Good post Frank and I'll be looking forward to the pics.

START(
%Am5H6%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EG0H6%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JH1G8
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PM8G9%Ur1I4%Vl9I4%W l7D5%Xl8I2
%YC8D1%ZG4H1%_n8H6%`l8F7%an7H7
)END
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
05-14-2004, 05:44 AM
Frank,
Great idea! It's so hard sometimes to get the concept across to students. Your visual aid is a great idea. You might even consider a piece of plexiglass on top of it so you could possibly use a marker to track the path when top or bottom spin is used. Show your students how much you can change the cb direction just by controlling speed and spin of the cb.
Steve -- always looking for new ways to teach the concepts!

Scott Lee
05-14-2004, 02:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>

Maybe the same approach would work with the half-ball hit 30 deg concept? <hr /></blockquote>

Stan...a half-ball hit is a 45 degree angle, not 30!

Scott

ras314
05-14-2004, 02:35 PM
Scott, good to see you posting a bit more.

The 30 deg half ball hit thing I am refering to is the 30 deg angle the cb takes from its initial path. As I understand it the cb should have natural roll at the time of contact. A concept I vaguely remember from a long time back and recently saw again in Bryne's books and BD mag.

Scott Lee
05-14-2004, 02:48 PM
Stan...More important, imo, is understanding tangent line, which involves the CB sliding into the contact point on the OB. When you perfectly understand the 90 degree concept, with a sliding or skidding CB, then natural roll (aka topspin on the CB) can be better understood, on how to use it to manipulate the CB on what might otherwise be a natural scratch (for example). Many students fail to clearly understand that to really accurately visualize how the CB responds off the contact point on the OB, they need to first understand what natural roll and draw do to the tangent line concept. I find many students who say "I hit the CB in the CENTER, but it didn't do what I thought it would!" Usually that means that the CB did not skid all the way into the OB, and therefore DID have forward roll...which reacts exactly like hitting with topspin, to begin with! jmo

Scott

ras314
05-14-2004, 04:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Stan...More important, imo, is understanding tangent line, which involves the CB sliding into the contact point on the OB.<hr /></blockquote>

Certinally agree with that. Somehow it just seems more usefull.

I have to think somewhat about where the 30 deg line is which is why I think an aid similar to the tangent line pipe jig would help. I have occasionally found the "30 deg rule" usefull when the only way to make a ball was a carom off the ob.

Bob_Jewett
05-14-2004, 06:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>
Maybe the same approach would work with the half-ball hit 30 deg concept? <hr /></blockquote>
A half-ball hit gives a 30-degree cut and roughly a 34-degree exit angle for the cue ball.

I think a different kind of demo device is better to see the half-ball follow angle, and I'll try to illustrate it in future column.

Nit Picking: the cut angle will be slighlty less than 30 degrees due to collision-induced throw, and the follow angle will be slightly larger than the ideal 33.67 degrees due to loss of follow during the collision. Ivory balls will have a smaller follow angle due to inelasticity.

ras314
05-14-2004, 11:42 PM
I noticed the 34 deg exit angle in Bryne's book, probably came from you. Looking forward to your column.

Doubt I can tell 34 from 30 deg. Might do better by thinking of a 60 deg angle between cb and ob path.

Rich R.
05-15-2004, 06:29 AM
Very nice web site Frank.
You may want to check the size of the last picture in your slide show. It seems a little large to me and you may want to resize it.

I'm definitely looking foward to checking back to see more.

JClark
05-22-2004, 04:53 PM
Buy the game target pool til you get home it's a great start.

Frank_Glenn
05-22-2004, 08:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> Very nice web site Frank.
You may want to check the size of the last picture in your slide show. It seems a little large to me and you may want to resize it.

I'm definitely looking foward to checking back to see more. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks, I redid some of the photos already. I will change them around over time. That's a Comcast.net template and I do not have a lot of control. I may do one in Dreamweaver and upload it. That's what I used to do the original Quick-Clean site. I need to retake one of the photos, I noticed it is blurred. I did resize the one of that cue that is too big. I have to delete and redo the site pretty much to keep the photos in that order. Very stark control panel on this thing. You guys be sure to check out my hunt club picture (last one right now). We have lots of fun.
http://home.comcast.net/~spyder-murphy/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Frank_Glenn
05-22-2004, 09:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JClark:</font><hr> Buy the game target pool til you get home it's a great start. <hr /></blockquote>

This is how I learned to use english. It's lots of fun. You can handicap it and still have fun (good players get 1 try, intermediate 2 trys, beginners 3 tries, etc)