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Pelican
05-22-2004, 10:36 AM
Just wondering how you make your decision to put up your first player based on:

1. You lose the toss and they defer therefore you don't know who the other team will put up.

2. You win the toss and defer and they put up their strongest player.

2. You win the toss and defer and they put up a mid player.

3. You win the toss and defer and they put up a weak player.

4. Do you always defer if you win the toss?

5. Do you have a system based on the SL's of the opposing team.

6. If you are in playoff's where it is sudden death race to 3 matches do you always play your stongest player first irregardless of who the opponent puts up?

Just trying to get some ideas. Thanks, Pel

Wally_in_Cincy
05-22-2004, 11:37 AM
There's a lot of different theories. You may get a consensus on some points but on others it's just personal preference or local custom.

A lot depends on the strength of the teams. If one team does not have good enough players to reach 23 then they are at a disadvantage.

The scenarios below are assuming both teams will use all 23 points.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr> Just wondering how you make your decision to put up your first player based on:

1. You lose the toss and they defer therefore you don't know who the other team will put up.

<font color="blue">If I had a good 4 I would play him/her. That way if they throw a 3 ,4,or 5 your guy is matched up ok. </font color>

2. You win the toss and defer and they put up their strongest player.

<font color="blue">That would be a stupid move in most instances. If their strongest player is a 5 and you have a good 6 I would throw the 6. If their strongest player is a 6 I would throw a 3. Therefore they have essentially wasted their guy. </font color>

2. You win the toss and defer and they put up a mid player.

<font color="blue"> Knowing the player would help in making the decision. If you don't know his speed then.....If both teams are going to use all 23 points I would probably throw a player of equal skill level. </font color>


3. You win the toss and defer and they put up a weak player.

<font color="blue">Match the skill level </font color>


4. Do you always defer if you win the toss?

<font color="blue">Almost always. There are exceptions. Some teams always play the same order. For instance, Joe always plays first, Betty always plays third, and Bubba always last. In that case you might want to take the first throw in order to disrupt their game plan.

Some folks like to throw first for various reasons. One reason is that means you control who plays last. </font color>


5. Do you have a system based on the SL's of the opposing team.

<font color="blue">If they have a lot of good players I usually pray </font color>


6. If you are in playoff's where it is sudden death race to 3 matches do you always play your stongest player first irregardless of who the opponent puts up?

Just trying to get some ideas. Thanks, Pel <hr /></blockquote>

BLACKHEART
05-22-2004, 11:56 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Wally, I concure with everything you said. There are a lot of reasons to play certain players 1st. For example, some of my players like to go 1st, so that they can drink a lot after. Some of my players like to drink a lot before they play. Some of my players like a few drinks, before they play &amp; then get down to some serious drinking. While others come to pool drunk &amp; really don't have a prefference as to when they play. Oh &amp; then there are those, who won't play a ----------(fill in the blank,woman, black, mexican, tall person, small person...etc.). All of these reasons make the capains job, SO interesting...JER

Malice
05-22-2004, 12:01 PM
On one team I had, a certain player was quite a heavy drinker. I invariably played him first because by the last match he'd be too plastered to be worth a damn.

When it's my put-up, I almost always go for someone in the middle. If the team as a whole is in a slump, I sometimes put me (highest handicap, highest W/L %) up first, both to intimidate the opposing team and to pump up my crew.

In playoffs, I always plan for the match to go the distance. About the only thing I do differently is save players who have more tournament experience for the later matches.

Wally_in_Cincy
05-22-2004, 12:09 PM
Jer,

I'm LMAO. Sounds like your drinking team has a pool problem /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The good thing about being on a drinking team is that real athletes never have an off-season /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
05-22-2004, 12:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Malice:</font><hr>.....In playoffs, I always plan for the match to go the distance. About the only thing I do differently is save players who have more tournament experience for the later matches.
<hr /></blockquote>

That's me too. A lot of people around here don't like to do that. They like to come out firing with both barrels. Trouble with that is, if you miss your target once, you run out of ammo.

Malice
05-22-2004, 12:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Jer,

I'm LMAO. Sounds like your drinking team has a pool problem /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

LOL! Saved for future reference.

Wally_in_Cincy
05-22-2004, 12:36 PM
thanx but I can't claim credit for it

http://www.fivestarbilliards.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/drink-team.jpg

Barbara
05-22-2004, 12:51 PM
I love that slogan!! Allen Paul sure has some good stuff!

Barbara

BLACKHEART
05-22-2004, 01:37 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gifWally, one year in Vegas, I get up to take a wiz,at 4 AM. After taking care of business, I look out my window &amp; 12 floors below is my entire team(minus me), in the hot tub. Next to them,are 2 piles of empty 12 packs. Our 1st match was at 8:30 AM. They all wandered in long enough to bang some balls around &amp; go out to the match. We won the 1st 3 &amp; guess where we went.....TO THE BAR, TO CELABRATE. We got down to the last 8 teams, before being eliminated......AND THE WE CELABRATED IN EARNEST. It's hard to forget that team(our logo on our shirts was "HIGH N HARD"..JER

larrynj1
05-22-2004, 07:36 PM
you people should be ashamed of yourselve. what kind of impression have you all made on the las vegans??

Pelican
05-22-2004, 08:51 PM
Yea Blackhawk, it's folks like y'all that give good decent alcoholics a bad name /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

rukiddingme
05-23-2004, 02:30 AM
It depends...regular season I'll defer most of the time. Playoffs I like to put up first. That 1st point is really key and I like to play a strong player at handicap.
I like to put a 4 or 5 first. If we win that point they kind of panic and will usually counter with their strong player at handicap and I may waste my 2 or 3...it ties things up but I have used my weak player and therefore still have the advantage.
If we lose the first point...PUNT /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
ruk

Pelican
05-23-2004, 05:20 PM
Many thanks to all for the input. We are going into City Cup play for the Vegas trip in two weeks. 'preciate your thoughts, Pel

JDB
05-23-2004, 05:23 PM
I was an APA captain for about 5 years, both 8 ball and 9 ball but my strategy was always the same. I always wanted to put up first so I could control the last match.

Therefore, if I won the toss, I would choose to put up first. If they won the toss, 90% of the time they would defer to me to put up first. So I was almost always happy...lol.

I always liked to start off with a lower tier player (SL1 - 3). Because I never wanted to put the lower skilled player in a pressure position, particularly in the playoffs. Depending on how the first game went would determine my strategy for the remainder of the night.

My basic strategy was to keep the two best players for the last 2 matches unless the other team put up a higher skill level earlier in the match. I liked to match higher skill levels agains my best players. I hated people who would duck us. But it didn't matter much because it just meant they were giving up 2 matches for the night.

Wally_in_Cincy
05-24-2004, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr>...We are going into City Cup play for the Vegas trip in two weeks.... <hr /></blockquote>

I've been to our city tourney 5 years in a row now, 3 of those years with 2 teams and my fiancee also goes every year with a ladies team and at least one open team. All I can say is "Have fun".

This may sound contradictory but you need to be serious but don't take the overall picture too seriously. What I mean is be serious about your play, practice diligently until then so you can get in stroke, but don't get too upset if you don't win the thing.

Just enjoy the ride. You will play better. Whatever you do, don't let your guys beat themselves up over a missed shot. It's the same shots we all miss all the time except they are magnified in this venue.

One freakish 8-ball scratch and a funny spread off the break cost me a match and sent us to the left side. I did not feel bad in the least because I know I played very well. Sometimes the balls just roll funny.

Pelican
05-24-2004, 11:21 AM
Totally agree Wally. Having a good time is what it is about. If you win that makes it even better. I have been to City Cup twice on two different teams. Our present team is very good having won 1st place in the playoffs for two of this current set of three sessions. I am concerned about our captain. He seems to not to handle pressure very well. This is not just my thinking, other team members have said the same thing. In the last City Cup he made a couple of poor judgements (IMO) as far as matching up players. I was just wondering how some of the Captains that had been doing it for some time decided how they put up based on what the other team did.

I really do appreciate everyone's input, Pel

rukiddingme
05-24-2004, 12:49 PM
Let me just say that captaining is not a real easy job. It requires a lot of ego stroking and babysitting.
During the regular season you have to put up with things like the I can only come at a certain time and must play by a certain time players, the I want to play THAT guy players, the I know I just got here at 9:00pm and the rest of the team has been there since 7pm but but I have to play next players, the I just want to play 4 times a session players, the I either act like a cry baby or total jag when I lose players,...you get the picture.
Just before the playoff begins I gather the team and discuss what the overall plan for the matches are and ask them for their input. The team realizes that during the regular season everyone plays but when it comes to the playoffs I'm going to put the best performing players at handicap up.
After each match I confer with the team again. The decisions are not always democratic but I do consider everyones input.
ruk

Pelican
05-24-2004, 01:34 PM
"Let me just say that captaining is not a real easy job. It requires a lot of ego stroking and babysitting."

Having been a captain I fully concur, it can drive ya bonkers /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Ross
05-24-2004, 03:12 PM
A lot of players and captains make certain assumptions that I don't think are necessarily true in APA:

1. It is important to match skill levels.
2. A high ranked player is more likely to beat a low ranked player.

No one has ever given me a good explanation of WHY they believe these to be true. In my experience, in 9-ball I can put a 7 (or any other level) against a 2,3,4,5,6,7, 8, or 9 and he/she is equally likely to win. The APA handicapping does a good job of equalizing these opponents. If the 7 is strong for his rating (or in the case of a sandbagger really should be an 8 or 9) then he is likely to win no matter the level of opponent. If the 7 is weak for the rating, he is likely to lose no matter who the opponent is.

IMO, since the handicapping puts everyone on a relatively level playing field the main reasons for manipulating matchups are psychological ones. For example, if I have a player who, for whatever reason, mentally "owns" a particular opponent, then I may try to match them up. Or I might put a mentally tough person up as closer, regardless of whether that person is a 2 or a 9. Or, as others have mentioned, some players just play better earlier or later in the evening because of drinking patterns, just getting off work, etc. So I might take that into account.

In 8 ball we used to play a really tough 7 (top ranking) who was a strong favorite to beat any other 7 in the league. All the other teams would save their stronget player for him, and he would really concentrate and usually win. But he got rattled when we would play 2's against him. I think it was all in his head, but it worked more often than not.

Also, something that really drives me crazy: everyone insisting on putting 2's against other 2's. Those are the worst matches of all (especially at 9-ball, but at 8 ball as well). When 2's miss they often leave long, hard shots (because they don't use pocket speed and don't control the cue ball). So these matches consist of difficult shot, miss, difficult shot, miss, .... and usually end up lasting over an hour of frustrating pool. Much better is to put your 2 against a higher ranked opponent. The 2 still has a 50/50 chance of winning and the match is usually quicker and more enjoyable for spectators and players alike.

And of course there is the radical strategy of just evenly rotating who plays early and late so no one goes home feeling screwed. High team morale is probably as important to winning as any magic matching strategy when playing in a handicapped league. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
05-25-2004, 06:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rukiddingme:</font><hr>
.....The team realizes that during the regular season everyone plays but when it comes to the playoffs I'm going to put the best performing players at handicap up......<hr /></blockquote>

The problem with that is there are cetain players who play like gods in the regular season and choke come city tourney time. And there are others who step up at crunch time.

I think you really need to give everyone a chance to see what they can do.

We had a guy who started the season as a 4, got moved up to a 5 and could barely compete against other 5's. In the city tourney he played his first match at a 7 level and almost got moved to a 6. He just needed some incentive to perform under pressure.

Then for 3 of the last 4 years our best players (5, 5, 6) have essentially choked. Go figure.

Pelican
05-25-2004, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>

The problem with that is there are cetain players who play like gods in the regular season and choke come city tourney time. And there are others who step up at crunch time.
<hr /></blockquote>

Excellent point Wally. Not bragging but pressure doesn't seem to affect me. I shoot every game the best I can and want to win but if I don't the world is not going to end. Some folks act like their life depends winning. I guess if you wager more than you have - it might /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif