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Predator314
05-18-2004, 02:06 PM
Anyone here play in VNEA league?

During the tourney I shot in this weekend for the WV Moose State championship, my partner for the event ran into quite an interesting "rule" in the singles event.

First of all, we were playing 8 ball, foul on the break = BIH behind the line. Open table after the break regardless of what you make. The only shot that needs to be called is the 8 (with the patch). BIH on any cue ball foul after the break. Pretty simple rules and they seem to work good for years.

There were some new teams and evidently they play in a VNEA league. My partner was playing one of these guys and he called a safety. He shot his own ball in, but since he called a safety, he didn't have to shoot again.

Is this a legit rule? It's a pretty dumb one if you ask me. The thing that pisses me off is that he got a ruling from a ref that was a VNEA player as well and told them it was legal. After the match was over, my partner told them the tourney director about it and they agreed that the whole match should be played over. My partner didn't want to play the match over because he didn't want to hold up the tournament so he declined and took the loss. What a mess.

cycopath
05-18-2004, 02:20 PM
That's a BCA rule, isn't it?

Predator314
05-18-2004, 02:29 PM
I don't know. I don't play in any leagues. I don't understand why you would have a rule like that.

SPetty
05-18-2004, 03:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> That's a BCA rule, isn't it? <hr /></blockquote>I don't think that's legal in BCA.

I'm working from memory here, but it's something like: You can't claim "suit" until you've legally pocketed a called ball. Pocketing a ball using a "safety" is not "legally" pocketing a ball. So, "suit" can't be claimed by calling a safety.

Leviathan
05-18-2004, 03:33 PM
Hi, Pred. I think that BCA rule 4.12 is intended to give players additional opportunities to make smart tactical moves. I guess it's kinda like the situation with the rules of chess: chess would be simpler if there were no provision for castling or for capturing pawns en passant, but that kind of simplification wouldn't necessarily make chess a better game. It isn't hard to think up situations where a 4.12 safety would be a smart play--but anyone who plays such a safety better know what he's doing, 'cause he's giving up the table and taking one of his own soldiers out of the game.

AS

SPetty
05-18-2004, 06:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> I think that BCA rule 4.12 is intended to give players additional opportunities to make smart tactical moves. <hr /></blockquote>Well, now that I have a minute... Seems like we almost have a (another) conflict in the rules...

4.12 “SAFETY” SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a “safety” to the opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes.


Okay, so it's a legal shot, but an illegally pocketed ball. Now... What does it say about claiming choice of group?

4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

So I still think the table is open even if a player attempts to claim choice of group by calling a safety on the first shot after the break. The pocketed ball is an illegally pocketed ball and so does not count toward choice of group.

Ken
05-18-2004, 06:57 PM
It is a legit rule in VNEA or BCA when playing "call pocket". You already said you were not playing call pocket except on the eight ball so the rule did not apply to your Moose State championship.

The only way there can be a called safety is if you are required to call the pocket the object ball is intended to go into. In VNEA and BCA the pockets must be called or they are simply assumed to be called when they are obvious. The same in straight pool.

This gives you the opportunity to call a pocket that you do not intend to make the ball in and therefore get a safety by ending your inning. Rather than do it in that round about manner you can simply call "safety". That option is not available if the game is not "call pocket".

The VNEA guys clearly don't know the difference and played by their rules while not bothering to call balls. They erroneously thought the saftey shot was an option but it was not.

Ken in CT

Leviathan
05-18-2004, 10:50 PM
Hiya, SPetty. Your interpretation of 4.10, 4.12, and 4.16 makes sense to me, but God only knows what BCA would say about about a called safety on an open table. Maybe the CCB's resident BCA refs have been briefed on this.

AS

SPetty
05-19-2004, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> ...God only knows what BCA would say about about a called safety on an open table. Maybe the CCB's resident BCA refs have been briefed on this. <hr /></blockquote>I know what they'd say - where do you think I learned it? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

RedHell
05-19-2004, 02:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> I think that BCA rule 4.12 is intended to give players additional opportunities to make smart tactical moves. <hr /></blockquote>Well, now that I have a minute... Seems like we almost have a (another) conflict in the rules...

4.12 “SAFETY” SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a “safety” to the opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes.


Okay, so it's a legal shot, but an illegally pocketed ball. <hr /></blockquote>

SPetty,

These are not conflicting rules. 4.10 is written to allow safety shot and is described as a legal shot meaning that it isn't a foul to call safety and pot one of your ball.

4.12 is there to define illegally pocketed balls, because you keep shooting after legally pocketing a ball. So this avoid a safety call and a pocketed ball with the player claiming he is allowed to shoot again as he has pocketed a ball. Pocketing illegally a ball is not a foul either.

The way this should be read is one is a legal shot therefore no foul and the other is an illegaly pocket ball therefore the inning is ended.

Leviathan
05-19-2004, 04:57 PM
Ouch, SPetty!--AS /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

mr8ballme
05-21-2004, 07:10 AM
I play in a vnea league in Roanoke Va. and you can shoot a ball in and call safe and you dont have to shoot again. But we also have won 10 Va. State doubles, and team events in the Va. Moose (Mike Painter, Ray Detamore, Doug Carter, and Greg Taylor) and you (CAN NOT) call safe and shoot a ball in. The Moose rules are differant then VNEA on that point. If you are going to the international ask Ray Detamore or Willie Compton about it and they will tell you the same thing. We had a guy try to do it here and they wouldn't let him. Hope this helps /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif