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View Full Version : I feel sorry for those who struggle with pool.



1Time
05-30-2004, 05:06 AM
I'm of course not referring to those who go on a date or friends who just want to have a good time. I'm talking about guys (usually) who compete, want to win, but just don't have game... a 3 or 4 ball run at best.

Somebody please tell me what it is that keeps someone like this from asking for help with their game? I refuse to believe it's a lack of players willing to instruct or at least offer a few pointers because I know this isn't true. What say you?

nhp
05-30-2004, 05:44 AM
It takes years to get good at the game. I've struggled, and sometimes I still do struggle. Years ago I never asked anyone for advice. I learned alot just by watching good players. I would copy their strokes, stances, etc. When I learned to play position, I would watch what they would do. When they would do a shot that I didn't know, I would remember what they did and keep practicing it until I was able to do it. That helped my game improve quite a bit. In fact, it helped me improve alot faster than doing drills. I used to watch players like Ernesto Dominguez, Tang Hoa, Santos Sambajon, Jose Parica, Morro Paez, Bernardo Chavez, and a few others. Watching them play near flawless pool was what kept that inner drive in me to keep practicing. These days, when I am out of stroke, I tend to lose interest in the game. I think the best cure for struggling at pool is watching really good players. I get this strong inner desire to practice so I can be like them.

nhp
05-30-2004, 05:51 AM
By the way, are you saying you never struggle with the game?

1Time
05-30-2004, 06:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> It takes years to get good at the game. I've struggled, and sometimes I still do struggle. Years ago I never asked anyone for advice. I learned alot just by watching good players. I would copy their strokes, stances, etc. When I learned to play position, I would watch what they would do. When they would do a shot that I didn't know, I would remember what they did and keep practicing it until I was able to do it. That helped my game improve quite a bit. In fact, it helped me improve alot faster than doing drills. I used to watch players like Ernesto Dominguez, Tang Hoa, Santos Sambajon, Jose Parica, Morro Paez, Bernardo Chavez, and a few others. Watching them play near flawless pool was what kept that inner drive in me to keep practicing. These days, when I am out of stroke, I tend to lose interest in the game. I think the best cure for struggling at pool is watching really good players. I get this strong inner desire to practice so I can be like them. <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you nhp for your excellent post. You've also described in large part how over the years I've been able to take my game to the "next level" (a few times). And so, I maintain you've given valuable advise that no doubt could help many players. Seriously, I cannot understate how valuable I've found the application of your advise to be to the improvement of my game over the years.

However, I've also benefited greatly, especially in my early years of playing, by asking for help, advise, and lessons from better players. Would you care to offer your opinion on what it is with so many players who don't have game that keeps them from asking for help?

nhp
05-30-2004, 07:33 AM
I think part of it is a pride issue. For some people, pool and masculinity go hand-in-hand. Another thing I've noticed is alot of players think they play better than they actually do. While the seasoned gambler would prefer most people don't know how good he plays, the amatuer usually wants everyone to see him or her on a good day. People like to show off. I know of a beginner, who totally ignores advice from good players because he thinks he plays good. Every time someone offers him some advice, he says "Ya I know that already" (even though he really doesn't). The guy is lucky to run three balls. But he feels that since every once in a while he can string a few balls together, he is an expert. I guess there are alot of reasons why people don't ask for advice. These are the best explanations I can give you.

bluewolf
05-30-2004, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> I think part of it is a pride issue. For some people, pool and masculinity go hand-in-hand. Another thing I've noticed is alot of players think they play better than they actually do. <hr /></blockquote>

I see this too and those players want to be good, get mad when they miss,choke, lose etc, but are not willing to pay for instruction, take suggestions. Then I have seen beginners, who were more open minded pass them in time. Maybe, other than time on the table, it is a function of how bad a person wants to improve, and what lengths they will go to do that.

It is pretty sad to see someone at the same skill for many years and be frustrated, but too proud or lazy to do anything about it. It almost seems that some of them want a quick fix, wanting to be good without doing the work.
Laura

Leviathan
05-30-2004, 07:58 AM
I think that most of us go through a stage where we just aren't knowledgeable enough or observant enough to recognize that we need help with fundamentals. For example, you'll see a beginning or intermediate player who has an off-the-wall stance or a severe chicken-wing stroke, and who doesn't know that he's messing himself up. And of course there are ego problems and simple embarrassment. I know I don't feel comfortable about asking casual acquaintances for help with my game.

It's tempting to offer advice, but I'm sure you've found that the people who seem to need it most are the ones least likely to benefit from it.

AS

Pelican
05-30-2004, 08:43 AM
Now, I will throw this back at ya. I feel sorry for those that will not accept advice from someone just because they shoot better than the person wanting to give the advice. I guess they assume that because they shoot better they must know more. Not always true. Due to age (almost 60), weakening eyes, and degenerative arthritis I now struggle with my game. Twenty years ago I was a top notch shooter. Not a pro but a high A shooter. Now I shoot APA and can only maintain a strong SL4. My eyes don't see so good and my back and joints ache constantly but you know what - I've got a hell of a lot of knowledge in my head. Most young people I give a bit of advice too will listen but there are always one or two that seem to have the "I'm better than you so I know more" attitude. To them I say, You are better than me because you are 35 or 40 years younger and much healthier than I am - but I still know more than you and with that attitude I probably always will.

One more thing. Every once in a while, not very often, but every now and then the back pain eases off and the balls get a tad more in focus. When that happens - LOOK OUT - it's lights out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Let me close by saying, don't fell sorry for the older guys that struggle. They my be like me and shoot just because they love the game - and remember when ..............

1Time
05-30-2004, 09:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> By the way, are you saying you never struggle with the game? <hr /></blockquote>

Of course it's always a struggle to improve one's game, to take it to the "next level". I just feel sorry for those players who are only running maybe 3 or 4 balls on average, and you know they want to win and get better, but just won't ask for help. They're missing out on how rewarding and enjoyable the game can be.

Oh sure I recall struggling to make it to that illusive "next level" of play, but I made it there in part due to the help of others, either by watching them or by seeking out and receiving their help. And then once I made it to that "next level", I'd struggle for some time just to keep playing at that level. However, later I'd begin to feel comfortable and confident playing at that level... only to later begin struggling towards a new "next level".

After 20+ years of playing 9-ball, I've reached a level of play I'm satisfied with. Quite frankly, I've really not attempted to improve my game or take it a "next level" for a few years now. I just don't have the time anymore it takes, so I enjoy where I'm at... struggle-free.

1Time
05-30-2004, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> I think part of it is a pride issue. For some people, pool and masculinity go hand-in-hand. Another thing I've noticed is alot of players think they play better than they actually do. While the seasoned gambler would prefer most people don't know how good he plays, the amatuer usually wants everyone to see him or her on a good day. People like to show off. I know of a beginner, who totally ignores advice from good players because he thinks he plays good. Every time someone offers him some advice, he says "Ya I know that already" (even though he really doesn't). The guy is lucky to run three balls. But he feels that since every once in a while he can string a few balls together, he is an expert. I guess there are alot of reasons why people don't ask for advice. These are the best explanations I can give you. <hr /></blockquote>

nhp, your perceptiveness reminds me of what Paul Newman was talking about to Vinny in the movie "The Color of Money" when he advised him to be "a student of human moves". Thank you for your explanations.

Popcorn
05-30-2004, 12:08 PM
Quote
"After 20+ years of playing 9-ball, I've reached a level of play I'm satisfied with. Quite frankly, I've really not attempted to improve my game or take it a "next level" for a few years now. I just don't have the time anymore it takes, so I enjoy where I'm at... struggle-free"


Why do you assume they don't feel the same way? Not everyone even cares about playing a lot better. For one thing, they know the commitment required to be a much better player and are not really interested to make that kind of commitment. One of the things I have always noticed, not only about pool but almost every endeavor. Once excellence become the goal the enjoyment of it becomes less. Most all pro athletes look forward to the day they don't have to play anymore. This is a game when they were a kid they loved to play with no more in the way of goals other then to have a good time. The people you refer to that don't seem to want help with their games are probably happy with the way they play or at least recognize they don't care enough, to make a serious commitment so they don't worry about it. You read it here all the time. "I hate to do drills", and so on. They want to get better but it is more wishful thinking real commitment. One can look around at top players and wish to play like them, but it is only a wish because they would never put in the effort required. That is the exceptional thing and what makes the athlete so admired in out society. They represent personal achievement that can only be obtained through personal work. No matter how rich you are you can't buy what they have, they earned it in a very special way. There is no luck to it, no being in the right place at the right time, it doesn't matter who your family is or who you know, you can't have what they have without the work involved to get it. Back to your original comments, UN committed people don't get results and they know it and accept it, they play the game for different reasons. They may act frustrated when they play bad but it is really superficial, they don't really care enough to do anything about it, and that is all right.

Leviathan
05-30-2004, 12:22 PM
Good stuff, Popcorn.

--AS

Chris Cass
05-30-2004, 12:49 PM
How true, how true.

Regards,

C.C.~~sees it all the time. Good post.

Popcorn
05-30-2004, 02:24 PM
It is interesting, most everything people believe they are striving for, is just wishful thinking. They will always fall short because of lack of any real commitment. Many never really recognize it and attribute all their short comings to bad luck. You find them sitting on a bar stool complaining how life has screwed them over.

Pelican
05-30-2004, 03:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You find them sitting on a bar stool complaining how life has screwed them over. <hr /></blockquote>

Oh, tis true tis true.

SPetty
05-30-2004, 05:13 PM
I've asked for help. I've received help. I've paid for help. I practice. I struggle. I don't play well. I don't want or need your pity.

ras314
05-30-2004, 05:38 PM
HAHAHAHA! SPetty, at least you know how to caulk a cue, something a lot of people never figure out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I don't think you shoot all that bad. Give it another 20 yrs like most of the good players have. Meanwhile one should remember it is a game and should be enjoyed.

1Time
05-30-2004, 07:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Why do you assume they don't feel the same way? <hr /></blockquote>

Either players struggle to better their game or not; either they are playing "struggle-free" and enjoying their level of play, or they are struggling to get better. Popcorn, you've simply gone off topic. I've attempted to focus the scope of this thread on those players who cannnot consistently play beyond the level of a 3 or 4 ball run and struggle to play better and win... yet will not ask for help.

I just feel sorry for these players because they are dedicated and put in their time, but struggle and are missing out on the rewards of playing better pool, in part because they won't ask for help. And, although I'm quite in agreement with nhp's explanations and comments, I truly would appreciate hearing any additional comments that address why these players will not ask for help. Thank you.

1Time
05-30-2004, 08:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I've asked for help. I've received help. I've paid for help. I practice. I struggle. I don't play well. I don't want or need your pity. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't feel sorry for you because you want or need my pity. I feel sorry for you because I am free to do so regardless of your wants or needs.

And, I appreciate your input because you've brought it to my attention that some players don't ask for help because they've already received help and it didn't work for them. Thank you.

cheesemouse
05-30-2004, 08:15 PM
1 Time,

Somebody mentioned pride and I think these players who continue to struggle and not improve have a misconception that the game is easy and they should be able to figure it out on their own. They also seem to be so into themselves that their powers of observation are poor so they learn little from better players; higher level play being proformed right in front of their eyes just doesn't register. They are too proud to ask for help, that would be like showing their tiny little pee pee...LOL... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

1Time
05-30-2004, 08:55 PM
Very insightful, cheesemouse. Although I doubt there's much correlation between how one feels about showing their "pee-pee", and their unwillingness to ask for help with their pool game, I see what you're saying and agree with you completely. Thank you.

Cueless Joey
05-30-2004, 08:57 PM
Don't feel bad for me.
I won $55 at a local handicapped tourney today. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
After food and gas, I had enough for Pick Up Stix dinner. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

1Time
05-30-2004, 09:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Don't feel bad for me.<hr /></blockquote>

No need to feel sorry for you... Congrats!

Popcorn
05-30-2004, 09:46 PM
How do you know they don't? What prompted this thread, did you offer unsolicited help and were told to get lost or something? Maybe they just don't want "your" help. Every pool room has the resident know it all, some of them can be down right annoying. I never approach anyone with advice, not even if we are playing unless they ask. If they don't ask that is their business. Going up to someone and saying, "You know what your problem is? Or "let me show you what you are doing wrong", dose not always get the best reception. I don't know that you do that but I get the impression you do and that may have prompted this thread.

1Time
05-30-2004, 09:56 PM
Popcorn, your imagination has the best of you and you're still off topic. Would you care to offer your opinion as to why these players will not ask for help? Thanks.

Popcorn
05-30-2004, 10:04 PM
I don't judge people, they don't ask, because they don't ask and that is their business. Did you ever consider you are probably wrong. Those that are interested "do" ask and the others are not interested, don't, why do you find something wrong with that? Why does everyone have to share your interest or your opinion? I sit in front of this computer everyday but know very little about it. A computer nerd would wonder how can I not be interested in playing games or building a computer. There is no answer because people have different priorities. When ever I have to talk to a computer person, my eyes begin to roll back in my head listening to them rattle off all kinds of junk, when I may have just asked a simple question. I don't think they are as much interested in helping me, as they are listing to themselves talk.

1Time
05-30-2004, 10:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I don't judge people, they don't ask, because they don't ask and that is their business. <hr /></blockquote>

I'll take that to mean you would rather not post on topic. I really would appreciate your opinion on why these players will not ask for help. However, I leave that up you. Thanks.

Pelican
05-30-2004, 10:18 PM
Pop, I think ya got him pegged.

Popcorn
05-30-2004, 10:30 PM
My answer is, you are wrong, they do ask.

1Time
05-30-2004, 10:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr> Let me close by saying, don't fell sorry for the older guys that struggle. They my be like me and shoot just because they love the game - and remember when .............. <hr /></blockquote>

Pelican, I have older guys like you to thank because of their experience and knowledge that's literally been given to me and for nothing more than the love of the game.

I of course wouldn't feel sorry for how you may play the game. I'd sooner respect you for your experience and knowledge and be grateful if by chance any of it rubbed off on me.

1Time
05-30-2004, 10:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> My answer is, you are wrong, they do ask. <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, thanks Popcorn. I appreciate your honest opinion.

Pelican
05-31-2004, 09:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>
Pelican, I have older guys like you to thank because of their experience and knowledge that's literally been given to me and for nothing more than the love of the game.

I of course wouldn't feel sorry for how you may play the game. I'd sooner respect you for your experience and knowledge and be grateful if by chance any of it rubbed off on me. <hr /></blockquote>

I appreciate your feeling that way. Popcorn is right-they do ask. Young players often ask us older players how we made a particular shot or some other matter pertaining to the game. I would guess that 99% of the older player are more than happy help. Knowledge that is not shared is like fruit that is allowed to die on the vine - what a waste.

1time, I get the impression you are an experienced shooter. Be more agressive in offering to share that experience with players that are 'struggling' especially beginning shooters. If they truely are struggling and want to improve most will thank you for your offer. If they are happy where they are at and say "no thanks", don't be critical just wish them the best and go away with the knowledge that you made the offer.

Oh, one other thing 1time, there will come a day when you will remember 'one time........'.

Cheers, Pel /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Cueless Joey
05-31-2004, 09:58 AM
I know a few at the pool hall who never ask.
They just think they missed. They never ask how to play shape on the ball they missed b/c they had a tough shape on it. My brother is the same way. He also has a bad memory of the setup. Almost never resets it right when he tries to reshoot the shot.
We all know a player or two who hit the balls too hard.

crawdaddio
05-31-2004, 11:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> We all know a player or two who hit the balls too hard.
<hr /></blockquote>

Am I not supposed to do that?J/K /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bluewolf
05-31-2004, 11:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I've asked for help. I've received help. I've paid for help. I practice. I struggle. I don't play well. I don't want or need your pity. <hr /></blockquote>

I can relate to you to a point Susan. I have asked for help and paid for it too. But, at this point, I know that I would get better faster if I put in more effort. I guess I am pretty realistic. I do keep improving, even if it is slowly, but found that beating myself over mistakes and practicing for hours detracts from my quality of life. I will still take a suggestion and sometime this boosts my game a bit, but have gotten past the pride part and do not particularly care what anyone thinks about my game or lack thereof unless it is someone sincerely trying to help.

I think that I play poorly because pool is not the center of my life. I try to practice a few times a week, ocassionally take lessons and play league. I feel good these days as long as I am improving and even when I am not because pool has become a hobby, just another hobby like photography and other things I have fun at.

Laura

Popcorn
05-31-2004, 12:32 PM
Quote

"I think that I play poorly because pool is not the center of my life."

That is the main reason most players only progress to a certain point and that is it. Even Mike Sigal does not play like he once did because he no longer puts in the time or has the interest. Not everybody has to be a champion to enjoy playing the game. It is fun when you play a little better but it may also be work you either don't want to commit to, or don't have the time to commit to. When ever I am practicing and someone wanting to improve their game asks how I got to be able to play like that. The answer is simple, I put in a ridicules amount of time at the expense of other areas of my life. It is something I choose not to do any more and however I play now, so be it. There comes a point as they say, to put away childish things. If you had a friend that just went fishing everyday at the expense of their job, family, unable to pay their bills, you would think they were nuts. I my opinion that is where the pool player is. It is fun to play but don't take it too serious. Some pros have a kick being at the top of their game for a short time, but in the end find themselves moving on to more realistic and rewarding endeavors. If that guy wants to feel sorry for anyone, let it be the obsessed player that wastes their life it in a pool room pursuing something completely meaningless. Keep it in perspective, I am just being honest.

Pelican
05-31-2004, 05:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If that guy wants to feel sorry for anyone, let it be the obsessed player that wastes their life it in a pool room pursuing something completely meaningless. <hr /></blockquote>

Go to disagree with that one popcorn. I would never do what you just stated but to some it is very important, not meaningless. A lot of people spend a lot of time, effort, and money on things simply because they enjoy doing it. I would rather see a young guy spend every waking minute obsessed with pool than with cocaine. Granted, obession with anything can be bad but there are a heck of a lot of things worse than pool. Like the song said - 'Different strokes for different folks'.

Later, Pel

Popcorn
05-31-2004, 06:19 PM
I am not saying not to enjoy doing it, just keep it in perspective. The game is a "Catch 22". What it takes to really play, requires you to almost abandon everything else, it is just not worth it. You can become a good player maybe playing the speed of players that may win a Local or state tournaments. But the step above that is not worth the sacrifice. The game is in reality an amateur sport. You have to either already have means and not have to worry about paying bills or accept being a bum if you want to be a top player and the rewards are zero. The only in-between is to play for a few years, see what you achieve for the fun of it and then get on with a real life. Just my opinion.

SpiderMan
05-31-2004, 09:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I don't judge people, they don't ask, because they don't ask and that is their business. <hr /></blockquote>

I'll take that to mean you would rather not post on topic. I really would appreciate your opinion on why these players will not ask for help. However, I leave that up you. Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>

1Time,

I think what Popcorn is tactfully saying is that just because certain players have never approached you with a question does not mean that they don't seek advice. Almost everyone has someone whose opinion they value, and may save their questions for that respected mentor.

SpiderMan

catscradle
06-01-2004, 04:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> I'm of course not referring to those who go on a date or friends who just want to have a good time. I'm talking about guys (usually) who compete, want to win, but just don't have game... a 3 or 4 ball run at best.

Somebody please tell me what it is that keeps someone like this from asking for help with their game? I refuse to believe it's a lack of players willing to instruct or at least offer a few pointers because I know this isn't true. What say you? <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe they've sought help and haven't found it. Besides the fact that a good instructor is a very different (and rarer) thing than a good player, there has to be a connection between the student and the teacher. I've been to several instructors and I really feel only 1 was of any help and I think he was primarily of help because he'd play free games with me after the lesson for 2 or 3 hours because he loved to play. He'd spot me appropriately and we'd play.
The biggest problem I find with instructors is they just spout the same things I've read in a half-dozen books. I KNOW what to do, my problem is execution; not many instructors deal well with correcting execution. If you're a rank beginner they can help much more than when you reach the 3-4 ball run stage. At that point it is a rare instructor who is really helpful.
IMHO.

catscradle
06-01-2004, 04:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr> ... One more thing. Every once in a while, not very often, but every now and then the back pain eases off and the balls get a tad more in focus. When that happens - LOOK OUT - it's lights out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
... <hr /></blockquote>

To quote an old blue grass song:

"Let an old race horse run, let him let out his stride, let him feel the wind in his mane again, let an old race horse run."

I may not have the lyrics exactly right, but you get the drift. It's good to let out your stride now and again.

bluewolf
06-01-2004, 05:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr>
maybe they've sought help and haven't found it. Besides the fact that a good instructor is a very different (and rarer) thing than a good player, there has to be a connection between the student and the teacher. I've been to several instructors and I really feel only 1 was of any help and I think he was primarily of help because he'd play free games with me after the lesson for 2 or 3 hours because he loved to play.
<hr /></blockquote>

There are some in our poolhall teaching who should not be. i have known this guy for over a year and had seen him play lots of times, an sl4 (who I played last session), who was really struggling and got this instructor to help him. He had, in the opinion of some a very nice stroke and grip and this instructor was trying to change what was already working. This guy I knew had been an sl4 for at least two years, winning some, losing some. He was a recreational player who just practiced a little due to having a family(other committments), who just liked to come out and play league once a week, but still, after this 'wonderful instruction', he went down to an sl3, which he has not been for a long time.He WAS seeking a way to get better but did not get it and got worse.

And how does a weak player know a good instuctor from a bad one? That is the million dollar question. I am not saying that there are not good tips out there but there are bad ones too.

I am glad that I got instuction on fundamentals from scott and randy so even if mine arent perfect I know how to tell if someone is giving good tips.

It is not that I do not have goals. I do hope that one day I can become a decent player. So I try to keep getting better, take lessons, practice 2-3 times a week, but just do not worry too much about it because 'time takes time' and I do not practice enough to improve quickly. I do think that to not be in knots is something lots of players have to learn. To be able to compete hard, concentrate, be relaxed and be able to come away from the match satisfied that one learned from their mistakes, will try not to make the same ones next time and enjoy the game and what they learned in that match is important too.


Laura

pooltchr
06-01-2004, 07:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>And how does a weak player know a good instuctor from a bad one? ...I am glad that I got instuction on fundamentals from scott and randy so even if mine arent perfect I know how to tell if someone is giving good tips.
Laura <hr /></blockquote>

Laura, The thing with Scott and Randy is they are real instructors. Neither of them showed you how to play pool..they showed you how to LEARN to play pool. Sure, they showed you how to do certain things, but it was left up to you to work on those things and develop the skills to put them to work for you.
That is the difference between good and poor instruction. Are you better off if I show you how to make a shot, or how to figure out how to make a shot? Which is going to have a bigger impact on your overall game? That is the answer to your million dollar question.
Steve

Scott Lee
06-01-2004, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I've asked for help. I've received help. I've paid for help. I practice. I struggle. I don't play well. <hr /></blockquote>

Spetty...WHAT??? That's a bunch of baloney! You play quite well, imo...unless you're trying to compare yourself to Alison or Jeanette! The truth is, you're getting better each year! I know, I've seen it...and I'll continue to help you achieve the goals you want to set for yourself!

Just a thought from one of your pool buddies... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

bluewolf
06-01-2004, 01:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>

Laura, The thing with Scott and Randy is they are real instructors. Neither of them showed you how to play pool..they showed you how to LEARN to play pool. Sure, they showed you how to do certain things, but it was left up to you to work on those things and develop the skills to put them to work for you.
That is the difference between good and poor instruction. Are you better off if I show you how to make a shot, or how to figure out how to make a shot? Which is going to have a bigger impact on your overall game? That is the answer to your million dollar question.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve, I would not give anything for what I learned from those two guys. Not only do they teach you how to learn to play,what good fundamentals are and other things, they can communicate what they are trying to teach. I wish more people would take lessons from instructors like that. What happens often, unfortunately, even in ones who want instruction, ask who are the best instructors. They get referred often to those who are teaching who are not near the caliber that randy and scott is. There is, in fact, one man in our area who has been teaching for 30+ years. I talked to him because of his reputation and decided not to take lessons from him because he teaches opposite fundamentals from Scott and Randy. He is just a big know it all who thinks he is better than all of the BCA instructors.

I think some people who do not know what good instruction is can end up in the wrong hands and get more damage done to their game than anything. I have to say that if I were not on ccb, and heard about Randy and Scott here, I would not, as a beginner, have known the difference either.

Laura

DialUp
06-01-2004, 09:17 PM
The most fun I get out of playing pool is reaching that next level by discovering a "secret" to the game. I would rather have the epiphany by my own quest for knowledge than have it handed to me.

It was a great feeling to be lying in bed thinking about pocket billiard concepts and knowing I just figuired out a major obsticle. Not being able to sleep because I wanted to go try it out, then having it improve my game "over night". I've spent many nights out in the garage practing and I am sure I could have learned much faster but, for me, figuring it out is, at least, 51% of the fun.

I'm not saying I don't appreciate a good pointer, because I do, but I get more satasfaction out of using my brain processing power to give me the answers I am looking for /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Popcorn
06-01-2004, 09:32 PM
The problem with that method is, people would have to keep reinventing the wheel. Since we all have only a limited period of time on this planet, we would still be back in the stone age if we did not take what others have done learned and expanded on it.

9_ball
06-01-2004, 10:02 PM
I don't feel sorry for them, I step up and ask if they want an idea to inprove their game. Being almost 60 has taught me that alot of folks don't want to ask for help but if you watch them play, you can pickout the shots that they would really like help with. Back in the sixties I did it the hardway by not asking anyone and figuring everything on my own. I don't wish that on anyone, so I step in and offer my idea's. Most smile and say sure but of course there are a few that tell me where to go!! I don't teach them how to shoot but I tell them the how's and why's of my shots and tell them to do whatever works for them.
Having knowledge is wasted, if not shared with others!!!!!

Pelican
06-02-2004, 11:52 AM
I got an idea 9_ball. You, popcorn, and I could start an old-farts pool information service /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

piglit
06-02-2004, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> HAHAHAHA! SPetty, at least you know how to caulk a cue, something a lot of people never figure out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
...<hr /></blockquote>

Oh no! Even if this advice comes from an old wise man...DON'T DO IT!!

-pigu

9_ball
06-02-2004, 02:07 PM
Good Idea!!
The main problem will be how to teach our friends to have patience and understanding. Pool is only a game that's fun to play and whoever we play against is a fellow player and not an enemy. I have strangers come up to ask me questions because they know they won't get laughed at or told how badly they play. If our friends would us to throw out some oldtime advice, I'm all for it.
If we can't help each other who can??

bigbro6060
06-02-2004, 06:21 PM
anyone serious about the game will find a way to improve

Improvements in fundamentals will improve your game way more than anything else upto a certain level, then it's about gaining knowledge

I believe it takes years to gain the very subtle aspects of positional play

Pelican
06-02-2004, 08:09 PM
I wonder if they have a pool table in "the home"? /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Pelican
06-02-2004, 08:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigbro6060:</font><hr>

I believe it takes years to gain the very subtle aspects of positional play

<hr /></blockquote>

Naw, the "Karma Sutra" helped me a bunch with my positional stuff. Oh, you're probably talking about the cue ball huh? Never mind. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Popcorn
06-03-2004, 02:28 AM
"Home", what kind of crack is that. I do three miles a day on the tread mill, I hit the heavy bag for about fifteen minutes, then finish off with another two miles. Three days a week I do weight lifting as well as hit the speed bag and yoga with my wife. I have never smoked, done drugs or had a drink of alcohol in my life, (No kidding, I once had to take a lie detector test and the guy thought there was something wrong with the machine). I have also been a vegetarian for over 30 years. When I get a cold or something, it lasts like three days while I see everyone else around me sick for weeks. My wife is the same way, I think it is our diet, we just don't get sick. You know, I went to my 35th year high school reunion a few years back. I'm there with my 65 Mustang and shoulder length hair, (no gray) and feel like a kid. I couldn't figure out who all those old men were, with their flabby arms, balding heads, bellies hanging over their belts. I will tell you my friend, I'm a long way from a home The only trick age has played on me is my eyesight, I need glasses now and I should really wear them when I play pool but I don't have a good pair to play in.

bluewolf
06-03-2004, 04:22 AM
Popcorn,

I can relate to not getting sick. Other than that bout i had a couple of years ago, and some back things, I never catch the common cold and like you, when I used to, it never lasted more than 3 days. I used to think that it was all the exercise I did, a clean diet,and so forth, but when I was diagnosed with hepatitus and the titer done, a year later, my body had killed most of the virus, somehow.

Guess we can count our lucky stars.

laura

catscradle
06-03-2004, 05:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> "Home", what kind of crack is that. I do three miles a day on the tread mill, I hit the heavy bag for about fifteen minutes, then finish off with another two miles. Three days a week I do weight lifting as well as hit the speed bag and yoga with my wife. I have never smoked, done drugs or had a drink of alcohol in my life, (No kidding, I once had to take a lie detector test and the guy thought there was something wrong with the machine). I have also been a vegetarian for over 30 years. When I get a cold or something, it lasts like three days while I see everyone else around me sick for weeks. My wife is the same way, I think it is our diet, we just don't get sick. You know, I went to my 35th year high school reunion a few years back. I'm there with my 65 Mustang and shoulder length hair, (no gray) and feel like a kid. I couldn't figure out who all those old men were, with their flabby arms, balding heads, bellies hanging over their belts. I will tell you my friend, I'm a long way from a home The only trick age has played on me is my eyesight, I need glasses now and I should really wear them when I play pool but I don't have a good pair to play in. <hr /></blockquote>

I also appear much younger than my contemporaries and I'm a long time "meat and potatoes" man. I think your youthful appearance and physical activity has a lot more to do with genetics than diet. I agree that the physical activity helps, but the ability to maintain it may just be a reflection of good genes in the first place.
JMHO and a bit off topic.

Popcorn
06-03-2004, 09:54 AM
You have to be physicality fit. It may not make you live one day longer, but hopefully the day before you die you are out doing the things you like to do and not sitting in the house connected to an oxygen machine. Some illness you can't do anything about, but I heard a doctor say years ago that people could prevent more illness then he could ever cure. This post can be somewhat pool related in that you do have to be in pretty good shape to play pool. I remember a few years back Ray Martin playing in a tournament that was an all around tournament. One Pocket Straight pool and 9-ball. (This may have been a Grady tournament if I remember right). He was in all three divisions and there were some scheduling mess ups. He was playing well and still in all three tournaments. The last day or two he played non stop from morning to night switching from one game to another. You have to be in shape to play like that. I remember one late night match seeing him with his shoes off playing in his socks. I gained a renewed respect for him at that tournament as a lot more then just a straight pool player but a tough all around player that could stand up. You look at some of these top players and they look like a stroke waiting to happen.

Steve Lipsky
06-03-2004, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> I KNOW what to do, my problem is execution... <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Cats. I must take issue with this statement. I've hashed this out on the board before, but (imo) you should really be careful with this one.

I don't know how well you play, but there are many, many, many situations that come up where you will choose the wrong shot. I know I do a lot.

It is a very dangerous thing to assume the only reason you don't play better is simply because of execution. It's also a little demeaning to the elite players (the Archers, Stricklands, etc...) to feel the reason they are better than you is solely because they make more shots. A main reason they are better is because they have played standard shots 30 different ways 1,000 times each and have discovered which way is best for that exact situation.

The real beauty of this game is to see the most effective patterns, positional plays, and percentage plays (imo). To get out because you made it easy, and not because you just didn't miss.

When I watch a better player, I couldn't care less how he holds the cue, where he stands, etc. All I am watching is to see what shots he chooses. When he plays safe. How many rails he decides to go. I am not saying this advice is the only thing there is, but I do think it should be considered.

- Steve

9_ball
06-03-2004, 01:36 PM
Old Timers don't need a pool table in "the home" because we have learned to adapt to any table. Old time pool players don't just get old, we get better just like a fine wine!!!!

integra707
06-03-2004, 09:54 PM
Well, I can give you my opinion, as a young (learning) player.

Many times I'll be in a pool room knocking the balls around, and there will be many better players than me shooting near me. It's sometimes intimidating to ask people for advice, because really, you don't know how they will react. I've been in a pool room MANY times, and asked a better player if they wanted to shoot around, and I have NEVER had anyone agree. Everytime I try to get advice, it seems I'm shot down, and typically they're not very polite about it. Most veterans want to keep to themselves, or play people of similar skill level. It seems from my past experience not many are willing to lend some advice.

Luckily I met Brad (1Time) through the CCB here, and he was very VERY willing to lend a beginning player a hand. I learned more from his help in only one night, than shooting drills and practicing poor habbits for months.

If more people were willing to give advice I would be very excited to recieve it. Some people just aren't willing to help out others.

That's my personal experience at least.

-Will "anxiously awaits his next lessons from Brad" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

shooter72283
06-04-2004, 12:13 AM
I have felt your pain, integra707. I started playing seriously in December. I'm 20 years old and was the new guy at a poolhall filled with old die-hard pool veterans. At first, none of them seemed to notice me or to want anything to do with me, but after about a month of going in there almost everyday and trying to teach myself, one of the old guys came over and said in a fairly rude tone, "lemme show ya something." He proceeded to show me a drill on how to use the clock system by making the cue ball hit every diamond on the table off of the same shot. He also had me do a drill where I was to put follow or draw on the cueball in increaing increments of diamonds. When he was teaching me this, he treated it as if he were reluctantly giving me a map to his buried treasure. Now I can see why, because lately I've had to start giving him a spot! There are other guys who are only willing to show me something if I am willing to pay for it. One day, a guy who is one of the best veteran players in town asked if I wanted to play a set to seven for $50, giving me the six out. I took the bet, knowing that I'd lose, but also knowing that I was sure to learn something. He beat the living crap out of me, but whenever he had a shot that he knew I didn't know how to make or get position off of, he told me to stand behind him while he took it. Next thing I know, he can only afford to give me the call 8, and even that is far from a lock. Now adays, most of the guys in there treat me well and let me know if I'm messing up, "you stood up too quick on that shot. Do it again and this time, STAY DOWN." There are still those who won't give me the time of day and treat me like I'm their errand boy, "hey son, go grab me a Mich Lite." I am just confident in the knowledge that these guys are scared to death because they know that their time is fading quickly and their last memory of the poolhall will be me beating them out of every dime they have. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif One thing that I noticed from this experience is that these guys really don't want to be asked for advice, but if you show them that you are truly, truly serious about taking your game to the next level, they will sense it and in their own messed up, twisted sort of way, they will try to help. Just keep in mind that the better players are more than likely also good gamblers, and they know that the more good players are around them, especially young guys who can outlast them and see down the table a little better, the lower their odds of winning get.

catscradle
06-04-2004, 04:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> I KNOW what to do, my problem is execution... <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Cats. I must take issue with this statement. I've hashed this out on the board before, but (imo) you should really be careful with this one.
...
- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Point taken.
Maybe a better way to state it would be to say I've more knowledge than ability to execute, the way I stated it before does seem to imply that I've all the knowledge anyone could ever want.
The main point I was trying to make was that most insturctors go over the same old chestnuts, and they are appropriate for the beginner and even to some extent for the experienced player. However, correcting a person's execution is a much more difficult proposition and it has been my experience that most are not up to the task (even if they are BCA certified).
As far as watching the pros goes, I find it very instructive to watch and LISTEN to accu-stats tapes, especially when narrated by Bill Incardona. Seems as if he may be a little arrogant, but he sure knows his stuff.

Chris Cass
06-04-2004, 07:29 AM
Hi Shooter,

I think your not seeing the real deal. It's not that your going to beat them down the road as many might think. It has to do with what they've put in to get where they are. They just might feel that you, a beginner think you can just walk up and expect them to give you free advice for something that they've paid for in loses, hard work and something they didn't get for free, experience.

So, before you go off half cocked and think it's for the reasons you might think. There just may be other things you've missed.

You might try another approach. Maybe ask them, would you be willing to spend the day with me to help me understand the game a little better. I'd be willing to pay your time and buy lunch. You may get a different reaction. You may even see other might help you out other times because they'll see your not out for a free ride. About you running for beers. That's one form of payment and not demeaning.

Please don't be a player hater,

C.C.~~knows old school

Rod
06-04-2004, 10:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote integra707:</font><hr> Well, I can give you my opinion, as a young (learning) player.

I've been in a pool room MANY times, and asked a better player if they wanted to shoot around, and I have NEVER had anyone agree.
<hr /></blockquote>

Keep in mind your actions while in the poolroom, there might be a reason. Treat it more towards an interview for a job, if you get my drift. If you show signs of really wanting to learn, it should help you a lot in the long run.

What Chris told you is true, not all of us are that way. In my case I just don't want to be bugged, unless......
I rarely play with someone new but I will help them out if asked. Just don't keep interrupting and wait for a time their not busy and get to know them. This game/life takes patience and it can not be, I want it all now. You will get to play better players in time but for now I think you might need to learn a better approach.

Most good players like competition not someone that sells out all the time. For me there is little fun playing that way and I think you'll find that to be true with many players. However when you get the opportunity to play, pay attention and by all means rack the balls well. LOL When you get that opportunity, don't blow it and you just might find in time more receptive players to help with your game.

Many of us have been there so don't feel alone or take anything personally. I don't know you so no judgment is coming from here, just a few thoughts.

Rod

integra707
06-04-2004, 11:12 AM
Rod, Thank you for the advice. I'll keep that in mind when I'm asking for help.

I feel like when I'm in a pool room, I'm on "good beavior." When I'm practicing, I go in alone, set my balls up, and shoot drills. I don't make any noise or anything. I don't feel like I'm being the typical obnoxious 20 year old "kid" in the pool room (at least I try VERY hard not to be.) When I ask for help, it's usually when they are sitting after a game. Each and every time, I feel like I just get the cold shoulder.

Maybe I've just asked a few bad people. Knowing that some veterans are willing to help, gives me SOME hope. So I'll just keep asking around.

Thanks again for the advice,
-Will

Rod
06-04-2004, 11:54 AM
Your welcome Will, glad to be of some assistance. When I grew up it was play the old guys, then take that and lose to the better players. Well the old guys quit and very few intermediate players. It was a struggle but it all paid off in time. Before I left I was a match for anyone there but not necessarily a favorite. Little did I know my pool education had just started. LOL Hang in there it happens.

Rod

SpiderMan
06-04-2004, 12:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Most good players like competition not someone that sells out all the time. For me there is little fun playing that way and I think you'll find that to be true with many players. <hr /></blockquote>

So THATS why you never meet me in 'Vegas in May for a rematch!

SpiderMan

Rod
06-04-2004, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
So THATS why you never meet me in 'Vegas in May for a rematch!
<hr /></blockquote>

Give me a break. LOL I had fun and a few beers to. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I just don't want to be the rack boy!

Now the truth, I had two days and it just felt like it would be like driving up and back. Not to mention I've played little, now which end do I chalk. ha ha ha

Rod

9_ball
06-04-2004, 08:05 PM
Will
I have met many people just like you describe, young and old. It seems that they are mad at themselves and the rest of the world. It's people like them that give pool a real bad name. Look at the next game where two high ranking players are shooting and watch the player who loses. Odds are if the loser acts pissed off and the mood continues for more than ten minutes, he's one of types that's angry at the world.

Look for people who can lose, laugh about it and start shooting a new game. They have learned to accept a loss as just that, a loss and not the end of the world.

Even people of equal skill level as you, can teach you something. No one is great at all area's of pool so you can help them and they can help you.

If you find some one that is an expert, please stay away because once they attain that level, their learning curve levels out and they stop trying to improve, because they are "EXPERTS".
Next time I head out your way, I will give you a heads up and we can shoot until the cows come home!! Or until my wife yells about it. What the hell after 31 yrs she has earned the right.

1Time
06-05-2004, 03:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DialUp:</font><hr> The most fun I get out of playing pool is reaching that next level by discovering a "secret" to the game. I would rather have the epiphany by my own quest for knowledge than have it handed to me.

It was a great feeling to be lying in bed thinking about pocket billiard concepts and knowing I just figuired out a major obsticle. Not being able to sleep because I wanted to go try it out, then having it improve my game "over night". I've spent many nights out in the garage practing and I am sure I could have learned much faster but, for me, figuring it out is, at least, 51% of the fun.

I'm not saying I don't appreciate a good pointer, because I do, but I get more satasfaction out of using my brain processing power to give me the answers I am looking for /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for posting DialUp. I really enjoyed reading your comments. I know exactly what you mean. You've described how 20+ years ago I enjoyed practicing and competing in a local tavern for the first couple of years I took pool seriously. I remember it truly was rewarding to figure out or discover something on my own that improved my game. And, of course it still is rewarding to "get it".

However, it wasn't until I then began competing and/or socializing with much better players, road hustlers, a Big Ten collegiate champ and his competitive friends, and a few of the top local tournament players, that I acquired an appreciation for how well the game could be played, (and that I was completely out of my league and wanted a faster way of getting better).

My game improved much faster once I began asking for help and receiving the help offered to me. Then later as my game improved, watching and imitating the stroke and play of better players helped me take my game to the next level.

DialUp, I respect your attack on the game; I mean that's how I used to do it. However, for me it's now laughable to think I ever could have improved and enjoyed the game as much as I have, had I primarily relied on my own best thinking to better my game. Of course one can improve by figuring out the game on their own, but for me... I'll take all the help I can get, and thank you VERY much.

1Time
06-05-2004, 03:44 AM
Double posted.

1Time
06-05-2004, 04:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote integra707:</font><hr> Maybe I've just asked a few bad people. Knowing that some veterans are willing to help, gives me SOME hope. So I'll just keep asking around.<hr /></blockquote>

Once you're 21 it will be easier to find people willing AND able to help since you'll have access to a bar whether in a tavern or a pool hall. Learning where and how to look for help can be frustrating but it doesn't have to be. Just frequent the different pool halls in town. The Cue Club and Cue-Topia are sure to have such players. Play in a few tournaments and ask around. Watch the games others are watching at the pool halls and let them know you're looking for someone to help with your game. Often, offering to pay a better player's time on a table is all it takes. However, beware many players will want to gamble and may give you a line like gambling is how you get better. I remember getting one of the best lessons I ever had from a guy we called Kansas City Lou (a.k.a. $2.00 Lou) who only charged me his time on the table and a cheeseburger, fries and a drink. But by far most of the stuff I learned from others cost the rent for the table or less. Bartenders usually know what's going on and will point out helpful players to you or pass the word on you're looking for help with your game. Of course it doesn't hurt to first turn 21, buy a drink and leave a tip. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

1Time
06-05-2004, 04:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote integra707:</font><hr> -Will "anxiously awaits his next lessons from Brad" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

You're on... just call me after 2:00pm or I'll call you and we'll set something up.