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SpiderMan
05-27-2004, 11:32 AM
I was reading some old posts over on RSB, and came across some descriptions by William Lee on his break ferrule. In one, he mentions that the ferrule is actually cushioned from the shaft by a layer of rubber. He posted a link to some detailed description, but the link wouldn't work for me.

Anyone here, maybe a cuemaker, analyzed the design and want to comment on this rubber-isolation thing? My own gut feel would have been that a solid mount would be less lossy (in terms of energy transfer), so I'm curious. I believe William referred to it as a "trampoline effect".

SpiderMan

Frank_Glenn
05-27-2004, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I was reading some old posts over on RSB, and came across some descriptions by William Lee on his break ferrule. In one, he mentions that the ferrule is actually cushioned from the shaft by a layer of rubber. He posted a link to some detailed description, but the link wouldn't work for me.

Anyone here, maybe a cuemaker, analyzed the design and want to comment on this rubber-isolation thing? My own gut feel would have been that a solid mount would be less lossy (in terms of energy transfer), so I'm curious. I believe William referred to it as a "trampoline effect".

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

I would be wary. YMMV He seems to like to agrue and not really have any ammunition for his argument. I have him in the bozo filter under 3 or 4 different names. A lot like FL if you get my drift.

Cueless Joey
05-27-2004, 12:32 PM
Heck, make your own. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
http://store.yahoo.com/ecomplastics/canbasmicnem.html

Popcorn
05-27-2004, 12:33 PM
Makes no sense. If you create a way for the ferrule to move, the whole ferrule installation would eventually break down. It is meant to be a permanent installation. Maybe it just screws on and off and is not glued in place.

Chris Cass
05-27-2004, 02:52 PM
Hi Popcorn,

Why would he suggest rubber? Why would anyone want a rebound effect? I think I tend to lean towards your accessment.

Regards,

C.C.

Alfie
05-27-2004, 02:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I was reading some old posts over on RSB, and came across some descriptions by William Lee on his break ferrule. <hr /></blockquote> Did any of the science people comment on it? What was said?

Popcorn
05-27-2004, 03:37 PM
Actually you would not get a rebound effect. Just as a ball will not bounce on a carpet, the rubber would absorb some of the energy and not return it to the cue ball.

Chris Cass
05-28-2004, 07:45 AM
Ah Ha, Got that 11 railer now! HAHAHAHAHA Rubber ferrule + Rubber balls = Rubber room. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks,

C.C.~~can't imagine this. oh well.

RedHell
05-28-2004, 02:19 PM
Spiderman,

I remember William Lee's ferrule desing. His point is basically based on the trampoline effect. The flaw in this design is that a trampoline transfer the gravity force to make someone bounce, and the reason you get higher after each jump is that you use you legs (muscles) to add more force each time.

Just look at racquet sports, you will have a better serve in tennis or badminton with tighter strings. The energy used to stretch the strings will never equal the one returned to the ball.

Golf drivers reflect that also, they try to make them with the hardest material they can find !!!

Jimmy B
05-28-2004, 03:25 PM
He's a real moron, let's try to keep him away from this place, another FL is an understatement, he makes FL seem normal and sane.

JB

qstroker2004
05-28-2004, 04:19 PM
Spiderman - I'm new here and I'm not trying to be a wiseass...I have a real question. I notice on your pic that your leg is up on the table. I don't understand why you need to do this. This shot appears to be easily reachable across table without getting up on the slate. Is there a reason not apparent from the photo why you would do this, or are you just scoring style points with the ladies? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

regards,
dwhite

Fred Agnir
05-28-2004, 04:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Anyone here, maybe a cuemaker, analyzed the design and want to comment on this rubber-isolation thing? My own gut feel would have been that a solid mount would be less lossy (in terms of energy transfer), so I'm curious. I believe William referred to it as a "trampoline effect".

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>I'm not a cuemaker, but I did break with one of these shafts. No discernable difference.

And I see that William Lee is indeed a registered user here.

Fred

SPetty
05-28-2004, 09:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qstroker2004:</font><hr> I notice on your pic that your leg is up on the table. I don't understand why you need to do this. This shot appears to be easily reachable across table without getting up on the slate.<hr /></blockquote>Howdy qstroker2004,

I'm not Spiderman, but I took that picture, so maybe I can help. You may not be seeing the photo correctly - this pic is taken along the long side of the table - the cue ball is within one diamond from this end of the table. In order to get that cueing angle on the ball, normal people would have to use the bridge to reach the entire length of the table. (Well, that's not to say that Spiderman is particularly abnormal /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif )

The most interesting thing to note, and the reason I took the pic, is that Spiderman's left foot is on the floor, and there's gotta be at least eight inches between the table and, well, him.

Here's the original full-sized pic. Maybe you can see the angle better here:

http://members.aol.com/iheart8ball/pics/spidey.jpg

Hope that helps.

Jimmy B
05-29-2004, 02:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>
I'm not Spiderman, but I took that picture, so maybe I can help. <hr /></blockquote>


If you really wanted to help maybe you could have talked him out of his choice of shirt.

JB

Barbara
05-29-2004, 07:52 AM
I love that picture!!!!!

Barbara

Wally_in_Cincy
05-29-2004, 09:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>
I'm not Spiderman, but I took that picture, so maybe I can help. <hr /></blockquote>


If you really wanted to help maybe you could have talked him out of his choice of shirt.

JB
<hr /></blockquote>

Jimmy B,

That pales in comparison to Larry Nevel's favorite ugly shirt....

Larry Nevel's ugly shirt (http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/2003vikingfinale/guys%20with%20leah.jpg)

qstroker2004
05-29-2004, 01:32 PM
<ul type="square">
*****
I'm not Spiderman, but I took that picture, so maybe I can help. You may not be seeing the photo correctly - this pic is taken along the long side of the table - the cue ball is within one diamond from this end of the table. In order to get that cueing angle on the ball, normal people would have to use the bridge to reach the entire length of the table.
*****
[/list]
I see. I can see the side pocket now that you mention it. This is a tiny bar box, so it didn't occur to me that it could the the length of the table!

thanks,
dwhite

qstroker2004
05-30-2004, 11:39 PM
RedHell said:
****
Just look at racquet sports, you will have a better serve in tennis or badminton with tighter strings. The energy used to stretch the strings will never equal the one returned to the ball.
****

A tennis racquet with loose strings will provide a greater velocity serve than one with tight strings will, all else equal of course. Tight strings provide more control, and loose strings provide more "power." In contrast, stiff racquets provide more power, while flexible racquets provide less. These two factors don't seem to jive. Why would a stiff racquet not have the same effect as tight strings? The answer is that a flexible racquet bends as the ball hits the strings, and before it can flex back, the ball leaves the strings. Therefore a flexible racquet absorbs some of the ball energy. With a stiff racquet, more energy stays with the ball. In the case of strings, the loose "trampoliny" strings DO have time to return energy back to the ball. If you drop a bowling ball on the ground (like tight strings), it will not bounce back much. All that potential and kinetic energy turns to heat and sound. If you drop it on a trampoline, it will bounce back up part way because the trampoline (like loose strings) has returned the stored energy in the trampoline back to the ball.

As far as the rubber ferrule goes, I think you have to determine whether the ball is gone before the rubber has a chance (or even the elasticity) to return energy back to the cue ball. If not, it could actually remove energy from the shot, IMO. Most likely it has no discernable affect.

dwhite

RedHell
05-31-2004, 07:12 AM
Interresting, what you are saying is exactly the opposite of what all my badminton coaches have told me.

I was always instructed that the softer strings will be more forgiving while the tight strings provides more power.

The bowling ball example is irrelevant as it fights gravity. A better example in our case would be hitting a bowling ball with a bat made of wood or plastic..

Isn't it why aluminium bats aren't allowed in baseball ? Because they are harder than wood and hit the ball longer...

RedHell
05-31-2004, 07:20 AM
Well,

I did some more research and must admit that I stand corrected. Most articles and opinions on the web approved what you expressed.

One question remain, if softer contact point allow for more power, why do we all go crazy on phenolic tip and harder tips...

I'm sure that my phenolic tip break cue offers more power than my standard medium tip...

qstroker2004
05-31-2004, 08:02 AM
***
I was always instructed that the softer strings will be more forgiving while the tight strings provides more power.
***

You lose a little direction along with getting more power when your strings are loose. So tight strings might give you the confidence to swing harder since you have better control.

***
The bowling ball example is irrelevant as it fights gravity. A better example in our case would be hitting a bowling ball with a bat made of wood or plastic..
***

I doesn't really matter. It is an analogy that illustrates the point. Whether it is gravity or your opponent that is causing the movement of the ball, it doesn't change what is happening.

***
Isn't it why aluminium bats aren't allowed in baseball ? Because they are harder than wood and hit the ball longer...
***

I have a feeling it is the same thing as the tennis racquet! I'm guessing, but I'd bet the wooden bat flexes as the ball contacts it, and then the ball leaves the bat before it can flex back. The aluminum bat probably doesn't flex as much. Also there might be more of a trampoline effect at the contact point where the aluminum DOES return energy to the ball before it leaves. This would be exactly the case in the wooden vs. stiff tennis racquet.

dwhite

qstroker2004
05-31-2004, 08:08 AM
***
One question remain, if softer contact point allow for more power, why do we all go crazy on phenolic tip and harder tips...
***

Probably because with a soft tip, the cue ball is gone before any energy can come back to the cue ball. It's probably the exact same thing.

dwhite