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View Full Version : To all attending the BCA amatuer event



05-03-2002, 10:50 AM
Here's a tidbit for you, though you should know I'm not affiliated with anyone on the inside of this issue, just repeating something a friend of a friend told me.

When you get to Vegas you're going to find about 150 Valley Cougar tables. The balls will be the typical balls, with a special cue ball to make it come out the head string end of the table. They'll play like crap of course, inconsistent speed, mostly out of level, funny rails, bad lighting. Everything they were last year.

What you need to know is that you all could have been playing on Diamond Bar Tables instead, with the Diamond lights, Super Aramith balls, new cloth, and the regular cue ball. All of the tables would be level too, as those who played in Red Wing can probably attest to.

The reason for the former and not the latter, Gary Benson, you'll see him there, he looks like Jack Nicholson. He owns all those valley tables and pulled some kind of move to hold on to the BCA tournament when Diamond entered their bid. I don't know the details, maybe someone else does and will post here. I do know that the APA tournament this summer will have the Diamonds, and maybe you should ask yourself why they get to play on good tables and you don't. Anyways, they'll probably ask you to give Benson a round of applause at the banquet and I suggest you treat him to a hearty chorus of boos. I also suggest that you let any BCA bigwigs know how you feel about the tables at any chance you get. That is if you're like me, and like to play on good equipment, and presupposing that the valleys are lousy, which they have been every time I've been there.

Again, I only present this because if you're paying your money you deserve to have the best equipment you can get. I won't be in Vegas to see for myself, and I hope that the tables play well for those of you that are. I kind of doubt it though.

05-03-2002, 01:42 PM
There's a banquet at the Vegas event? Are you sure you're not confusing it with the Trade Show? What you heard may be true, but unless Diamond steps forward and issues a formal complaint, no one can really say anything other than (as you said) express how they feel about the equipment. If there was some bid manipulation going on there, the BCA could stand to lose their not-for-profit status. I'm wondering about that because they'd have too much to lose by allowing something like that to occur.

There IS something they can do legally, though which I'm wondering about, and that's charge for comped rooms. There are a certain number of rooms offered to players for the price of $350 for the week. I'm not complaining about that part because that's a great price. However, the curious part is that we don't pay the Riviera the $350. We pay the promoter of the event. When I checked into the hotel last year, I was told by the clerk my room was "comped." On all other occasions, we never pay the promoter. We pay the hotel directly when we arrive. Even at the Valley Forge event, Dawn took our names and made the reservations for us, but we paid the hotel directly when we arrived.

The other curious thing about it all is that if you weren't able to get in on that "special price," (supposedly after the block was sold out) you could still get a reservation, but you have to pay the Riviera's rate of $69/night and pay them directly when you arrive.

So my question is: Does the promoter turn the $350 we paid over to the BCA, or the Riviera? Or... does the promoter get to keep the money...or does the promoter turn it over to the BCA and does the BCA keep it? Are these really comped rooms as I was told by the Riviera?

Fran (curious enough to get to the bottom of it.)

Barbara
05-03-2002, 02:51 PM
Fran,

I heard that the BCA gets money back on those rooms.

This year the BCA is "comping" rooms to refs that have agreed to work the whole tournament. What a joke!

Barbara~~~heard it from the horse's mouth, too...

Alfie
05-03-2002, 03:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: dinovirus:</font><hr> Here's a tidbit for you, though you should know I'm not affiliated with anyone on the inside of this issue, just repeating something a friend of a friend told me. <hr></blockquote>

Quit spreading potentially damaging rumors. After all, they could be false.

Labeling it as rumor doesn't make it okay.

IMO

05-03-2002, 03:39 PM
Yeah, that's what concerns me. I'm suspecting that the BCA gets a huge block of free rooms as part of their agreement with the Riviera. That would make sense since their event sells out the entire hotel for a week...even to the point where the Riviera saw fit to make special BCA "gambling chips."

I could be wrong but I think most of the pros were able to get that $350/wk rate. That's 128 players. Even at 100 rooms, they would be earning $35,000 off the players. They could have an agreement with the promoters to split it with them or take a percentage. Depends on their contract with them.

And there's more, too, like you said. There's the refs rooms and rooms for themselves and sponsors. We're talking about a lot of comped rooms here.

Fran

05-03-2002, 05:32 PM
Okay Alfie, from now on I'll leave everyone uninformed and ignorant, just the way you like it.

Maybe when you get there y'all can ask the BCA or Gary Benson what the story is with the tables, or even ask the folks at Diamond, if they're there, and draw your own conclusions.

Oh and it's the act that's damaging, not people talking about it.

05-03-2002, 05:59 PM
Funny: I played in the BCA event last year. There were 260 great Valley Cougar Bar boxes. They played great. Looked excellent under the beautiful Valley Lights and were just what I expected when I signed up for a Bar Table Tournament. No surprises, just great action. What Tournament were you at?????Sounds like you might have gone home early....randyg

cheesemouse
05-03-2002, 06:23 PM
randygt,
Spoke like a man who owns stock in Valley and who also hasn't played on the Diamond (real pool) tables. Hell, I may as well add that I strongly suspect you can't tell the difference between a nice shiney object and a pile of cow manure. If you haven't figured out that the Valley Bar Table is junk right off the assembly line then I can't help your unknownagable gludius maximus out. sorry my fingers wouldn't stop on that one.

rackmup
05-03-2002, 06:25 PM
...Add this to the mix:

I lived in Vegas for five years and NEVER paid more than $39. per night for relatives visiting from out-of-town.

The Riv is one of the older, less popular hotels on the strip. They practically GIVE rooms away to get the gamblers into the casino.

I smell a dead fish.

Regards,

Ken (doesn't miss Vegas, his ex-girlfriend or all of the tourists but really craves the Seafood Buffet at the Rio from time-to-time)

Sid_Vicious
05-03-2002, 06:29 PM
Randy...I've only gone once(last year) and didn't sample that many tables, but I heard almost every year before that the consistency among the tables was bad. Stories about speed of cloth from table to table being REALLY tricky was a common comment so I can't really feel that this poster has much to dodge as far as feedback on the positive side.

Anyway I do wonder just what keeps Diamond out of the arena, seems to me that a change might be welcome. Maybe you can shed light since you are on the "inside" of BCA..sid~~~shot like sh&amp;t last year so table sampling wasn't my deal

rackmup
05-03-2002, 06:31 PM
Cheesemouse,

You are my pal and all but I would say that Randy G DOES in fact, know his stuff. See below.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>
Our staff represents some of the best instructors in the world. Our Master Instructors, Randy Goettlicher, Leslie Rogers, and Jerry Powers comprise more than 1/4 of all the BCA Certified Master Instructors in the World.<hr></blockquote>

Randy runs the PoolSchool in Dallas.
www.poolschool.com (http://www.poolschool.com)

Careful there Mr. Mouse! That cheese might be a trap!

Regards,

Ken (knows the feeling of a foot in his mouth)

Ken
05-03-2002, 06:45 PM
I believe that Diamond has issued a complaint in the form of a legal action contesting the decision to keep Valley tables at the BCA. I believe I was informed of that fact in February and that Diamond expects to be doing The BCA. Of course, court cases can take years so who knows when this might happen.

I can't guarantee the precision of my memory of what was a lengthy conversation but I do believe that my recollection is correct.
Ken in CT

cheesemouse
05-03-2002, 06:51 PM
Rackmup,
Us mice can easily put our feet in our mouths, that is not the only thing we can lick but the fact remains if one had his choice as a gift between a Valley and Diamond even Randy is going to take the Diamond home with him, if he didn't then my comment about cow manure has merit...I retract any disrespectful part of my previous post.

~~~Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot.~~~

Ken, thanks for trying to look out for me though /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Alfie
05-03-2002, 07:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: dinovirus:</font><hr> Okay Alfie, from now on I'll leave everyone uninformed and ignorant, just the way you like it.

Maybe when you get there y'all can ask the BCA or Gary Benson what the story is with the tables, or even ask the folks at Diamond, if they're there, and draw your own conclusions.

Oh and it's the act that's damaging, not people talking about it. <hr></blockquote>

Dinovirus, tell me which of the following you disagree with and why.

Spreading a potentially damaging rumor is a bad thing to do.

A rumor, by definition, can be false.

If you spread a false rumor that results in damages, you share in the guilt even though you labeled it as rumor at the time.

cuechick
05-03-2002, 07:20 PM
True or not, the fact is my opponent and I play on the same table with the same advantages and disadvantages. I found the tables fine last year aside from an occasional wacked out cue ball. Sometimes the magnets are messed up, so check them out before your match.
Fran,
It does sound like someones profitting big, I even have to pay for a guest pass, that my friend is getting for me. It's not much though and I do not mind adding my support...
Who is this 'promoter"? isn't that the BCA?

Chris Cass
05-03-2002, 07:32 PM
Hi Fran,

Let's say I wanted to throw a tournament on at the casino. I go to the casino with a deal of booking the hotel solid or atleast one wing, say 200 rooms. The rooms go for $69.00 normally. I get them to discount them to the players for $59. a night. If I get $20. a room per night for the event and the players stay for the entire 3 day's. That's $12,000. for the weekend. I also get comp'd rooms for my staff to put up and tear down tables and also the ref's.

The casino provides the room and I'd have someone come in and run the event, with staff and tables. They get the table fee's. I'd also get fee's from the venders too. I could easily add some money to the event and still make out. Now if I owned the tables I'd make a killing. I could even give the tournament entry fee's for a couple of players and give them a comp'd room and split their take as well.

Not saying I sure about all the details but, I know about the room thing and the players steak horse. That's a for sure.

Regards,

C.C.

Rip
05-03-2002, 07:51 PM
I dropped by the Riviera today and they are playing on Diamond Smart Table bar boxes with Simonis cloth and Aramith balls with the red circle cue ball. The better players seem very pleased with the equipment while the bangers appear to be confused by the level tables with Simonis. Coincidentally, I spoke with one of the principals involved in the Smart Table contract with the APA and he confirmed a 5 year contract with the APA. The situation with the BCA is unfortunate but I'll not get involved with details. Everything I heard from the players was positive about the equipment. They aren't using Diamond lights except for one or two exhibition tables. I hit a few balls on the Diamond bar box and was pleasantly surprised. To each his own...some will love em', some won't. Regards, Rip

05-03-2002, 08:26 PM
Yes, comped rooms are pretty much a given at these things. The big question is how many? I think we're talking about a lot here. If what you're guessing is true, that we're getting a special discounted rate by the Riviera, then why aren't we paying the Riviera directly as we do with every other hotel when we get a special group rate...and why was I told that my room was a comped room last year?

Here's another possible scenario: In exchange for having their name mentioned over and over again on national television (ESPN), the Riviera agrees to give the BCA x number of comped rooms over and above their normal comp policy. Remember, the BCA owns the televised matches for that event.

Unless I hear otherwise, it's starting to look more and more like the pro players are paying $850 entry fees rather than $500. I hope I'm wrong about that.

Fran

05-03-2002, 08:28 PM
And...could they even be making money off their referees???

05-03-2002, 08:36 PM
Cuechick, the promoters of the pro event are a company owned by Steve Tipton and Peg Ledman. We pay them our entry fees and the hotel fees directly.

Fran

05-03-2002, 09:43 PM
Fran, just out of curiosity... don't you guys normally have to pay for your rooms when playing in a pro tournament?

- Steve

05-04-2002, 02:13 AM
Sure we do, Steve. I think you know that. We pay hotel fees because we have no choice. But let's say it's true that the rooms we're paying for in Vegas are comped. Well, I'm thinking that would it be too much to ask for the BCA to cut into their hefty profits and give the pros a break? Every little bit helps when 90% of the players are faced with going home with less than they came with. We loyally show up, year after year, event after event, and it's disheartening to learn that we may finally have an opportunity to cut some of our expenses, yet we're denied that opportunity. Oh, I'm sure the rationale is that we always pay for the hotel anyway. But hell...are we ever going to get a break? At what point do we get to stop putting money in everyone else's pockets but our own?

Fran

rackmup
05-04-2002, 06:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Ken, thanks for trying to look out for me though<hr></blockquote>

As the famous saying goes, and I quote:

"I will defend until the bitter end, your right to speak your mind unless you speak them aloud somewhere out of my presence that I learn of later at which time I will defend those as well but if you speak bitterly aloud about something you previously kept quietly to yourself then I will defend your right to think and say it as long as I know you said it so I know to defend it but if I didn't hear it, remind me of it and again, I will defend your right to say it if I understand it or you can explain it to me so I can defend your right to say it."

Regards,

Ken (cannot remember the person's name that I quoted. I met him one night at a bar and he was pretty drunk BUT he did tell me he was famous)

05-04-2002, 07:18 AM
Hi Sid, Have to like a man who asks before he spouts. (randyg likes Sid anyway) Cheesemouse, are you listening: The BCA asks for bids from any BCA Member Organization that could be involved. Gary Benson came in with the best bid. The BCA signed a contract for a few years with Mr. Benson. Sound business. Greg Sullivan from Diamond had the same chance. Most everything the BCA does gets bid out to it's members.

NEXT:

I played on the SMART Table in Red Wing Mn. Love the table...but. In the real world we have to be true to our clints. The high majority of the BCA 8-Ball players headed to Las Vegas have never played, heard, seen or know about the Smart Table. Hell, some bar-table players don't even know that another cueball (red circle) exists. They come to Las Vegas to compete on the same type tables they play on all year long. That's fair to the most of them!

IMO: When Diamond has their tables in every bar in the USA, then we should consider a change. I have many opinions about the SMART Table, too many to continue in this post.

CHEESEMOUSE: I never take offense to anything said on this board. Most of the time I just chuckle and grin when posters don't know what their talking about. There is a big difference between "nice" and "normal".....Have to go (Pool School this weekend)....randyg

cheesemouse
05-04-2002, 08:39 AM
Well Randy, you know what they say,"If passion drives you, let reason hold the reins." In this case 'reason' was the fact that The Valley people have been torchuring me with their quarter devouring table for 20 years. Unlike most companys who choose to improve their product Valley has cheapened and lowered the playablility of their table. Along comes the Diamond Smart Table and shabang finally a bar sized table that gives you a game; the passion begins to grow.
I have respect for anyone who can make a living off the pool world. You instruct, some play and some produce junk for their $$$$$$$

P. S. You might consider registering so you won't be mistaken again for a quick dipping dolt.

05-04-2002, 08:56 AM
From what I remember from last year, they didn't pay their Refs anything. So of them got a "comped" room.

Yeah, like I'm paying $600 to fly out there and stay for 9 days and I'm going to work for free for them.

I don't think so.

Barbara

Wally_in_Cincy
05-04-2002, 12:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: dinovirus:</font><hr> Okay Alfie, from now on I'll leave everyone uninformed and ignorant, just the way you like it.

Maybe when you get there y'all can ask the BCA or Gary Benson what the story is with the tables, or even ask the folks at Diamond, if they're there, and draw your own conclusions.

Oh and it's the act that's damaging, not people talking about it. <hr></blockquote>


It would be nice if Greg from Diamond would weigh in on this

05-04-2002, 05:49 PM
Nice, but not realistic, especially if he has partaken in pool's newest favorite pastime (filing lawsuits). Whatever he has to say will be viewed as hyperbole by most, a counter suit by a few, and the truth by us (well, some of us anyway. Not me mind you, because I don't play bar pool, and therefore do not care. Not that bar pool isn't nice, it's just not for me.)

05-04-2002, 11:06 PM
Barbara, I think there are 3 tournaments per year where the BCA should pay their refs. The Las Vegas event, the Junior Nationals and the 14.1 U.S. Open.

The last time they held the 14.1 U.S. Open in NYC, (3 years ago?) Barry Dubow had to scramble to get local players to referee. He had Arthur from Corner Billiards do a one-day crash course training session with them because the BCA refused to send (and pay for) referees for their own event. Barry couldn't afford to put the refs up in a hotel, which is why he had to hire local people, but he at least paid them to work the tournament. He felt it was ridiculous to ask people do do such hard work and work so many hours for nothing.

Fran

05-04-2002, 11:18 PM
Oh, and I forgot to mention...at the 14.1 US Open, Barry gave the comped rooms he got from the hotel to the players. Unfortunately, he and Blatt Billiards wound up in the red for the event, but he held firm all the way through that he refused to make his income off the players. I applaud him for holding the line on that. He just didn't get the industry support he was hoping for.

Fran

Chris Cass
05-05-2002, 02:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: randygt:</font><hr>
NEXT:

In the real world we have to be true to our clints. The high majority of the BCA 8-Ball players headed to Las Vegas have never played, heard, seen or know about the Smart Table. Hell, some bar-table players don't even know that another cueball (red circle) exists. They come to Las Vegas to compete on the same type tables they play on all year long. That's fair to the most of them! <hr></blockquote>

Hi RandyG,

If this is the case then, why re-cloth them? In the real world they're beat and often filthy with worn cloth and holes.

Regards,

C.C.

05-05-2002, 06:39 AM
Hi Chris: I watched you play (great I might add) in Mn. The SMART Table is certainly very nice.

The Bar Tables in Dallas are probably not any different than other parts on the USA. But, when we arrive in Las Vegas it's great to see clean tables and new cloth and cue-balls that we train with all year.

Are you in the Las Vegas BCA Tournament? If so, I will again come watch you play, I like your game......randyg

cuechick
05-05-2002, 08:09 AM
Can someone explain what is this SMART table? What is different, better.... and the cue ball? Is is designed with out a magnet, what's the big deal.
Curious Cuechick /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

heater451
05-05-2002, 08:24 AM
This is all it says at the website:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Patented optical density sensor built into the ball return system. Allows the player to use super Aramith Pro BallsŪ with the red circle, red triangle, or blue circle cue ball. No longer do the amateurs have to play with an oversized or magnetic cue ball.<hr></blockquote>

http://www.diamondbilliard.com/smart_table.html


I'm sure you could private message "Greg" directly, if he accepts PM's here on this site:

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showprofile.php?Cat=&amp;User=Greg%2FDiamond&amp;page=6&amp;wh at=showmembers

(I don't know him personally, so I couldn't tell you for sure.)

cheesemouse
05-05-2002, 08:51 AM
cue chick,
I think there have been detailed posts on the Smart table in the past but I could'nt find it in the archives, of course, I could have done the search wrong. Anyway, you are on the right path in your question. They are better~~like light years. You mention before that you don't play on bar tables and you don't care about the conditions but most players now days play their pool on bar tables unfortunately. The best discription I've heard of the Smart table is: it is has all the playablity features of the high quality 4 1/2x9 like thick slate, pocket shelves, 860 cloth, high quality rails and a 'real' cueball. All I can say is if the Smart bar table was sitting next to any other bar table it would get all the play. The main problem is most bar owners could careless so it is up to the players to nag on owners and demand that the Smart table replace the present junk tables. I have played on the Smart table and they are like a drink of water to a man dying of thirst.

Barbara
05-05-2002, 08:53 AM
Well he's certainly a credit for doing what he did.

I could go on about this business with the BCA expecting Refs to pay for their way out there, their meals and lodging, using up their own vacation time from work, and not getting properly compensated for it, but I won't because I just don't agree with it at all.

Plus! I had to pay them to become a referee, and I pay and extra $10 per year to maintain my status as a referee.

So Arthur was a referee?? Hahahahaha!! Did he wear a Tux, too?? Oh God, I'm LMAO!!! I would've paid to have seen that!!!

Barbara~~~sees Arthur as "The Riddler", not a ref...

Ken
05-05-2002, 09:03 AM
The "smart" table is a Diamond table that has the optical density detection system installed. The cue ball is returned at the head of the table like a regular bar table. The sensor permits the use of any cueball and does not require a different weight, size or magnetic or metal core.

The main benefit of the system is that the mechanism allows people to pay at the table with either coins or credit cards. The payment method can be by time or by the game. This eliminates the need to have someone to give out balls or collect money and would permit one person to tend bar and operate a full sized poolroom with relative ease. Customers could go play a couple games and go back to the bar without going through the hassle of getting put on time whenever they felt like playing a game. I would require a driver's license to insure that nobody steals the balls, however.

Both the 7 and 9 foot tables can be gotten with the sensor. The point in question is whether bar table competitions should be on the Diamond tables. That has nothing to do with the ball return mechanism it is about the design of the tables. Diamond has decided to make the bar tables play just like the 9 foot tables as far as cushion material, pocket cut, slate thickness, cloth and whatever else is concerned. People who play on 9 footers seem to like the idea. People who play on the Valley bar tables may prefer to play on what they are used to. Some bar table tournaments have used the Diamonds and I believe they were well accepted but the tables are not widely available in bars yet.

Diamond hopes that the bar players will become familiar with their tables and try to get them into their bars. The intent is to get bar players playing on equipment that is similar to what the pros play on and perhaps get more people interested in supporting the pro game.
Ken in CT

Chris Cass
05-05-2002, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: randygt:</font><hr> Hi Chris: I watched you play (great I might add) in Mn. The SMART Table is certainly very nice.

The Bar Tables in Dallas are probably not any different than other parts on the USA. But, when we arrive in Las Vegas it's great to see clean tables and new cloth and cue-balls that we train with all year.

Are you in the Las Vegas BCA Tournament? If so, I will again come watch you play, I like your game......randyg <hr></blockquote>

Hi Randy,

What do you say to a guy that gives you such a nice compliment? All, I can think of is your my hero..LOL Yes, I'll be in Vegas and don't care if I play on gravel. Can't wait to meet you. Sure wish we could of met in MN. Maybe this time we'll have enough time to shake hands.

I really enjoyed the Diamond Smart Table but, the bids the really deal. As long as it's fair I'm in. Diamond would do a lot better if the got their prices down to competitive. I agree 100% with you that Valley is the industry standard and has been for yrs. I also think it would be a nice change, to go with the Diamond. Either way, I just hope the tables play straight.

Regards,

C.C.

05-05-2002, 01:06 PM
Hey, Arthur looked mighty handsome in that tux! Ha! And he's certainly qualified to do the job. After all, he does run all the leagues at Corner, especially the infamous 14.1 league. It was fun seeing him out there on the floor.

Fran

Barbara
05-05-2002, 03:09 PM
I have no doubt that Arthur looked great in that Tux! I really didn't meet him as a newly minted VF staffer, but I sure was impressed with his running our little NEWT event at Corner and I have the most profound respect for him and Connie's hubby. Tell him I said hi for me. I'm still impressed with getting our stuff done so early both nights at Corner.


Now if I could just get over that "stoned look" he has all the time... LMAO!!!!

Barbara~~~knows that it's just a look and not for real...

cuechick
05-05-2002, 05:31 PM
Thanks Cheese for the info, though I am not the one who doesn't play on bar tables. 4 years in the APA and my 3rd year at the BCA, I'm no bar table snob! I'll play on anything, even 'gravel' as Chris Cass posted! (LOVED THAT /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif)

Greg/Diamond
05-05-2002, 10:28 PM
Randyg, ....... I don't want to get into details on bids and contracts at this time, but I'd like to say a few things........ I won the open bid on the first Pro Tournament a couple years ago. It was a big step at the time for my company, for the total cost was around $40,000. I had just finished development of the Smart Table and asked 3 times to be involved in the bidding for the next BCA Amateur event..... I won't say names at this time, but let me say where there were no contract, there became a multi year contract... Off the top of my head I think the contract was for 6 or 7 years. I was definitely upset!.... The Pro event is open for bid every year and up popped a multi year contract for the Amateur event, only happening after I asked to place a bid!...... I don't hold any bad feelings against Gary Benson or Valley, for it was a good business decision on their part, but I do hold contempt for the person or persons who signed the contract without giving me a chance.... After all, I'm a member of their organization. Then making it look worse, the person who signed the contract resigned a few days later. The situation smells to me!.... I have recourse, but after much biting on my lip and talking to the new leaders in the BCA I have directed my focus to the APA. I am now getting an opportunity to display the Smart Table. I now have the chance to show something I feel strongly about. "That Pool was meant to be played with a REAL cue ball." ........ I have talked with Gary and will talk to him again at the upcoming BCA event. I'll have a booth and would like very much to answer questions. Gary even gave me the phone number of the people to talk to at Valley..... Chad "VP Diamond" and I flew to Valley a couple days before the just completed APA event and showed them our table.... I realize there are way too many tables that need replaced, for me to achieve my goals by myself. We hope to work with Valley and Gary for the betterment of all pool....... If Diamond was only interested in money it would be very easy to sell conversion kits that allow a regular cue ball to be used on all old bar tables and this could make us alot of money.... However, I feel those old tables need to be replaced by ones with different specifications, such as pocket opening, angles and slate depth. Actually set specs for Amateur Pool, as we are doing in Pro Pool......... I really feel what I'm trying to accomplish is way over due and will happen whether I do it or not... I'ts meant to be.. How fast this change will happen depends on many things. Change is hard, but this change is necessary for Pool to become a successful Sport. IMO we need an amateur basis playing real pool to support Pro Pool, after all you have to be an amateur before becoming a Pro!........... Greg/Diamond

Greg/Diamond
05-05-2002, 10:50 PM
Randygt......I'd very much like the opportunity to hear you're opinions on the Smart Table. That's the way I improve. My home number is 812-945-2891. Email Greg1849@AOL.com...Or look me up at the trade shows or tournaments. thanks Greg/Diamond

Chris Cass
05-05-2002, 11:13 PM
Hi Lorri,

Don't get me wrong but there's a ton of money in bar pool. The Diamond plays like a 9 ft. I realize the advantage's of the Smart table but it's the rails and the deep shelf that's so unique.

Your missing out on an open womens field with only a small attendance. You could make some good money and still play the 9ft. tourneys.

JAT,

C.C.

05-05-2002, 11:41 PM
you said:

Dinovirus, tell me which of the following you disagree with and why.

Spreading a potentially damaging rumor is a bad thing to do.

A rumor, by definition, can be false.

If you spread a false rumor that results in damages, you share in the guilt even though you labeled it as rumor at the time.

----------------------------------

For one thing I see Greg from Diamond posted on his own about the story, and it's very interesting no?

Anyways, forget your questions, answer me this: If I spread a rumor and it turns out to be TRUE (which this one seems to have), and as a result of the rumor GOOD things happen, would you finally get off my ass?

05-05-2002, 11:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Greg/Diamond:</font><hr> Randyg, ....... ... I won the open bid on the first Pro Tournament a couple years ago. It was a big step at the time for my company, for the total cost was around $40,000. Greg/Diamond

any interest in being a division, after the buyout, of valley??

dan










<hr></blockquote>

SpiderMan
05-06-2002, 12:30 AM
Just got back from APA nationals. It's true, the tables were excellent and played great, with red circle cue balls. I did encounter one table/cueball combination where the cueball was not consistently returned (it got trapped with the object balls). This was during practice on Thursday - the tables were open, of course, during the tournament.

I'll be heading back out for BCA nationals in about 3-1/2 days. The tables in BCA will not be open, it will cost us a dollar for every game!

SpiderMan

Alfie
05-06-2002, 03:56 AM
Quote dinovirus- "For one thing I see Greg from Diamond posted on his own about the story, and it's very interesting no?"

Alf- Well, that's one side of the story, sketchy as it is; certainly enough information to go off halfcocked, though.

I don't think you know the difference between fact and rumor; or, if you do, you don't know how to present them in a forum.

When presenting something as fact, you should reveal your sources if challenged. You can't expect the rest of the world to blindly accept whatever you say as fact. Your sources (or their sources) could be wrong.

You should never present a rumor as fact. You should never spread a potentially damaging rumor.

Quote dinovirus- "Anyways, forget your questions, answer me this: If I spread a rumor and it turns out to be TRUE (which this one seems to have), and as a result of the rumor GOOD things happen, would you finally get off my ass?"

Alf- Ya think ya done good, huh? Anyway, I will be glad to answer this as soon as you answer my questions which you have avoided thus far.

Tell me why pros, who won't gamble their own money in a short race (7), will complain if a tournament features races to 13?

How do you know Barry made more than $800,000 off of the Cardiff tournament both years, after expenses? What are your sources?

You took exception to my three statement post. Which statement(s) did you disagree with and why?
1) You shouldn't spread a potentially damaging rumor.
2) A rumor, by definition, can be false.
3) If you spread a false rumor that results in damages, you share in the guilt even though you labeled it as rumor at the time.

Alfie
05-06-2002, 04:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr> Just got back from APA nationals. It's true, the tables were excellent and played great, with red circle cue balls. I did encounter one table/cueball combination where the cueball was not consistently returned (it got trapped with the object balls). This was during practice on Thursday - the tables were open, of course, during the tournament.

I'll be heading back out for BCA nationals in about 3-1/2 days. The tables in BCA will not be open, it will cost us a dollar for every game! <hr></blockquote>

Hey, Spidey, you paid up front for those open tables!

IMO

05-06-2002, 06:11 AM
GREG: Great post, thank you. What Pro pool organization are we suppose to admire and support????????...randyg

cuechick
05-06-2002, 08:14 AM
Hey Chris,
You consider 600+ women 'small attendence' ?!? But I agree, this is an excellent tournament, and one of the few times size doesn't matter! /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif
CC

Chris Cass
05-06-2002, 08:19 AM
Good question Dino,

I'd think he would?

C.C.~~sounds like an apology needed.

Fred Agnir
05-06-2002, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cheesemouse:</font><hr> randygt,
Spoke like a man who owns stock in Valley and who also hasn't played on the Diamond (real pool) tables. Hell, I may as well add that I strongly suspect you can't tell the difference between a nice shiney object and a pile of cow manure. If you haven't figured out that the Valley Bar Table is junk right off the assembly line then I can't help your unknownagable gludius maximus out. sorry my fingers wouldn't stop on that one. <hr></blockquote>

I'm late on this, but I know I'm not wrong in saying that RandyG (who mistyped his handle as randygt) knows about tables.

Fred

Scott Lee
05-06-2002, 08:48 AM
cuechick...the Diamond Smart Table is a regular slate table (1" slate, as opposed to the 1/2" slate on a valley bar table), that also uses a regular cueball...no magnets or oversize...so it plays the same as the 9 foot tables in your poolroom. They have the same dimensions and playability as the professional size Diamond tables. They are MUCH superior to the Valley tables in every respect.

Scott Lee

05-06-2002, 09:42 AM
You wrote:

"When presenting something as fact, you should reveal your sources if challenged. You can't expect the rest of the world to blindly accept whatever you say as fact. Your sources (or their sources) could be wrong."

I know sometimes it can be frustrating for people to see things written as fact without any way of knowing for sure if it's true. But as you know, you don't have to provide your sources unless you are legally challenged to do so.

If I post something as fact, you can be sure I have sources that I feel are reliable because I am prepared for any legal challenge since I post under my real name.

However, people such as dinovirus and yourself, who post anonymously, are not putting yourselves on the legal line, personally, when posting.

So, I look at whatever gets posted anonymously, and say to myself...hmmmm...could be, may not be, but it's interesting conversation none-the-less.

I'm afraid that's all one can do with anonymous posters, including yourself. For all we know, you could have a personal agenda in challenging dinovirus. It works two ways when you're posting anonymously.

So you guys can go back and forth forever, but none of us will ever know if either of you have a personal agenda.

I have seen some of the things written by dinovirus and I personally have confirmed a lot of that information, so I'm inclined to not to take that person's posts as totally fictitious, however, I will continue to read with caution. Anonymous is anonymous, no matter how you slice it.

Fran

Alfie
05-06-2002, 03:50 PM
Quote Fran- "You wrote:

""When presenting something as fact, you should reveal your sources if challenged. You can't expect the rest of the world to blindly accept whatever you say as fact. Your sources (or their sources) could be wrong."

"I know sometimes it can be frustrating for people to see things written as fact without any way of knowing for sure if it's true. But as you know, you don't have to provide your sources unless you are legally challenged to do so."

Alf- I said "should", Fran, not "must". And I wasn't thinking about legality, but morality.

Quote Fran- "If I post something as fact, you can be sure I have sources that I feel are reliable because I am prepared for any legal challenge since I post under my real name.

"However, people such as dinovirus and yourself, who post anonymously, are not putting yourselves on the legal line, personally, when posting."

Alf- You guys sure are hung up on this anonymity stuff, aren't you. Well, Fran, I'm a registered user here, that means CCB has my e-mail and whatever else I had to give them (don't remember what they required). If there is any legal action coming my way, CCB can get my particulars from my ISP if they don't already have them. So legally I'm putting myself on the line.

Now you, on the other hand, who are not registered, ...
and how do we know you are really Fran Crimi anyway? Maybe you are Fran's evil twin. :-)

This is not about legalities and anonymity. It is about morality and credibility.

Quote Fran- "So, I look at whatever gets posted anonymously, and say to myself...hmmmm...could be, may not be, but it's interesting conversation none-the-less.

"I'm afraid that's all one can do with anonymous posters, including yourself. For all we know, you could have a personal agenda in challenging dinovirus. It works two ways when you're posting anonymously.

"So you guys can go back and forth forever, but none of us will ever know if either of you have a personal agenda."

Alf- Any agenda will be in our words. Just read the words. And quit misinterpreting, dammit. :-)

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with having an agenda, IMO. But this is not about agendas. This is about facts, rumors, and credibility.

Quote Fran- "I have seen some of the things written by dinovirus and I personally have confirmed a lot of that information, so I'm inclined to not to take that person's posts as totally fictitious, however, I will continue to read with caution.

Alf- Sounds good to me.

Quote Fran- "Anonymous is anonymous, no matter how you slice it.

Alf- You guys really need to get over this. Just take the words for what they say.

IMO

05-06-2002, 07:55 PM
Registering a user name and e-mail address does not "declassify" you. Sorry, you're still anonymous to both BD and the readers of the CCB who don't know you personally, or who don't know someone who knows you personally. I don't think you're that unintelligent to understand how you can work around the system if you wanted to. I'm surprised I even have to say that to you.

As for your comment that we guys need to get over this, it's a very basic and fundamental concept, Alfie. Don't necessarily trust or believe who you don't know and who isn't willing to put their neck on the line for what they say.

That will always be the case and you as an anonymous poster will have to live with that.


Fran

Chris Cass
05-06-2002, 11:41 PM
Hi Cuechick,

HAHAHA, I meant the ones I've been attending. There's only a hand full of ladies. All very good players too. I guess mostly from MN and the surrounding areas.

Regards,

C.C.~~just like to see more women turn out. 600 women playing in Vegas? WOW, that's a lot of women. I'll hold the salt and just buy up front before I lose. LOL

Alfie
05-07-2002, 12:08 AM
Quote Fran-- "Registering a user name and e-mail address does not "declassify" you. Sorry, you're still anonymous to both BD and the readers of the CCB who don't know you personally, or who don't know someone who knows you personally. I don't think you're that unintelligent to understand how you can work around the system if you wanted to."

A-- I didn't want to. Should I have?

Quote Fran-- "I'm surprised I even have to say that to you."

A-- You ARE Fran's evil twin. Is there a full moon? /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Quote Fran-- "As for your comment that we guys need to get over this, it's a very basic and fundamental concept, Alfie. Don't necessarily trust or believe who you don't know and who isn't willing to put their neck on the line for what they say."

A-- On the Billiards Digest Cue Chalk Board..... Are you afraid I might recommend an inferior cue or something? Heaven forbid! hehehe

Whenever I, anonymous Alfie, state something of consequence to be fact (not merely my opinion) and anybody questions its veracity, all they have to do is ask for the source. Check the source as you should with any other poster. No source or a contradictory one? Then throw me on the pile with the other liars, rumor mongers, folks who are just plain mistaken, and other disseminators of unverified or false information. It's easy enough. Who I am in real life is not relevant at all to this process.

Of course, there is not much of consequence that is said here, especially by me so your risk in trusting and believing me is minimal. Actually, there is really nothing to be afraid of. /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Quote Fran-- "That will always be the case and you as an anonymous poster will have to live with that."

A-- Judge posters by what they say, whether you know their real life identity or not, IMO.

05-07-2002, 10:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rip:</font><hr> They aren't using Diamond lights except for one or two exhibition tables. Rip <hr></blockquote>


What are Diamond Lights?

SPetty
05-07-2002, 10:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Eddie G Chgo:</font><hr> What are Diamond Lights? <hr></blockquote>
You can see it here:

http://www.diamondbilliard.com/accessories.html

Gayle in MD
05-07-2002, 01:00 PM
Well folks, I want to add to this conversation several thoughts. Fran Crimi, Scott Lee, And Greg with Diamond Billiards Tables, are three of the most well informed and intensly devoted people involved in the Billiards Industry. My personal experiences with each of them have left me with nothing but the greatest respect for each of them. I can assure you that anything that is posted here on this forum by any of these three people, is the truth, and nothing but the truth. They are each honest, hard working and dedicated, not to mention that they each have a wealth of knowlege which they share unselfishly and spontaneously with anyone and everyone and at every opportunity. Their motivation in all that they do comes from a sincere disire to see the very best happen for our sport, each driven not by the dollar bill, but by their love of pool. I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting Randy G. of the famous pool school, but I certainly hope to meet him sometime. I have heard many good things about Randy, and about his school, many of which have been posted here. Further, this being my personal opinion, and formed from my own personal experiences, Diamond builds the very best table one could ever own, and that dollar for dollar, NO table can compare to the Diamond table. Not only is their table the best, but Greg stands behind his product. His desire to provide a true experience of pool playing for everyone playing on commercial tables is a quest from his heart. You cannot have a true playing experience when you have a weighted ball, which can't be weighted evenly from the center. I am not sure why the valley tables I have played on (in many states, BTW,) are junk, but they are. They are filthy, unlevel, often with torn and stained cloth, and with consistant problems regarding ball return. It is my opinion that Valley has vendors who do not take care of their equipment sufficiently, which further degrades their product. The very best that could happen for our sport would be to have bar and room owners sell off their valley tables and replace them with the Diamond Smart Table. Oh, and one more thing, I must say, whenever I read something on this forum which is posted by some ANON poster who doesn't identify him/her self, I totally disregard it. Also, I have noticed that when there is something posted here that is unkind, or seems self-serving commercially, it is almost always by an ANON poster.

Have a great day everyone,
GAyle in Md.

Greg/Diamond
05-07-2002, 04:17 PM
Randy:....You made me go back and read my previous post. I didn't mean to make reference to any Pro Pool organization that would lend itself to admiration or support. I'd have to admit I'm sick at the current status of Pro Pool! However, I'm not willing to throw in the towel yet......I'ts made me question why pool isn't doing as well as it should. I can see many reasons! Then I think about which one of these reasons can I possibly hope to make a difference. Being a table manufactuer and feeling Pool needs a strong amateur basis playing what I call "Real Pool", I directed my energies and recources to what I call "Bridging the Gap between Professional and Amateur Pool".........I'm trying to make the conditions amateurs play under as close to that of the 'would be' professionals as possible..... I have to say it like that, because I question the current status of "Professional Pool". Since the small amount of money added and few tournaments make it almost impossible to make a living playing as a professional. Nothing to do with one's ability to play the game...... In Golf, amateurs play from the white tees and pros from the gold ones. My comparison is the 7' tables are the white tees in pool and the 9's are the gold. The distances may be different in both sports, but the equipment used should remain as close as possible to allow someone to say "They may be an amateur, but they are still playing real golf or pool"!........Amateurs lay a strong foundation upon which a successful sport can build. We need the amateurs and the revenues they generate to make all pool successful. Without the support of the amateurs at my Derby City Tournament I would have had to reconsider keeping this an annual event. Tournament promoting is tuff action!!!!! Think of the amount of money that league players put in the tables and how much has actually been filtered back into tournaments and promoting the sport. I have ideas how this can be accomplished, but it will take the help of many, including Valley...........Greg/Diamond

05-07-2002, 07:35 PM
GREG: Now you're talking. Let's keep building the foundation. Some day the male pro will find his home.....randyg

Alfie
05-22-2002, 08:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> There's a banquet at the Vegas event? Are you sure you're not confusing it with the Trade Show? What you heard may be true, but unless Diamond steps forward and issues a formal complaint, no one can really say anything other than (as you said) express how they feel about the equipment. If there was some bid manipulation going on there, the BCA could stand to lose their not-for-profit status. I'm wondering about that because they'd have too much to lose by allowing something like that to occur.

There IS something they can do legally, though which I'm wondering about, and that's charge for comped rooms. There are a certain number of rooms offered to players for the price of $350 for the week. I'm not complaining about that part because that's a great price. However, the curious part is that we don't pay the Riviera the $350. We pay the promoter of the event. When I checked into the hotel last year, I was told by the clerk my room was "comped." On all other occasions, we never pay the promoter. We pay the hotel directly when we arrive. Even at the Valley Forge event, Dawn took our names and made the reservations for us, but we paid the hotel directly when we arrived.

The other curious thing about it all is that if you weren't able to get in on that "special price," (supposedly after the block was sold out) you could still get a reservation, but you have to pay the Riviera's rate of $69/night and pay them directly when you arrive.

So my question is: Does the promoter turn the $350 we paid over to the BCA, or the Riviera? Or... does the promoter get to keep the money...or does the promoter turn it over to the BCA and does the BCA keep it? Are these really comped rooms as I was told by the Riviera?

Fran (curious enough to get to the bottom of it.) <hr></blockquote>
I'm curious,too. Did you ever get to the bottom of it?