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View Full Version : Local Player gets 6 month ban,,,,, your opinion



cueball1950
05-18-2004, 11:06 PM
A local player here in my home room in albany ny recently got banned for 6 months for spitting in another players face. apparently they were playing for 20 jelly beans a game 9 ball. Player A was down 240 beans and wanted to raise it to 40 beans a game. Player B refuses so player A gets pissed and spits in his face. well the owner was not there but came in, found out and has banned player A for 6 months. Which i personally do not think is long enough. Besides being disgusting, i believe it is also illegal in NY to spit in someone elses face. i would force Player A to have an aids test done. this day and age you cannot be to careful out there....your opinion please................mike

Chris Cass
05-18-2004, 11:25 PM
Hi Mike,

My opinion player A should have gotten his a$$ beat. I hope he's never allowed back and I hope it kills his action in town. I can see the guy getting mad for not letting him bump the bet. He probably seen no chance in getting even when down so far. Atleast at 20 a pop. However, it could have been a move too. Maybe, he wanted to get out without playing and what better way than to start a fight? If that wasn't the case it all comes down to giving himself and the place a bad name. I'm with the owner of the hall. Atleast he stood up and banned the jerk. Bottom line is, you don't lose what you can't afford to. That lesson cost him 6 mths. Maybe, he'll learn something.

Regards,

C.C.

Popcorn
05-18-2004, 11:45 PM
Unless the player had a history, I would just warn him to keep that stuff out of the pool room. The owner is not an innocent party here as he condones the gambling and collects money from the players for the privilege to do so.

Chris Cass
05-19-2004, 12:28 AM
Hi Popcorn,

I see your point but as a counterman I see things a bit differently. The owner can't work every hr and control many things going on in his place. Not even drugs. Heck, I can't stop these kids from tearing up the john.

There's gambling going on even small wagers and many wouldn't know it. It's done by supposed adults too. He could ban both for gambling but it's also his source of income. It's a tough call. You want it to stop and yet you don't want to cut your nose off to spite your face. Atleast he did something. In my ph a guy was caught sitting on the floor smoking a joint. He got kicked out for like 3 mths. I thought, what a dumba$$. His parents spend tons of doe every week there. The kid is like 35 too. Heck, they over serve more than anything. That should be a major crime. IMHO I look at it this way. When I was coming up I was not much different than the kids now days. Only we had better music. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

pooljunkie73
05-19-2004, 12:49 AM
He would never see the inside of my poolhall again. That has got to be the most ignorant thing to do to another human being.

Kent Mc.

Nightstalker
05-19-2004, 05:30 AM
No one has ever spit in my face. If someone ever does they better pray they can run faster than I can. That guy should have gotten his ass beat and been banned for life. There is not a much lower thing to do to someone else than to spit in their face. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Ken
05-19-2004, 06:10 AM
Chris, the betting that was described between the players is not illegal in New York so I see no reason for the owner to be concerned over that.

Spitting on someone would probably be considered disorderly conduct.

Here are the pertinent laws:

S 225.00 Gambling offenses; definitions of terms.
2. "Gambling." A person engages in gambling when he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event NOT UNDER HIS CONTROL OR INFLUENCE, upon an agreement or understanding that he will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.


S 240.20 Disorderly conduct.
A person is guilty of disorderly conduct when, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof:
7. He creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose.
Disorderly conduct is a violation.

I would ban the guy for life.
Ken in CT

Keith Talent
05-19-2004, 07:53 AM
I think the guy got off easy. Anybody might do a stupid thing in the heat of the moment, so I wouldn't want to dish out a lifetime ban. But I'd have given him a year to think about it.

So no punches thrown? Hard to believe. So was this the guy, Mike, I was hearing was a two-time felon? For assault? Maybe that's why the other guy had the sense to back down.

JClark
05-19-2004, 08:59 AM
He should be banned for at least a year and all his action messed up. Our great sport dosn't need a person like that period.

catscradle
05-19-2004, 09:00 AM
He should have been gone forever!! Incredibly ignorant. I would say I would absolutely kick his a$$, but maybe he is the local equivalent of crazy Mike Tyson and everybody knows it.

Chris Cass
05-19-2004, 09:58 AM
Hi Ken,

Out here you can be licenced for gambling. I don't see a problem with the gambling what so ever. That happens, I do. The problem I see is, the jerk went past the boundries of responsible gambling. This doesn't surprize me though. Some people think their suppose to win and when they find themselves in a trap, they think everyone is going to give them the same opportunity, to get out as they would. That doesn't happen. He didn't have the right to think someone would let him out.

He knew he was in over his head and should have realized it way before that. Probably did and that's what pi$$ed him off even more to begin with. If it were sets then, he could of asked, if he could buy out cheap or atleast continue the next day. Not all gamblers are smart. Either way, what he did, he deserved to get kicked out and moreso get a mouth full of Meucci. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

His opponent was getting lucky or just plane shooting well. He lied to himself thinking it would turn around and it didn't. So, now he's stuck and grasping for straws asking to raise the bet. He has to to get even but the guy refuses and now he's off the wall. Playing per game says, "I can quit at anytime" "No questions asked."

That's why you play sets and lock up the doe. You guarentee how many sets and also if there's a chance for adjusting at a certain point. The guy who got spat on, was smart. He got the doe. The kid gets kicked out and also gets the bad rap as bad action. I'd be willing to bet, he would have only lost 5 games and he would have quit, if the tables were turned. Maybe even less. Mike know's I'm sure.

The real question is, who picked up the time? LOL

Regards,

C.C.

tateuts
05-19-2004, 10:50 AM
I would have banned the player permanently for business, legal, and moral reasons.

I believe that the player who spit performed an act of physical violence. I would be concerned that the customer could be prone to losing their temper and swinging a cue, chair, or throw a ball - seriously injuring or even killing another customer or my employee.

The issue is: Is he dangerous? He probably is. If you don't ban the player, and if at some time in the future he seriously assaults another customer or your employee, you as the business owner would be wide open for monetary damages because you knew, or should have known, that this customer was prone to violence. You would certainly be morally responsible because you failed to act when you reasonably knew he could potentially behave like this in the future.

As for business reasons, I would not want someone like that hanging around my shop and scaring off my customers.

Chris

Nightstalker
05-19-2004, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> I would have banned the player permanently for business, legal, and moral reasons.

I believe that the player who spit performed an act of physical violence. I would be concerned that the customer could be prone to losing their temper and swinging a cue, chair, or throw a ball - seriously injuring or even killing another customer or my employee.

The issue is: Is he dangerous? He probably is. If you don't ban the player, and if at some time in the future he seriously assaults another customer or your employee, you as the business owner would be wide open for monetary damages because you knew, or should have known, that this customer was prone to violence. You would certainly be morally responsible because you failed to act when you reasonably knew he could potentially behave like this in the future.

As for business reasons, I would not want someone like that hanging around my shop and scaring off my customers.

Chris

<hr /></blockquote>
Excellent points and I agree on all counts. Someone like that is a time bomb waiting to explode. He lost his rights to frequent that establishment, IMO.

9 Ball Girl
05-19-2004, 12:05 PM
6 months is nothing compared to a permanent ban which happened to one local player at the poolhall I go to. But his case was "different" 'cause I think he pulled out a knife on a guy. Of course, money was involved.

Ross
05-19-2004, 12:15 PM
I would have barred him, but wouldn't have put a set time limit on it. Many, many months later he might get the opportunity to convince me that he understands why that kind of behavior is unacceptable in my poolroom and convince me that he has learned his lesson. He would also have to apologize to the guy he spit on. So it wouldn't be a matter of just time, it would be a matter of seeing a change in attitude.

Sid_Vicious
05-19-2004, 12:33 PM
There's a place in Dallas which used to post a sign saying any ban you receive is accompanied with a monetary fine of $250 to the establishment before you were allowed back in. I'd imagine that little extra would permanently ban many without even having to be told so...sid

Popcorn
05-19-2004, 01:00 PM
It depends what the owners intent was in the decision. Was it to protect other patrons from being spit on? Was it to be a punishment to the guy, so he won't do it again? Was it to be an example for others that may feel the urge to spit on someone else? Was it just an exercise in power, because he was in a position to do so. Either way it is a lose-lose situation for all involved. The owner could have handled it very different, but seemed to lack the tact and ability to do so. He chose the easy mindless route. Best to have just talked with both parties in private and made sure something like this was not going to happen again. It is entirely possible that after the talk, he may choose to tell both to take their business elsewhere. Either way his initial response was typical of many business owners, then they wonder why their business does so badly or at least are such a headache to own. A pool room can be like a big dysfunctional family. There is a little more to owning one then say a shoe store, you form relationships with these people and many feel like more then customers. Actually, I have never seen anyone barred who was not back in a week later once all the parties calmed down.

dr_billiards
05-19-2004, 01:02 PM
I have never broken a cue, but in this case that guy would have had it broken over his head, then had me on top of him beating the f*** out of him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
05-19-2004, 01:41 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif,

Your an animal. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~used to be but now I'm 128lbs. and yes, I gained 2 lbs before this weight measurement. hahahaha

tateuts
05-19-2004, 01:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Best to have just talked with both parties in private and made sure something like this was not going to happen again. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, indeed after the talk everything was sorted out. It was all just a simple misunderstanding. Player "A" just gave the following excuses (choose one):

1. He was choking so badly he thought there most be something in his throat which he inadvertantly coughed up on Player B.

2. Player A tried to prove once and for all the premise that there's no such thing as a good loser in a pool room.

3. Player "A" explained that he doesn't swallow.

4. Eating crap in the match had a gag effect.

5. He had just stopped picking his nose in public and this was a withdrawal symptom.

6. He explained that he aimed for the spitoon and missed. This made sense because he missed everyting else that day too.

7. He thought that causing a scene would divert attention from his bad 9 ball patterns.

8. Player A complained that Player B wouldn't jack up the bet when he was down. The owner said "What?" and kicked Player B out - bad influence in a pool room.

Chris

Popcorn
05-19-2004, 03:40 PM
I know you were trying to be funny or sarcastic but, the room owner is not there to decide who was right or wrong. He has not interest in why it happened, just an assurance it won't happen in his place again. Respect his place, respect his customers and respect him, or just go somewhere else, it is up to them.

cueball1950
05-19-2004, 03:49 PM
No Keith. it was not the same guy they were talking about. but to answer 1 question everyone seems to have is YES, he is a sure fire hot head. but this is the 1st time since he has been coming to this room(about 6 years) that he has ever done anything like this. yes he thinks he is a tough guy. about 6'4" maybe 280lbs so his size is intimidating to most of the people there. bottom line is. This guy does not care 1 way or the other if he is ever allowed back in..........mike

Barbara
05-19-2004, 04:40 PM
Like Ross said, There had to be a change in this guy's attitude and a sincere apology to his opponent before he should be let in again.

And the Golden Cue is really interested in hosting a JPNEWT event next year. I'm just trying to figure out which month to fit them in.

Barbara

charlieb
05-19-2004, 10:21 PM
A real regular was 86'd at HT in Bellflower and has not been allowed back for going on 2+ yrs. He has moved his action to another county and I doubt he will ever be allowed back. There are at least a 1/2 dz rumors as to why. All are probably possible.

Tommy_Davidson
05-19-2004, 11:24 PM
If someone spits in my face for not giving him a shot to get back even in half the time it took for me to get him down is going to find himself on the mat with an arm twisted up behind his back,Gracie style. Tommy D.

pooltchr
05-20-2004, 06:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> The owner could have handled it very different...Best to have just talked with both parties in private and made sure something like this was not going to happen again.<hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn, I'm disappointed! This is the same mindset that has parents all over the place giving kids "time out" rather than laying down the rules and enforcing them. So now we have "big kids" that think it's ok to spit in someone's face.

If I owned the room, the guy would never be back.

CopyGuy
05-20-2004, 08:55 AM
Actually I think Popcorn is viewing this from a business standpoint. The PH owner is in the business to make money, given that, Popcorn's approach is entirely appropriate. We are talking about adults here, what they do among themselves is their business, their responsibility.

Popcorn
05-20-2004, 09:01 AM
What would be the intent of throwing him out for good, other then showing you can do it.? What would it prove? I doubt if he were a $140. a week customer you would do that, be honest. I have to get back to the gambling thing, as an owner you are condoning it and indirectly profiting from it and the gambling is going to create that kind of thing, same thing with drinking. You can't have it both ways. You have to be honest, you can't be barring every person you don't happen to like or does something you don't like. You are not there to teach people life lessons, you just run a pool room. I dare say, half the people who come in are probably despicable in one way or another. I.e. I guy comes in with someone other then his wife or steals from his job, do you begin throwing them all out? The spiting incident happened in your place, but only to the extent that you don't want it to happen again, (At least in your place) it is none of your business. In the real world you don't throw out paying customers without very good reason and this would not even begin to rise to that. A single dispute between to customers can be easily settled. If it is ongoing thing between them, as long as it stay outside who cares. I am not trying to be difficult, just honest, I would have dealt with it differently without anything personal. Sounds like you feel some need to get involved in peoples lives, then even for you, would it not be better to help them settle this, rather then just throw the one guy out?

pooltchr
05-20-2004, 09:25 AM
I think you have an obligation to all of your customers, not just the two involved in the incident. In addition, it really depends on the type of room you are running, and the customer base you are catering to. If you have a pool hall/bar/party type place you attract one type of customer. If you have an upscale room, you are looking to attract a different kind of customer. I guess I should have said if I owned the kind of pool room I would want to own, and this happened, he wouldn't be allowed back. Someone who can spit in another person's face is not the kind of customers I would be trying to attract in the first place.

The other problem with your arguement is you are tying to treat people like adults when they seem to be acting like children.

Over all, like I said, I guess it would depend a lot on the kind of room it took place in.

Nightstalker
05-20-2004, 09:30 AM
Slime attracts other slime. If you want to be around that kind of person, fine. Room owners do need to evaluate what kind of patrons they want to allow to frequent their establishment. When things get too bad business will fly the coup.

Popcorn
05-20-2004, 10:16 AM
quote
"Over all, like I said, I guess it would depend a lot on the kind of room it took place in."

That was my original point, it sounds like an everyday pool room with people playing, drinking, and gambling and hanging out and things like this are going to happen. If settled, it would over and forgotten. He (the owner) has now turned it into a real incident with the barring. This in no way has settled anything between the two, if anything, he has fueled the fire. Contrary to what you may believe, you don't treat adults like children, you treat them like adults and act like an adult yourself.

Voodoo Daddy
05-20-2004, 10:41 AM
If I was the owner...he would never step a foot in my place again. I was player B, I woulda threw him the beatin' of his life and anyone that try to stop it. Gambling isnt the sewing circle, you cant take the heat...dont play. PLUS, if player B did throw him a beatin' I wouldnt penelize him at all because in my eyes he was defending himeself.

Popcorn
05-20-2004, 11:25 AM
I an curious what the reaction of the guy that got spit on was? I saw an incident like this years ago. It was two old guys, one spit on the other and the guy that got spit on went out to his car for his gun. When he came back the gun misfired and someone there grabbed him. The guy with the guns name was Dominick he was an old Mustache Pete.

CopyGuy
05-20-2004, 02:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> ... The guy with the guns name was Dominick he was an old Mustache Pete. <hr /></blockquote>

Now I'm curious,...

what happened to Dominick?

And what is an "old Mustache Pete"? :^)

CopyGuy
05-20-2004, 02:14 PM
I'm guessing an old italian / mafia type?

Voodoo Daddy
05-20-2004, 03:47 PM
The gun jogged my memory of a time when I was playing this older latin man named Carlos. He had a bad heart and a worse temper...anyway I was beating him pretty bad one night and he looked at me and said "Play for 5k a set or I quit". I said "quit, I beat you enough tonight". He then said "how would you like it if I got my gun and I shoot your big ass?" The only thing I could say was "WHERE is your gun?", he says "in my car"...I said "What makes you think you can get to your car?". Worse part was I only beat him for about $220, he died several weeks later of a heart attack!!!

Voodoo~~~laughing at "FOND" memories?

Chris Cass
05-20-2004, 03:59 PM
Hi Voodoo,

That's what makes me upset. Where do these guys get off on not taking responsibility for their lack of skill? It's always everything else and not themselves and their weaknesses.

Regards,

C.C.~~brother and forever friend of Steve', S. and K. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Popcorn
05-20-2004, 04:40 PM
Nothing happened to Dom, they just settled their differences and that was that.

Troy
05-20-2004, 05:31 PM
That's the point CC.
"Weaknesses ??? I ain't got no stinkin' WEAKNESSES !!!"... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Voodoo,

That's what makes me upset. Where do these guys get off on not taking responsibility for their lack of skill? It's always everything else and not themselves and their weaknesses.

Regards,

C.C.~~brother and forever friend of Steve', S. and K. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Chris Cass
05-20-2004, 09:27 PM
Hi Troy,

I know you don't. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Unfortunately, I know all of mine and I'm definitely not going to tell anyone here. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~can spit 15 feet. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

FastJoey
05-20-2004, 09:35 PM
if it was my pool hall i would ban him permantely for spitting..what a childish act..he is very lucky that guy did not beat his ass..antwhere in the U.S.A. it is considered a simple battery for spitting at someone and making contact..as far as gambling go so what ..if adults what to do it i say go for it...

Chris Cass
05-20-2004, 09:53 PM
Hi FastJoey,

Far as I'm concerned spitting on someone is the lowest form of disrespect you can give another human being. Only hate could bring that out. I'm wondering if he was nitted into playing? Something is missing. The guy had to be a regular. You wouldn't do that to a stranger, I wouldn't think?

Regrads,

C.C.

cueball1950
05-20-2004, 10:11 PM
1st: the current owners have owned this place for about 30
years and are real strict. they do care who you are. you break the rules. you are out.
2nd: these 2 guys have played together in the past and have only had minor disagreements.
3rd: player B, who got spit on, simply walked away to the mens room to wash his face. he is not really the combative type. would rather walk away type.
These room owners TAKE absolutely Nothing from anyone. I have known them for about 30 years or so and they would kick me out just as soon as anyone else if i broke the rules. There are plenty of players banned from this room that used to spend alot of money in there, so the money(amount a person spends in there) is not an issue.
I still feel that 6 months is not long enough. i feel a year minimum is in order..........................mike

Chris Cass
05-21-2004, 05:59 AM
Hi Mike,

The owners being strict and making money spent take a back seat to proper behavior is very admirable too. It's important to have consistant house rules. It tells everyone that the owners keep the same set of rules for everyone and nothing can trump that.

I'm sure word gets around to all the ph's in your area. Other owners will hear about it as the pool world is not tight lip'd. What goes around comes around. I personally think the guy killed all his action. Too bad it wasn't in the winter mths. Hats off to the guy that got spat on. Lord knows I couldn't. BTW, did the guy get stiffed?

Regards,

C.C.~~fair is good.

Sid_Vicious
05-21-2004, 07:25 AM
Extra points for walking away like the victim did. Anyone assaults my head, spit or otherwise would of instinctively have me duke'n it out with them, no collecting $200, no passing "go", straight to fist city. Those types of altercations are way too quick to get started, at least for me it is. Best thing you can do is prune out the bad elements, which sound to be the final result with this ph owner....sid

ladybilliards
05-21-2004, 05:22 PM
An aids test? I don't think you get HIV from someone spitting in your face. Yes, he should be banned from the poolhall.

lb