PDA

View Full Version : Kick Shots - need help



dooziexx
06-11-2004, 10:44 AM
One of the weakest part of my game is kicking especially multi-rail kicks. I really need to improve on them. Are there any drills out there that can help me improve my kiciking ability. Thanks!!

Eric.
06-11-2004, 11:34 AM
Personally, I picked up alot from a good 3 cushion player. There are many "systems" out there that use the diamonds. I'm a firm believer in them, although some people will live and die by the 'feel' method. All the systems involve knowing the 'return tracks' of various shots. The idea is to know the return tracks and find out which track the OB lies on to make the hit. There is a degree of adjustment. You need to see if the table is playing 'long' or 'short'. This can be figured out in about 2 minutes by taking a few test kicks to see how much you need to adjust.


Eric >my 2 pennies

NH_Steve
06-11-2004, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dooziexx:</font><hr> One of the weakest part of my game is kicking especially multi-rail kicks. I really need to improve on them. Are there any drills out there that can help me improve my kiciking ability. Thanks!! <hr /></blockquote>Grady Mathews has an entire tape called 'Only Kicks'. He's got all kinds of systems -- including english systems for use when balls are blocking the natural kicking paths. I don't know if that is one of his 'out of print' tapes, but if you can find it, it will definitely give you lots to practice!

Try this 'Kicks' practice routine for fine-tuning your kicking skills:
1. Break open a rack of 9 balls
2. Instead of pocketing each ball in turn, you have to seek out kick shots starting with the 1-ball -- give yourself a point and drop the ball (whether you pocket it or not) if you hit it and then kick at the 2-ball and so on.
3. If you miss your kick, leave the ball up, but deduct a point.
4. Give yourself bonus points for multi-rail kicks (i.e. you get two points for a two rail kick, three points for three rails, etc), but you have to call your extra rails before you shoot to get the bonus! There is no penalty for getting the rail count wrong on a good hit -- just no bonus.
5. Give yourself another bonus point if you can call which side of your target ball you intend to hit, and then you successfully hit that side. Again, no penalty for hitting the 'wrong' side, just no bonus.
6. Double your score if you pocket the object ball on your kick!
7. Deduct 1 point if you fail to hit a rail after your hit.
8. Deduct 5 points for any pocket scratch! (For crying out loud, you've got to learn to avoid kicking into a dead scratch!)

Track your progress by comparing rack scores.

Try it with another player!!

Tell me how you like this -- I just invented it /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SecaucusFats
06-11-2004, 12:41 PM
Buy yourself a copy of "Win At Pocket Billiards" by Desmond Allen Ph.D. (This book was originally published as "One, Two, Three Rails And More",)

In it you will find the diamond system, and all manner of kicks (and banks) explained, simplified and diagrammed. Here is the ISBN #: ISBN 1-56625-163-X

The book lists for $12.95 (US). If you really want help with you kicks, get this book.

SF

Doctor_D
06-11-2004, 03:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> Buy yourself a copy of "Win At Pocket Billiards" by Desmond Allen Ph.D. (This book was originally published as "One, Two, Three Rails And More",)

In it you will find the diamond system, and all manner of kicks (and banks) explained, simplified and diagrammed. Here is the ISBN #: ISBN 1-56625-163-X

The book lists for $12.95 (US). If you really want help with you kicks, get this book.

SF <hr /></blockquote>


Good evening:

This is an excellent recommendation!

Dr. D.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

1Time
06-11-2004, 07:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dooziexx:</font><hr> One of the weakest part of my game is kicking especially multi-rail kicks. I really need to improve on them. Are there any drills out there that can help me improve my kiciking ability. Thanks!! <hr /></blockquote>

There's quite a difference between kicking to make a good hit, playing a safety, and pocketing a ball... especially with multiple rail kicks. What kind of kick shot are you primarily concerned with improving?

phil in sofla
06-15-2004, 04:36 PM
I have that book, and found, as some had posted on this board, that some of this guy's suggested kick lines not only didn't work, they didn't come CLOSE to working so that one could work on adjusting little things, like the speed or amount of running English (if any) to make a good hit.

Did you find any of the suggested lines way off yourself, and if so, did you figure out a corrected line?

I admit my stroke may not have been so good at the time I was trying them, and maybe should revisit the book now, but still...

Frank_Glenn
06-15-2004, 04:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> I have that book, and found, as some had posted on this board, that some of this guy's suggested kick lines not only didn't work, they didn't come CLOSE to working so that one could work on adjusting little things, like the speed or amount of running English (if any) to make a good hit.

Did you find any of the suggested lines way off yourself, and if so, did you figure out a corrected line?

I admit my stroke may not have been so good at the time I was trying them, and maybe should revisit the book now, but still...

<hr /></blockquote>

Dr. Que (Tom Rossman) has a series of 3 tapes that will teach you all you need to know avout banks and kicking. Cost about $100 or so, IIRC.

Pelican
06-15-2004, 08:32 PM
Hey Dooz, I have used books and tapes and they are good to get you started but the best thing is to get on the table and - like Nike says - just do it. I have spent a lot of time working on kicks to get myself out of safety situations in my 8 ball APA league. Use some of the little reinforcement sticky things so you can have repeatability and just set up a kick and work on it till you find the lane. Also note how one tip and two tips of side english affect what you can do. Once you find a lane that you have 'locked' in you can learn to make adjustment for when the balls are somewhat there but not quite. Keep working, it's a lot of fun, Pel /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SecaucusFats
06-15-2004, 09:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> I have that book, and found, as some had posted on this board, that some of this guy's suggested kick lines not only didn't work, they didn't come CLOSE to working so that one could work on adjusting little things, like the speed or amount of running English (if any) to make a good hit.

Did you find any of the suggested lines way off yourself, and if so, did you figure out a corrected line?

I admit my stroke may not have been so good at the time I was trying them, and maybe should revisit the book now, but still...

<hr /></blockquote>

Here is my take on it. Systems, all of them, are guidelines. In the real world, things like stroke, cloth, cushions, humidity, the condition of the balls, squirt and about another half a dozen variables enter the picture. This however does not negate the value of systems. Being able to understand and adapt them to the conditions is brought about only by practice and competition. IMHO, systems shorten the learning curve. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SF

Bob_Jewett
06-15-2004, 09:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dooziexx:</font><hr> One of the weakest part of my game is kicking especially multi-rail kicks.<hr /></blockquote>
Fortunately, several kick drills and explanations have just appeared in a most excellent printed magazine about pool. I think you can get a subscription elsewhere on this site.

Good authors to read for systems:
Robert Byrne
Walt Harris
Eddie Robin (harder to get, but excellent)
Jack Koehler

Bob_Jewett
06-15-2004, 09:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr>Here is my take on it. Systems, all of them, are guidelines. In the real world, things like stroke, cloth, cushions, humidity, the condition of the balls, squirt and about another half a dozen variables enter the picture. This however does not negate the value of systems. Being able to understand and adapt them to the conditions is brought about only by practice and competition. IMHO, systems shorten the learning curve. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SF
<hr /></blockquote>
I'm going to partly disagree with this one. If someone writes down a system, they ought to take the time to also explain the general ways to adjust for differnent conditions. Contrast the pitiful explanation of the corner-five system in Hoppe's "Billiards As It Should Be Played" with the far more complete explantion by Byrne.

One of my main complaints about Harris' Atlases is that there is almost no explanation of the details of the many, many systems he presents. Like, "Never try this on sticky cloth because the english is gone by the second cushion."

phil in sofla
06-17-2004, 02:04 PM
To be clear, I don't discount systems-- I play systems routinely. I rely on them for all my kicking, and like to augment the systems I know with new ones.I like, use and recommend most of the suggestions here (which are systems): Tom 'Dr. Cue' Rossman kick series from the Monk's series, Grady Matthews' 'Just Kicks' and some of his other system demonstrations, Eddie Parker's coverage of some of the same material, and Jimmy Reid's kicking system materials.

I was VERY excited by this guy's book, but when I tried some of the lines with the strokes he recommended, I wasn't getting CLOSE to hitting the kick. Finding that hard to believe, I tried making adjustments to either the stroke or the English applied, and it didn't help. For me, some of the things he says work, just don't. (Not saying all, or even most, but a sizable fraction didn't work in the slightest).

Ross
06-17-2004, 02:54 PM
You are right Phil - some of his kick diagrams are just wrong and the book is very poorly edited. Some of them work though. I think the book is somewhat popular because a lot of players want a small concise book explaining a limited number of useful kicks. So it is the only game in town that fits those criteria.

Personally, in competition, the only systems I really find that I can remember and that are really helpful are the three rail corner 5 system and the "minus two" system (I think that is what it is called). Also, I use a couple of simple reference kicks to extrapolate from- like shooting with 1 o'clock English from the corner to 1" below the side pocket goes to the far corner pocket on most tables.

Chris Cass
06-17-2004, 05:08 PM
Hi Dooziexx,

I use the mirror image sys and the paralell sys. If I need 3 rails I just add one to the parallel. Many think it's too complicated and it really isn't. That's jusy my humble opinion though. There's a lot of good material out there for one to grasp it better. I happen to like what Jack Koehler (sp?) has to say.

I'm also curious of what the Billiard Workout Book has on the subject. I know this sounds like a plug but I'll be checking it out at the Open. I know some of this material is costly, like lessons. I don't see it that way though. When you concider it.

Regards,

C.C.

Vagabond
06-17-2004, 06:49 PM
Because we `Red Necks` like to kick the derreaire.LOL
Really,I am above average in Kick shots.Cheers
Vagabond

SecaucusFats
06-17-2004, 07:12 PM
You're doing all the right things.

Like you, I have a lot of different books and videos: Dr. Cue, Grady, Don "Preacher" Feeney, Jimmy Reid, Fast Eddie Parker, Bert Kinister, all four Billiard Atlas volumes, Byrne, and so forth. I've found that most books and tapes have some flaws, some will put me to sleep quicker than narcolepsy, and some are just plain God-awful. Having said that, if I can get one or two gems from a book or tape, then it was worth the money.

Eventually all the good stuff becomes programmed into my game and I discard what does not work. I believe that that which is often refered to as "feel" is in fact the manifestation of a state where the player has internalized the knowledge and skill.. in other words, the player has become hard-wired for the shots. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SF

tateuts
06-18-2004, 09:30 AM
I was in the same boat. I really worked hard on the kicking game for the last year and now it's up to speed. I use masse kicks so I rarely have to use multiple rail kicks unless it affords a better angle to re-hook my opponent.

I would start off practicing all manner of one rail kicks, trying to hit the object ball dead center with just a couple of balls on the table. Staying in the middle of the cue ball is most accurate. The main thing is to alternate rails, so you're shooting short and long into the rails at different angles.


Once you have the ball hitting center and you're confident you can make the clean hit, then I would work on speed. Here's one that comes up all the time - a basic kick safety, hitting the cue ball with follow (which will stop it if you hit it full, aiming) the object ball at the side pocket. I don't know what level you're at, so I'm going to post the basic shots as well.


START(
%AF8M9%Ph6Z1%WD4O6%Xg1Y9%[W4C9%\G7M2%]q4N7%^X0C5%eB4a3

)END

Practicing the speed is the big one on this shot.

Here's the next kick I would practice - it comes up all the time too. You want to hit it with enough speed to try to separate the two balls. What's good about this shot is it often ends up hooking your opponent:

START(
%AC7N8%Pp4M7%WE1N3%XX0C6%[Y2Z9%\D9O2%]r5N9%^X9[4%eB4a3%_Y1D1
%`d7H6%ao6M2
)END


Now, here's the 3rd most useful kick shot IMO, now hitting to 1/3 of the object ball closest to the end rail:

START(
%Af0E9%Po1O3%WV4Z7%Xe0F9%[g0D7%\g3C8%]g9D2%^n8N6%eB4a3%_r7N8
%`n2K5%af9E7%bD2M4%cI6Q5%dU6[0
)END

Again, speed is the big issue - perfect speed to separate the balls.

Now, you can go to the thin hit safes - here's one of my favorite ones. These are the most difficult but they are a true defensive weapon. On this one you thin hit the one on the side closest to the cue ball, the balls roll safe:

START(
%AD2F7%EO6X5%FG7O3%GI6O9%JS4M1%P\1O6%WI6D2%X[2N7%]M8D9%^E2F3
%eB4a3%bD1Q1%cE1G3%dH7C7
)END

Here's a typical mutiple rail kick to practice, again using proper speed to separate the balls. Follow keeps the cue ball at the upper end of the table:

START(
%Am5E6%El2H7%FG7O3%GI6O9%J^3R1%PU3Y6%Wr3G3%XW6X2%[Q2K9%\l6F0
%eB4a3%_n8D5%`p2C7%ar6F5
)END

If you can master those shots, you will have some defensive and offensive weapons to use in any match.

Chris

dooziexx
06-18-2004, 10:29 AM
Wow, Thanks Chris and to all of you for your input.

Frank_Glenn
06-18-2004, 11:48 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Now, you can go to the thin hit safes - here's one of my favorite ones. These are the most difficult but they are a true defensive weapon. On this one you thin hit the one on the side closest to the cue ball, the balls roll safe:
<hr /></blockquote>

All these shots show centerball. I think you need some english to pull some of these off. Bottom (draw) is needed on the one I show below to get the curve off the rail.

Here's one I like:
START(
%AC9S3%EO6X5%FG7O3%GI6O9%JS4M1%Pg1S4%WK5D4%Xe1R4%e B4a3%bD1Q1
%cF1F6%dJ3C5
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html

Ross
06-18-2004, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Staying in the middle of the cue ball is most accurate.
<hr /></blockquote>

I agree with most of your post, but I don't know about this part Chris. I used to use center ball (well vertical axis) for short to medium distance 1-rail kicks, but I switched a few months ago to using maybe a 1/4 inch or so of running english. I think it has improved my consistency at hitting the ob full when that is my goal. With running english, I think the rebound angle off the rail is less affected by differences in cb speed or slight errors in strike point on the cb. Also, a firmly hit cb with a bit of running english tends to more closely follow the angle in = angle out relationship, which is easier to visualize.

These are just impressions though - I haven't formally tested any of this.

tateuts
06-18-2004, 04:14 PM
Agree, some players will find it easier to kick with english, particularly on certain shots. Actually, some players have a difficult time not putting unwanted english on the cue ball.

However, a clean center ball stroke is still the most accurate because the kick can be measured. With english, feel and speed become more important - not always a good thing under pressure..

Here's a shot I always use english on because I find it easier to aim:

START(
%Ag9F2%BR3R2%Pj3F0%[g7D4%\i4E5%]S7Q4%^f8D0%eB4a3

)END

To Doozie,

If you have a very difficult multiple rail kick that you don't think you can make, don't forget to just take your opportunity to mess up the table and give your opponent ball in hand. It often assures you of another turn at the table. I also practice soft masse shots regularly (with the cue at about a 30 - 40 degree angle) and they are a life saver.

Chris

tateuts
06-18-2004, 04:21 PM
That's a good one.

Two weeks ago I was at the pool room playing and I was hopelessly locked up. I played this shot successfully with right hand draw. The cue ball bent around the blockers and made a clean hit on the two. I was paying attention to the table and didn't realize a handful of players at the bar were watching until they all started laughing.

START(
%Ac1Y4%BQ1Z7%CS2Z1%D^3O5%EI6Q8%F\8W0%Ik1K0%Pd7Z5%W O3Z1%XC7Y0
%[r3V2%\e7Z3%eB4a3%bD0X9%c[6U1%ds0U4
)END
Chris

Frank_Glenn
06-18-2004, 07:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>Two weeks ago I was at the pool room playing and I was hopelessly locked up. I played this shot successfully with right hand draw. The cue ball bent around the blockers and made a clean hit on the two. I was paying attention to the table and didn't realize a handful of players at the bar were watching until they all started laughing.
<hr /></blockquote>

Bending the ball is always fun. Especially when your opponent is snobby about having "locked you up".

Rod
06-18-2004, 09:40 PM
Sometimes I just like to fool around. Well don't we all at times? lol Here is a shot that shows how balls can be broken out especially if there are no other routes. I set it up as a fun stroke type trick shot. But it useful to know. Vary the angle if needed but it is close. A good stroke makes the 5 but a real good stroke comes in well before the 5. I think it's handy to know. That stuff comes up all the time, as you guys pointed out earlier. If the ball bends to quick and runs into or behind the 1 then it needs to be shot harder.

wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html )

START(
%A[6O6%BL7P8%Cm7O4%DL7N1%ED1Z5%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM4P3%IL7O 4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pm6U8%U[6D4%V[4[0%YC4O7%Zu5O4
%eB4b3%_E7Z1%`Z8L2%al7O5
)END

As far as kicks if it hasn't been shown, I love this kick. I may try to make it or just skim the ball for a safe. It depends on the table layout.

START(
%AD8H9%BM3X0%CH4S4%DI2K8%ET5N8%FO6S6%GK8Z2%HV4D3%I Z2R6%P`6Q4
%UJ9D3%V`4Q7%WD1Z5%XD6I8%YD3F2%ZJ4C3%bp9N3%cK2I8%d C4F3
)END

Rod

tateuts
06-19-2004, 09:43 AM
Rod,

Thanks for the kick shot - got any more? I learned something from that one.

Here's a pretty common push out for me - I like pushing to this kick shot and almost always end up getting the shot back and pulling off the safe. Main thing is to make sure you hit a rail on these types of kicks.

START(
%AI2I2%Bh0F4%DU9N3%E]6G0%F_5X0%GT7W8%HN0F7%IS1E5%Pn8W2%UE1J7
%Vm6V7%Wp8N8%XJ5I6%bJ6E8%cG8I3%dD4I7
)END

Rod
06-19-2004, 11:35 AM
Chris

It's allways a matter of table layout. That kick is good here but if the one has to much trafic to avoid, it makes the shot less desireable. I sure you know. I always shoot the kick I diagramed with running english. It is more predictable. If it was off the rail farther I might come in from behind if there was a blocker. The main thing here is not to hit it fat and run into the 4 ball. There is a pretty good margin for error in this case.

START(
%AF2I2%BM3X0%CJ9S5%DG9M9%ED9T4%FY7O8%GL9U6%HV4D3%I Z2R6%P`6Q4
%UL3D2%V`4Q7%YD1F8%ZJ4C3%_o3N9%`[6L9%aG3I6%bD7R3%cE3I8%dC3G0
)END

Most anything two rails around the corner can be a life saver. I learned this early on from playing so much golf and it's good to know playing one pocket.

Here is another that I like but not as well. The one ball is a real big ball from here. As shown it hits past the side or before is ok to. Some will just kick one rail but that IMO is a sell out and it does no good to make the ball. If you don't sell out your most likely gonna get hid by your opponent. Takes some practice but kicking three rails from different points at this big ball is good to have in the bag of tricks. On this shot I think error on the fat side. It's used a fair amount playing golf and of course playing billiards after contact with first object ball.

START(
%AH5Y5%Br4P1%Cb2S9%DV5V4%EW2Z2%FN5I0%GH6S0%He5M0%I P6Y2%P_0Z3
%UC7V3%VN6C0%WO1C6%X_7Z9%YF2Z6%ZC6W4%eB0a3%_n9M5%` _5C5%aI0X3
%bL3Y9%cH9Y7%dF0[4
)END

Here is how I look at the basic shot. This should go three rails to the side. The one is in the way. Tables vary, I've even seen soooker tables with flat faced rails, this shot won't even come close.

START(
%AI4X8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM3O9%FK6P1%GK6N8%HK8O4%I L7O4%PS7Z3
%UU1]4%VI3B1%WG2[3%XC5R0%YZ5D0%ZG4[2%eA9a6%_C7Q1%`E2L2%aH8C1
)END

Rod

Chopstick
06-21-2004, 02:48 PM
I used to have the same problem. I could bank but I could not kick at all. I bought Grady Matthew's tape "Only Kicks" off of the Internet. I was very impressed. I later went to him and took lessons and had him show me personally. I think his system is the best to start with because it teaches you standard starting points to calibrate your stroke with. So, if I have an established starting line where I know the ball will travel with my stroke I can adjust from there.

Buddy Hall further refines this concept in his video "The Clock System". Everybody's stroke is different. That means the way the cue ball acts when you stroke it is different from everybdy else's. He represents the cue ball as the face of a clock. He then says that you have to find out where your first number is meaning that hitting the cue ball at 12 oclock will not go to exactly the same place as when anyone else hits it because all strokes are different.

This is what gets confusing when you get into systems because the outcome of a kick is so sensitive to the way you cue the ball. I started with a standard set of kicking lines and practiced them a little every day. And now I have earned the title of, and I quote "the luckiest kick shot shooter in town".

BeanDiesel
06-21-2004, 09:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> Buy yourself a copy of "Win At Pocket Billiards" by Desmond Allen Ph.D. (This book was originally published as "One, Two, Three Rails And More",)

In it you will find the diamond system, and all manner of kicks (and banks) explained, simplified and diagrammed. Here is the ISBN #: ISBN 1-56625-163-X

The book lists for $12.95 (US). If you really want help with you kicks, get this book.

SF <hr /></blockquote>

http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PROFRAME&amp;PROD_ID=355708

$8.89 + $1.40 s&amp;h.