View Full Version : Referee Shenanigans at Hamiltucky Invitational
05-20-2004, 10:37 AM
Here's the situation. Last night 2 ladies teams were playing a match at our annual tourney.
Abigail uses the mechanical bridge to make a shot. The captain of the other team, Tammy, jumps and says the cue ball hit the bridge before Abigail removed it from the table.
Nobody else saw the foul. Abigail's opponent was not watching. Abigail's team all were watching and they insisted there was no foul. Abigail said there was no foul.
The League Operator was called to the scene. It got heated. All parties retreated to the office to discuss things. Many referees were in and out of the office after that.
A full 30 minutes later the ruling was made that the shot goes to the shooter if there is no ref present. This rule is clearly announced every night several times.
Abigail was cold by then. An easy runout turned into a loss.
I say Abigail got hosed. The shot should go to the shooter. If the opponent is adamant about a foul the balls can be re-racked and you start the game over.
Whatever, it should not take 30 minutes to decide something. But with Tammy involved anything is possible. She's a bit of a loose cannon.
What say ye, oh wise CCB jury?
05-20-2004, 10:42 AM
Can the captain of the opposing team call a foul or only the opponent?
05-20-2004, 10:50 AM
I don't know what rules you were playing but this is one thing I like from the VNEA rules. It is clearly stated that if no ref are called on the shot and the shooter does not concede a foul, the shooter is right.
One more thing I like from the VNEA rules, only the players involved in the game can call a foul. So it's stops the interruption of by-standers or team mates. In fact according to the rules, if a team member call a foul it is considered coaching and is a foul favoring the shooter.
In your case, you said the rule was clear, why couldn't a ref be called for the decision. Team mates call a foul, shooter doesn't conceide it, arguement goes on for a minute or so. Shooter calls a ref, ref didn't see the shot so he asks the shooter's opponent what he is calling a foul for, the ref then ask the shooter if it was a foul, shooter says no. Ref calls a no foul !
This take about 5 minutes to the max.
Anyway, that's how it's played here !
05-20-2004, 10:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Wally,
Can the captain of the opposing team call a foul or only the opponent?
Barbara <hr /></blockquote>
In APA the captain or the opponent can call a foul. Nobody else.
05-20-2004, 10:59 AM
Anywhere I've ever played, the rule is that if no referee is present to watch the shot, any dispute goes to the shooter. It shouldn't have taken a half hour to make the call. The opponent could throw a fit, but those are the rules. Once the ref made the call, and they continue bickering they should be warned once, then disqualified. JMO
05-20-2004, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> I don't know what rules you were playing but this is one thing I like from the VNEA rules. It is clearly stated that if no ref are called on the shot and the shooter does not concede a foul, the shooter is right..... <hr /></blockquote>
That was the rule, clearly stated several times before play began. Trouble is, Tammy is quite vociferous in these situations and she has her nose up the LO's ass so they almost bent the rule to accomodate her.
IMO it was pretty clear what the ruling should be. No foul.
The additional APA rule in this situation is this: if the parties involved can't agree, the balls are re-racked and the original breaker breaks.
Theoretically this could result in some unscrupulous players calling phantom fouls but this has never happened in the past.
If that happened repeatedly the offender would be punished for unsportsmanlike conduct.
05-20-2004, 11:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> ...they should be warned once, then disqualified. JMO <hr /></blockquote>
stickman that would be a dream come true for me considering the person involved
05-20-2004, 11:21 AM
Well I think that if it wasn't resolved within 10 minutes they should have re-racked and started over.
05-20-2004, 11:38 AM
I like the idea that if someone clearly disrupts a match and carrys on after a ruling has been made, boot em'
Once the shooter disputed the call, a ref should have ruled that the game be played over or that the call goes to the shooter.
Anything else is a PURE WASTE of time. Oh.. the pains of amature leagues....
05-20-2004, 07:07 PM
Once the call was made, and the other party continues distrupting the match, they are guilty of unsportsman like conduct. They could protest the the call to the LO without being unsportsman. If the LO agreed that the wrong call was made, the match could be replayed later. I know this from experience. I won a protest, replayed the game and ended up winning the match. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif In my situation, it was my very first APA match. The captain was down several tables away playing money matches. I wasn't at all familiar with the rules. I pointed at the pocket and potted the eightball. In put my quarter on the table and walked back to my seat. Another member of the opponents team, told me "You forgot to mark your pocket." I told him thanks, and went ahead and broke the next rack. When my opponent was on the hill, they declared that the match was over, because I had lost the game that I forgot to mark the 8ball on. I was confused and surprised, but didn't make a fuss. I thought about it as I went home, and questioned to myself why I was allowed to break the next rack if I had lost. The other player that told me about the foul was neither the coach or player. I called the LO and he told me that the other team members were still there, that I should come back and replay the disputed game. I wouldn't have thought anything about it, if they had not allowed me to break. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
05-20-2004, 08:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> I like the idea that if someone clearly disrupts a match and carrys on after a ruling has been made, boot em'<hr /></blockquote>
At carom billiards, there is a rule that the player may ask the referee once to reconsider his opinion. If the player asks again (for the same shot) he is disqualified.
I think league matches should be played with referees. If nothing else, it might get some people to learn the rules.
05-20-2004, 11:22 PM
30 minutes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif are you kidding me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif Time to kick those refs out and hire new ones. decision should have been made right then and there. if no ref is or was present the shot goes to the player...........................mike
05-21-2004, 09:43 AM
Mike - I agree 100% that 30 minutes is ridiculous; taking it behind closed doors with the LO is ridiculous, too. The fault was not the refs, IMO, but the fact the LO got involved and didn't back up the refs IMMEDIATELY. As a ref, I can't call a shot I didn't see; in this case, the question was one of rule interpretation. Shooter says "no foul," her team agrees, no one on other team was watching except the "loose-cannon" captain. Slam dunk call - call goes to shooter (as previously announced), ref says no foul, play on.
The only way the LO should have gotten involved was to back up the ref. "You got your decision, play on or forfeit." Sounds like the team captain felt she had some personal pull with the LO; she needs to be set straight quickly.
Walt in VA
05-25-2004, 02:48 PM
I just bought a Brunswick G.C. yesterday, the guy I bought it from thought it was a G.C.2 but wasn't sure. All it says is Gold Crown, The model # is AR 6100 if thats any help.
05-26-2004, 02:11 AM
Hey Red...you took the words right outta my mouth. I captained a VNEA team for two years. These exact rules that you stated are why I am so biased against the APA. As far as I am concerned, calling fouls is and always should be strictly between the players involved in the said match. This is also advantageous in the fact that it makes the players pay more attention to the game and also gives them reason for learning the rules instead of relying on someone else because they dont want to read the rule book.
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