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View Full Version : Short races good 'cause they favor weaker players?



Leviathan
06-01-2004, 11:22 PM
Got into a conversation with a guy at the weekly 9-Ball tournament this evening. He mentioned that he'd advised the sports bar's manager to shorten the races that decide the first three places. He argued that this would give weaker players a better chance to luck out, win bigger prizes. I told him that I prefer the longer races--that I think the better players have paid their dues and deserve their wins. I told him I thought the weaker players should work to improve their skills or just forget about winning and play for the fun of it.

The guy looked at me like I was a space alien--then offered to find me a place on an APA team in a league he runs. Sweet Jesus, I get so tired...

AS

Tom_In_Cincy
06-01-2004, 11:35 PM
I run weekly tournaments
One is for 'b' players, race to 3, single elimination, $5 entry fee.
One is handicapped race to 5 with games on the wire $10 entry fee.
One is Open DE race to 6 on the winner side 4 on the one loss side. $15 entry fee.

It is a God Given right for all pool players to complain about anything.

Offering long races to the better players that have paid their dues is good, but how many of those players support the tournament?

Having a separate tournament for the 'b' players works well, but you have to constantly be judging player's skills. When does a 'b' player become an 'a'?

Short races are good for the weaker players. Longer races will usually help the better players overcome some of the 'lucky rolls' anyone can get.

Popcorn
06-02-2004, 12:17 AM
I think each situation is different. My first consideration would be the long term success of the tournament. That would determine how I would run it.

Ralph S.
06-02-2004, 01:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think each situation is different. My first consideration would be the long term success of the tournament. That would determine how I would run it. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Now that is a good answer. </font color>

Chris Cass
06-02-2004, 01:43 AM
Hi Alan,

Well I think there's different agendas going on. When running a tourney it comes down to time. A long tourney keeps the players there and spending money on food and refreshments.

The shorter tourney gets the not so busy nites busy but some players don't spend money. Some buy one drink and sit on it. Food maybe?

It depends on the owner and his wants and needs. Odviously, all the better shooters have paid their dues and the new ones mostly want to just win. I've seen this for a longtime now. They like the chance to ride the 9 and don't care about getting better but getting the chance to win.

To be honest, the majority of players are c/d level and some with no regard to improvement. The ones that want to excell end up playing in higher entry events to play better you must play with better players. The better players trying to get in these small events are just looking to steal. It's a shame but some regard pool as a fun way to make money on a chance. Others want to win on a skill.

I walked into Chris' Billiards and I had a guy walk up and woof at me. Then, when I agreed to play he wanted weight. Now, I don't know this kid and he still insisted. I agreed to the 8 wild and he turned it down. He said to me, how do I know your not a champion? I said, because you asked me to play. He declined to comment. So, I told him, Oh, I'm sorry, you just wanted to woof some.

That's the stuff I see.

Regards,

C.C.

shooter72283
06-02-2004, 02:01 AM
Chris,
The exact same thing happened to me this weekend! Seriously, the guy even woofed at me! And it wasn't just an "across-the-room" woof, it was a "two-inches-from-my-face" woof. He didn't ask for weight, but after I beat him outta $15 in 3 straight $5 games of 8-ball, he started calling me a hustler! I simply let him know that if I was a hustler, I would have given him the impression that he had a chance of winning.
As far as the actual subject of this thread, I guess the toruney director just needs to decide what night will be for what. The tourney I played in last night was unrated 10-ball races to two. I was out in the second round when my opponent, who was rated a 3.5, got an easy combo off one break and sank the ten on the second. I played the same guy tonight and beat him 7-5, after having to give him 4 games and the call 8. As far as the owner's perspective- last night's turnout was about 9 people and we were all out the door by 11. Tonight, we finished around 1:30 and were pretty lit on our way out the door. I'd have to say that the format was the deciding factor in how many people show up and how long they decide to stick around. I know I probably won't want to drive all that way again just to pay $15 to play in a race-to-2 tourney.

Leviathan
06-02-2004, 05:53 AM
Tom, Popcorn, Ralph, Chris--I see that you're right; the tournament format has to make sense from the room owner's point of view. The room owner has to offer a product he can sell. Basically, I'm just bellyaching because I had to listen to someone who wasn't enlightened enough to see things exactly the way I do, and I realize that that's kinda foolish /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif. I respect room owners, TDs, and anyone else who keeps a sense of tolerance, perspective, and good humor about issues (or non-issues) like this.

--AS

SPetty
06-02-2004, 07:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> ...bellyaching because I had to listen to someone who wasn't enlightened enough to see things exactly the way I do ...<hr /></blockquote>HAHAHAHA! Happens to me all the time! HAHAHAHA!

Chris Cass
06-02-2004, 08:26 AM
Hi Shooter,

LOL I know what your saying. These guys start the woofing then call you the hustler. LOL Now, who asked who to play? LOL Man, I hate that. I now go to extremes to woof right back or sometimes I'll agree with them and yes, I am a champion and how much weight do you need? LOL

I remember Jesse woofing at Jimmy Wetch at our little tourney. He said, lets play some for a thousand. Jimmy looked at him with a straight face and said, a THOUSAND? Put up Ten and we'll talk. LOL It's all BS, isn't it?

Race to 2 for $15.00 entry? It comes down to two things. The flip and the serve. If you win the flip? You get the first and last game. You have to win your serve.

Regards,

C.C.~~they want to get it over with before it starts. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
06-02-2004, 08:43 AM
Hi Alan,

Your not the only one. It's been an ongoing thing in every job. In the casino, just ask the question to 4 people and you'll get 4 answers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

What is a good dealer?

The Player: A good dealer is one that I can win with easily. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The Dealer: A good dealer is one that can deal without mistakes.

The Pit boss: A good dealer is one that can win back the money the other one dumped.

The Management: A good dealer is one that deals multiple games, doesn't cheat, shows up to work on time w/o call ins and one that displays a winning attitude and friendly atmosphere for our customers to come back.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Leviathan
06-02-2004, 08:58 AM
Quote the C-Man:

"These guys start the woofing then call you the hustler. LOL Now, who asked who to play? LOL Man, I hate that. I now go to extremes to woof right back or sometimes I'll agree with them and yes, I am a champion and how much weight do you need? LOL"

Love this stuff, Chris! I'd never make it as a gambler; I wouldn't know how to keep a straight face if a stranger came at me and asked me to give him a spot!

--Alan

Frank_Glenn
06-02-2004, 09:49 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Love this stuff, Chris! I'd never make it as a gambler; I wouldn't know how to keep a straight face if a stranger came at me and asked me to give him a spot!
<hr /></blockquote>

I know what to say after you put a sixpack on them and they all of a sudden want a spot.

"Spot? I can't give you a spot, I haven't seen you shoot yet."

Popcorn
06-02-2004, 09:59 AM
You actually had a valid point, the problem is without the weaker players participating there would be no prize to win period, they need to be accommodated. Short race or long, the better player in still favorite, that only changes by degree.

woody_968
06-02-2004, 10:08 AM
I am at work and didnt have time to read all the posts so sorry if this has been stated. One thing that needs to be clear, while a short race does give the lesser players a better chance the better players STILL have the advantage! By shortening the races you will get more players in because they feel like they can get a few rolls and beat anyone in a race to 3 once in a while. More players means more money in the pot which is good for everyone. One of the best tournaments I ever ran was a race to 3 looser breaks. Even when the lower players lost 3 to nothing at least they got to break 3 times and felt like they were a part of the match.

Better players always want the longer races so the law of averages is in their favor, but the reality is that shorter races will bring in more players and all in all make the tournament more successful in most cases.

pooltchr
06-04-2004, 06:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> ...bellyaching because I had to listen to someone who wasn't enlightened enough to see things exactly the way I do ...<hr /></blockquote>HAHAHAHA! Happens to me all the time! HAHAHAHA! <hr /></blockquote>

I know what you mean. If every player had to actually run a tournament once or twice before they could play in one, I think a lot of the whining would go away! (Well....maybe not...they are, after all, still pool players!)

Chris Cass
06-04-2004, 06:51 AM
hahahahaha Hi Pooltchr,

When after explaining the rules of the tourney. Jamie Bowman announces, "Complainers, don't come up to the counter. I don't want to hear it." I laugh everytime. LOL He's so funny. I love him like a lil brother.

Regards,

C.C.~~thinking of making a complaint form for the players. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Leviathan
06-04-2004, 07:55 AM
Quoting Chris Cass:

"The ones that want to excell end up playing in higher entry events to play better you must play with better players. The better players trying to get in these small events are just looking to steal."

I get you, Chris. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of regional tour tournaments here in the wilderness.

I'm starting to understand something you and Popcorn and others have said many times: you may have to gamble just to get good players to play with you. If you limit yourself to competing in little weekly tournaments you just wear your ass out playing mostly against opponents who can't show you much. If you're fortunate enough to get past the weaker players you get to play a couple of short races against the local lamb-killers: big deal.

AS

Chris Cass
06-04-2004, 09:08 AM
Hi Alan,

HAHAHAHA To your first post about keeping the straight face. Sometimes I'll say, Weight!, Naaa, BTW, do you know if they have the slide on tips at the counter? hahahaha

To this post, your last one. Now, I feel bad. You know there's alway the accustat tapes. Watching matches are a great way to play pros. Especially with slow mo and also pause. Man, watching a match with Jimmy Wetch shooting I was yelling at him. Jimmy, don't shoot that shot like that!! Sure enough, he scratched in the side and lost the chance to come back. I blame it on the Pred shaft.LOL Not really but the tapes are an excellent way of learning. I wore out a tape with Jonny Archer. I slow mo'd his break about 200 times in 2 days. I still don't break like him but, I know what his moves are to the T. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

Leviathan
06-04-2004, 09:51 AM
Well, I've been studying a tape of Johnny's pre-shot routine--all that lint collecting and chalk moving voodoo. A couple of the guys I play are gonna freak when I start doing that stuff to 'em. Oughtta be worth two games a set! Got to see you break sometime. I break like Karen Corr.

AS