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View Full Version : Anyone have experience with Chandivert Champions?



Leviathan
05-14-2004, 08:30 AM
Can anyone here tell me whether Chandivert Champions are noticeably softer than Le Pros? Any other comments about the Champions? Comments about Chandivert Eurekas?

I'm aware that Mueller's classifies Champions as medium (74.2 hardness rating) and Le Pros as medium hard (78.2), but that doesn't mean much to me. I've been playing with Sumos (recommended by the Cassman) and Le Pros, and they do the job, but I'd like to experiment with something a little softer. (Not interested in laminated tips.)

Thanks--AS

Scott Lee
05-14-2004, 02:10 PM
Chandivert has been producing quality tips for 100 years.
In the 60's & 70's all the top players used "French Champion" tips, which were, and still are produced by the Chandivert company. Excellent one-piece leather tips, imo. However, with the proliferation of layered tips, there are many great tips available today!

Scott Lee

Rod
05-14-2004, 02:22 PM
That hardness level sounds bogus. At one time a Champion was not very hard. I would say that today however they are easily harder than a le-pro. There not soft tips by any means. I'm going buy some I sold off, two or three years ago. I'm not sure the change from sumo to a champion is what your looking for.

Rod

Chris Cass
05-14-2004, 04:02 PM
Hi Alan,

If you want to go down a tad try the Triangle tips. The Champion tips in the old days were noted for their play with Ivory ferrules. JAT

Regards,

C.C.

#### leonard
05-14-2004, 05:40 PM
I played with a Black Diamond tip 40 years ago and its memory still lingers.. It's not to be confused with todays black diamond.####

Frank_Glenn
05-14-2004, 08:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> That hardness level sounds bogus. At one time a Champion was not very hard. I would say that today however they are easily harder than a le-pro. There not soft tips by any means. I'm going buy some I sold off, two or three years ago. I'm not sure the change from sumo to a champion is what your looking for.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

I tried to get some today (Champion). They are no more. If someone has some they will let go at a reasonable price, I'm interested. I can use 13mm and/or 14mm.

stickman
05-14-2004, 09:21 PM
I think the triangle might be a good choice. Its not as hard as the Sumo, but harder than the LePro. (At least in my experience)
The triangle is one of the best non-layered tips in my opinion.

Chris Cass
05-14-2004, 11:54 PM
Hi Jim,

Yep, I know it's in the middle too. I just don't know what he's looking for. I would like to know if the Sumo is too hard for him or too soft? If I knew the reason for the change I could guesstimate in which direction to go. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Alan, will let us know I'm sure. Funny, no matter what tip you choose they all have their advantages and disadvantages. It all has to do with adjusting the tip to compliment your game. So basically, you need to find out what you like about your game. LOL It's so much easier said then done, hey Jim? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Regards,

C.C.

Leviathan
05-15-2004, 04:43 AM
Hi, Chris--I'm looking for a steer to something that's softer than a Le Pro but holds its shape better than an Elk Master. If there is such a thing! I think that a tip like this might give me a little extra draw and might eliminate maybe one miscue a week--the one that costs me $50. Seriously, I'm okay with the Sumos and Le Pros I use now; this is just something I'm curious about, something to mess with.

(By the way, the Sumos perform just the way you said they would. Most of them hold their shape very well and resist glazing. They hit hard. I seem to miscue a little more often with them than with Le Pros, but I like 'em a lot overall.)

Regards--AS

Later: I don't feel much difference between the hardness of a good Le Pro and the hardness of a good Triangle. I'd like to go a little softer than either of them.

stickman
05-15-2004, 05:45 AM
A little softer than a LePro and holds the shape ~Thats tough. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I have some Royal Oaks ordered but haven't gotten them yet. They should be a little softer, but I don't know yet how they hold their shape, or what they hit like. They're cheap though. I liked the Sumo, but it eventually firmed up and over time became too hard for my liking. The occasional miscues became more frequent after they became more seasoned.

Finding the perfect tip is a personal thing and takes time to sort out, but it is an adventurous and educational process. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
05-15-2004, 06:11 AM
Hi Alan,

Ok, now I know where your coming from. I suggest a Everest tip. I wish I had one to send you. They're a great tip. It's a layered job so it holds it's shape well. They sand like a hard tip, but are a medium. They hit with all the control of a soft tip.

You'll get all the juice you'll ever need and great for finesse shots. Miscues are mainly from bad cueing. With the Sumo one has to stay within the circumference of a quarter or it's easy to miscue. They have their benefits though. Now, the Everest you can venture out away from ctr ball a lot easier.

All these tips have trade offs. The Everest is great for a soft shooting player that wants to menuver around the table with ease. They're listed as a MH tip but just below the hardness of the LaPro. I think you'll like them.

Regards,

C.C.

Leviathan
05-15-2004, 06:36 AM
Thanks, Chris and Stickman: maybe I'll try an Everest. Bad cueing!? Me??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

AS

Rich R.
05-15-2004, 06:53 AM
Chris, if you could venture a guess, how would you compare the Everest with either a Moori medium or soft?

From you discription, the everest sounds like a very interesting tip, for me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Troy
05-15-2004, 08:21 AM
Just to add my 2 --- Le Pro's vary so much in hardness that you should be able to find some softer than Triangle but will still hold shape &amp; chalk. Sometimes I go through 5-10-15 Le Pro's to find one to match what a customer has said he wants.

Troy..~~~ Personally, I prefer a Talisman Pro Soft... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Cost more but last longer.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Later: I don't feel much difference between the hardness of a good Le Pro and the hardness of a good Triangle. I'd like to go a little softer than either of them. <hr /></blockquote>

stickman
05-15-2004, 10:05 AM
I've heard good things about the everest. I've been too cheap to try one though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif blush blush It's sort of silly when I don't mind spending the same amount for a jump/break tip. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Sid_Vicious
05-15-2004, 10:42 AM
"Miscues are mainly from bad cueing."

You get another bingo prize CC. It continues to amaze me how so many shooters orbit around a tip as a cause. Fix the stroke, don't attack the innocent little piece on the end of the cue. They'd gain so much more if they did that, IMMHSO ;-) sid

Chris Cass
05-15-2004, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Thanks, Chris and Stickman: maybe I'll try an Everest. Bad cueing!? Me??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
AS <hr /></blockquote>

Please don't take any offense. I don't care who you are, everyone does it every now and then. Even, Scott Lee but don't tell him I told ya. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

You and I need to get togather one of these days.

Regards,

C.C.~~I know you didn't take offense, we are longtime friends and I wish everyone had your veiw of life.

Chris Cass
05-15-2004, 11:07 AM
Hi Frank,

There's one cuemaker that I know of that I saw myself an old box of Champion tips, in his shop. His name is Jeff Hicks. He's from Stronghurst, IL. He also makes one of the finest SP cues. A friend of mine ordered one about 4 yrs ago atleast and still hasn't gotten it. Jeff says he makes more money setting up and repairing pool tables and for some odd reason he does anything I want. He is a good family man and takes care of his Mom and Dad. I think that's why we have so much in common.

I'll give him a call and see if he still has the box left. I believe they're the ones with the red fiber back?

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
05-15-2004, 11:15 AM
Hi Rich,

I myself never used the Moori med or soft. When I did use the Moori it was the hard only. I was disapointed when the 3rd generation came out. The Moori H was not like the previous one. It was about 1/2 or more grade harder. Felt like a club hit with way less response.

I will say that the Everest is user friendly and it shaped really nice. They give a ton of juice. If your shooting with a very light grip and find yourself barely hitting the ball half the time, it's for you. It was like you didn't have to work at all but you do have to learn how to control it. The min I hit with them I knew what Efren was all about. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
05-15-2004, 11:26 AM
Hi ####,

Hummm, who made those tips? I don't think I've ever heard of them. BTW, did you always shoot with the Paradise cue? Were they stock for the cue or did you have the tips put on later? Interesting.

Regards,

C.C.~~president of the #### Leonard fan club. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Leviathan
05-15-2004, 11:46 AM
Ha! It's cool, Chris--no offense in the world. You know that!

And what you and Sid say about miscues is right on the money: when I miscue, I've poked at the ball. I think a softer, grabbier tip may be a little more forgiving of a marginal stroke, but a player who pokes at the ball generally gets what he deserves!

--AS /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Leviathan
05-15-2004, 11:50 AM
Thanks, Troy: The Talisman Pro Soft sounds like another good option.--AS

Frank_Glenn
05-15-2004, 11:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Frank,

There's one cuemaker that I know of that I saw myself an old box of Champion tips, in his shop. His name is Jeff Hicks. He's from Stronghurst, IL. He also makes one of the finest SP cues. A friend of mine ordered one about 4 yrs ago atleast and still hasn't gotten it. Jeff says he makes more money setting up and repairing pool tables and for some odd reason he does anything I want. He is a good family man and takes care of his Mom and Dad. I think that's why we have so much in common.

I'll give him a call and see if he still has the box left. I believe they're the ones with the red fiber back?

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks, Chris. Yes they have the red backer (sometimes black, backer, too).

Chris Cass
05-15-2004, 01:06 PM
Oh Frank,

Your in luck and I was right. I just talked with Jeff over the phone. Yes, they're the original Champion tips. In the original box too. I asked him if I could buy the whole box but he said no. He said he doesn't install many anymore but likes having them around. I think he just likes the box they came in and values them as sort of a collector thing. I don't know. He said he'd sell me a few although he also said they appear to be dried out. I said, oh. He then replied he had installed a few but hasn't had any feedback on them. Anyway, I know he keeps them in the garage where his lathe and set up is so, I'm thinking although they're old they might be still good. Being a cool and dry place.

It's 1 1/2 hrs away and I'm leaving now. I know it's a drive but I don't see him mailing me any. I'll take my cue and just maybe, I can get some action down there? Either way, I'll pick the best ones out for you. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

#### leonard
05-15-2004, 01:29 PM
Chris here is the black diamond story. Charlie "Mumbles" Ravita a Albany Pool Legend was playing at Scottys poolroom in downtown Albany he was stuck maybe a hundred when a guy comes in the room and goes around the room trying to sell a two piece cue. He wanted 12 dollars which Charlie gave him, and he left saying and that is a Black Diamond Tip on it.

He went from down a hundred to winning in no time. Now he brings the cue to Joe Cantons room to show him his find. It was a 22 oz cue with maybe a 12 1/2 tip. All you had to do to draw the cueball the length of the table was a nice easy stroke and the cueball was coming back.

The chalk didn't stay on the tip but the cue never missed cued. We all thought of it as a magic wand. Six years later the tip is still the same size no signs of wear. I am still trying to find the cue and tip forty years later.####

Rich R.
05-15-2004, 01:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> I've heard good things about the everest. I've been too cheap to try one though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif blush blush It's sort of silly when I don't mind spending the same amount for a jump/break tip. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Stick, I'm using Moori now. I don't think I'll be going up in price. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
What have I got to loose? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rich R.
05-15-2004, 02:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Rich,

I myself never used the Moori med or soft. When I did use the Moori it was the hard only. I was disapointed when the 3rd generation came out. The Moori H was not like the previous one. It was about 1/2 or more grade harder. Felt like a club hit with way less response.

I will say that the Everest is user friendly and it shaped really nice. They give a ton of juice. If your shooting with a very light grip and find yourself barely hitting the ball half the time, it's for you. It was like you didn't have to work at all but you do have to learn how to control it. The min I hit with them I knew what Efren was all about. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks for the information Chris. I am interested in the Everest tip.

I was using the Moori mediums, but after all the talk, about the newest Moori's being harder, I had a Moori soft installed at Valley Forge. So far, it is OK, but it just doesn't quite do it for me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'm not crazy about harder tips, but the Moori soft is a little too soft, for me. I'm not sure if I should try the new Moori mediums or, now, try the Everest. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I have plenty of time to think about it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
05-15-2004, 06:04 PM
Have no fear ####. I will join you in your quest. I will use all my keen detective skills and seek out this old Black Diamond tip. About the cue? I have no clue. Maybe the guy wanted the cue back for himself and tracket it down and bought it back? I can picture the guy leaving the ph. Mad cause he had to sell it and knew it was like stealing to buy it for 12 lousy bucks. I swear I can picture this guy. Great story! Spent fourty yrs looking for that cue and tip. ####, your the best.

Regards,

C.C.~~

Chris Cass
05-15-2004, 06:16 PM
Hi Rich,

To be honest with you I think it's a good tip. I think they sell for $9. ea. I don't know? For the money you pay it lasts a good while. They might even compare closer to the old Moori medium. What ever you choose I hope it does the trick.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
05-15-2004, 06:28 PM
Hi Frank,

Well, I'm back. LOL I couldn't find any action and did get to talk with JimS another poster but he was in Chicago when I was near his house.

Anyway, I got'em. The box was check this out. It was a red marble looking box with a taped bottom from the factory. There was a big square sticker saying Chapion across the front. It also said below, "A French Style Tip" below that said, "a Fiber Back something to that nature and was blocked by this, check this out, a $6. sticker. hahahaha

I took my glasses out and picked the best ones. They have a red backing, 14mm on the box in writing. I did see some that had the backing seperated from the tip a bit but didn't take those. They all appeared to be dry but still looking very good. Nothing that some good leather conditioner on the side wouldn't cure. IMHO

Anyway, I didn't do this to them and leave them to your care. There were only about ten tips gone from the full box or 50. I think you'll be happy.

Send me your snail mail in a pm.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Frank_Glenn
05-15-2004, 09:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>
Send me your snail mail in a pm.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

OK, I sent it. Thanks, Frank

Leviathan
05-16-2004, 05:20 AM
Hi, Rod--Thanks for the info.

AS

#### leonard
05-17-2004, 05:45 AM
Chris my friend who has the 62 inch Rambow has a box of Champions they have to be 55 years old. I'll have to check them out.####

Chris Cass
05-17-2004, 06:15 AM
Hi ####,

I believe the box would be a collector item. Although I've never tried one I remember the box from yrs back as a kid. The two sticks crossing with the rack of 3 balls underneath.

The tips were dried out a bit but I think they're salvagable. I wouldn't know what to use, maybe baseball glove oil? Maybe, wipe them down with some leather conditioner from Miguires? Beats me?

I do know Frank will have to come up with that answer. It was nice to see my friend Jeff Hicks again. He's also a friend of Mark Wilson' too. Funny, how Jeff is so down to earth and his standards for a cuemaker are as well.

I asked him if he was going to make cues again? He said he hasn't and has been setting up tables. More money he claims. I told him he makes fine cues and see no reason he can't make it. Do you know what he said? He told me that he doesn't charge a lot for his cues. He told me he loves making cues but doesn't believe people should have to pay big money for them. He went on to say he got a form to fill out from Brad Simpson to get in the Blue Book of Cues but said the form is somewhere in his shop and wasn't going to reply.

I begged him to reconcider and I hated to see such a good talent go to waist. He said, when he can't move and setup table jobs he will return to cue making. I guess Mark has been on him too about this. LOL He told me something interesting about Mark. We both know how Mark is a huge fan of the St. Louis Baseball team and lives there too. Well, Mark has surprizingly been teaching pool to the entire St. Louis team. They hired him to teach their players how to relax and develope their focus and concentration, getting pool lessons. Now, I have to see how this will show in their performance playing ball. This may catch on and that might be a new door open for the rest of the BCA instructors. Who know's? It might even be a potentioal sponsorship role for the future of pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif (Grady, get to work.)

Best Regards,

C.C.

SpiderMan
05-17-2004, 09:01 AM
Champions seem to play OK, but I have two big issues with them:

1. The consistency of the product is terrible. I bought six from Meuller's about two years ago, and saw nearly a 2-to-1 variation in thickness of the tips.

2. The adhesive used to hold the pad onto the back of the tip seemed to be something like contact cement (like the old tweeten's 10-minute stuff). You have to be very careful when burnishing this tip. Too much heat and the pad/tip interface will loosen up.

SpiderMan

#### leonard
05-17-2004, 09:43 AM
Chris in the 60s when I was playing golf and pool one of my regular foursome after seeing me hit my 72nd drive straight down the middle said now I see you know how to concentrate it doesn't matter what you do.####

Leviathan
05-17-2004, 10:15 AM
Ouch! Thanks for the warning, Spiderman.--AS