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View Full Version : How much english can you use before miscue



ras314
06-11-2004, 11:46 AM
I've recently playing around with one of those training balls and trying to see how far to the edge I can get without miscueing. After carefully shaping, scuffing, and chaulking using two different tips I wind up with about 13 1/3 mm from the center cb to the calk mark.

So checked the Jacksonville exp. notes and looks like they got what was called 19 to 20 mm offset when miscues started. While using Iron Willy.

Went back and measured from the tip center to where the tip contacted the cb, added this to the 13 1/3 mm distance and wind up with about 17 2/3 mm offset from center ball to center cuetip.

Used this setup

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg6O7%WO8C7%Xf6O1%Y D1G5%ZN7C5
%[q8D3%\B9G8%^l5_1%eC4a4
)END

Anybody else wasted time with this sort of nonsense? Might be a way to get a quantative measure of how sorry my stroke is. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Popcorn
06-11-2004, 11:55 AM
Can't say I have ever measured it but many, mis-cues occure not because you are too far out on the cue ball but because of a bad stroke.

ras314
06-11-2004, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Can't say I have ever measured it but many, mis-cues occure not because you are too far out on the cue ball but because of a bad stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

I think I can miscue with a center ball hit and level cue sometimes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But it would seem comparing the amount of english (offset from center) different players can use reliably might give an idea how good or bad a stroke is. Far as I can tell the stroke is more important than the type of tip.

Rod
06-11-2004, 12:39 PM
You can hit just outside the circle of a centenial ball, that is testy. Here is a shot, set up the ball to cut in the corner with inside. If you just miss the ball, the c/b will take this route shown give or take. It depends on conditions and new or used cloth. You'll need that much to cut in the ball or hit it at warp speed. It's a medium soft shot, more spin, less speed. That's my 2 bits. lol

Rod

START(
%A[8]7%BB6\3%CB6\0%DB8[9%EB3\2%FB0\1%GB3\2%HB3[7%IC7O5%Pg4N9
%UV5[2%VC3M8%YD0N1%Zh9N9%eA4b2
)END

Troy
06-11-2004, 02:33 PM
I've never bothered to measure the tip off-set, but I can certainly get more CB action using back-hand english.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> I've recently playing around with one of those training balls and trying to see how far to the edge I can get without miscueing. After carefully shaping, scuffing, and chaulking using two different tips I wind up with about 13 1/3 mm from the center cb to the calk mark.

So checked the Jacksonville exp. notes and looks like they got what was called 19 to 20 mm offset when miscues started. While using Iron Willy.

Went back and measured from the tip center to where the tip contacted the cb, added this to the 13 1/3 mm distance and wind up with about 17 2/3 mm offset from center ball to center cuetip.

Used this setup

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg6O7%WO8C7%Xf6O1%Y D1G5%ZN7C5
%[q8D3%\B9G8%^l5_1%eC4a4
)END

Anybody else wasted time with this sort of nonsense? Might be a way to get a quantative measure of how sorry my stroke is. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

ras314
06-11-2004, 03:39 PM
I don't have access to centinials, but there is no way I can get close to the circle on the super amerith pro circle.

Spent a while trying that cut or bank or whatever it is. Occasionally hit the corner pocket long rail tit but never made the ball. Diamond pro with pro cut pockets. Again around 18 mm or a little less offset which I guess is less than 1 1/2 tips. CB would hit around the side pocket on a close miss.

I've know several people to claim they can make that shot and only one that could in a reasonable number of tries.

Ross
06-11-2004, 03:46 PM
I think 14 mm from center (or 9/16 inches or 1/4 ball width) is the max, regardless of stroke. The distance is determine by the coefficient of friction between the chalked cue tip and the ball.

The 14 mm is measured from the center of the cue ball to the contact point (chalk mark) on the cue ball, not from center to the aim point of the cue. The latter distance is a function of cue tip width and curvature. The former is not.

ras314
06-11-2004, 03:55 PM
Troy, you might be interested to know that the two tips I use are a talisman soft pigskin and a wb hard. If anything I get better spin with the hard WB, both on 314 shafts. Probably means I need to get a stroke.

Originally intended to use the hard tip to break and the soft to shoot with. Now like the hard better and suspect it would last for years if I didn't break with it!

ras314
06-11-2004, 04:13 PM
That is about the max I can get from the chalk mark to the center. A little difficult to measure.

I'm not really sure what is meant by miscue. I get less spin sometimes while hitting the cb in the same spot and at the same elevation angle. To me this means the tip has to be slipping on the cb and is a miscue wheither the ferrule slaps the cb or not. And it seems to be related to the quality of stroke.

Ross
06-11-2004, 04:40 PM
Interesting. If you are hitting on the cue ball equator with a relatively level cue, the amount of english (side spin/forward speed ratio) should be totally determined by strike point offset, assuming no miscue. Of course, the slower the hit the more effect english will have when rebounding off the cushion. The contact time between cue and cueball is only about .001 sec, so I don't think there is any "partial slipping" phenomenon.

Of course the "center" that you are measuring your offset from is defined by the direction your cue is moving when you strike the ball. So if you sometimes have a bit of sideways swoop in your stroke, your measured offset may not be exactly correct.

Rod
06-11-2004, 05:00 PM
ras,

I don't know about Aramith balls but it is extreme. Better off not to go there unless there is no other way and your comfortable with your stroke. It's that last unit that really zings the ball.

The cut shot is an example on a close miss. Most will miss on the thin side because of squirt, shooting to hard and I feel slow and smooth with low left is the countermeasure. For many you actually aim at about 1/4 ball and let the swerve bring the c/b to the contact point. It is shot much slower than people think, the extra english (note on a close miss it can hit a diamond before the side). You need that zing to actually kick the ball in rail first. Table doesn't matter if it hugs the rail as it should.

We use to shoot this alternating pockets, right then left. My record is 5 to the right and 4 to the left, that's nine alternating pocket shots without a miss. It's been a while but I'd still make a lot if I practiced them a bit. Not like I need 5 trys or something. I shot it some time back for a guy that asked how to make the shot. I made it first try, lol I stopped while I was ahead. Here is another back cut, I won't claim to make it very often. I did make in on a hill game for a few bucks last year. In this case the ball was barely off the rail but the shot is set up frozen to the rail.

START(
%AC7V5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%Pl6Y4
%UC9U4%Vm9Y4%eA6b0
)END

Or here is another, measure just over a ball width from the edge of the corner pocket. Shown here is cut to the right but it can be back cut obviously. We spent about an hour shooting this a while back. My buddy makes it with center right and I use low right. Either way works, just a difference in aim.

START(
%AC8X3%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM6P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%Pg9Z7
%UD5Y7%Vm3Z7%eC3b1
)END

Boys will play!

Rod

Chris Cass
06-11-2004, 10:08 PM
Is that with chalk? HAHAHAHA

Regards,

C.C.~~just razzing ras. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ras314
06-11-2004, 10:24 PM
Oh. Does chalk work better than the chaulk I've been using? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

ras314
06-11-2004, 10:34 PM
Rod,

I am impressed. The few times I've seen those type shots made the ob did run tight down the rail. Believe I'd have more luck with a bank or some weird double kiss.

ras314
06-11-2004, 10:48 PM
I've been trying to keep the speed so that the cb stops near the head rail or just drops in the pocket. Rarely can get the chalk mark centered on the equator and a very small difference in offset does have a relativly large effect.

I suspect keeping the tip moving in a straight line is part of what I mean by a good stroke. The feel of the hit seems to be a good clue.

Rod
06-12-2004, 12:42 AM
Yes well in a game there is only one chance. The percentage of making it goes down quite a bit. It's not like we have shot it several times to dial in our stroke. It will bank one rail and it is difficult to play safe. I have some like that I practiced playing a safe. You give up a shot but the c/b is left long and near or on the head rail.

Rod

Chris Cass
06-12-2004, 04:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> Oh. Does chalk work better than the chaulk I've been using? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Ras,

Are you picking on my spelling? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif You know I spelled it that way the first time I wrote about it but soon found out after I found a box of it at work. So, you see I do try to get it right. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yes, Chalk is the key and I see so many that forget to chalk and wait for that beautiful sound in which makes me cringe. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'd say about 1/4 tip out of the size of a quarter is it for me. The softer the tip the further out one might be able to go. Don't try that with a Sumo. Maybe a LaPro?

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ras314
06-12-2004, 09:38 AM
Chris,

I try not to pick on anybody's spelling other than my own, that usually gives me enough amusment. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

1/4 tip outside a quarter would be extreme for me, if you are talking about where the chalk mark is. The 14 mm Ross mentions does appear to be max.

I have one cue with a LePro, far as I can tell it is more prone to miscue than is the hard layered tip. Not a 314 shaft though so isn't a good comparison. Kind of have the impression that the flexibility of the shaft makes some difference.

Frank_Glenn
06-12-2004, 12:12 PM
Take a striped ball and set it up with the stripe vertical (that's like this | ). The center of the tip on the edge of the stripe is more than enough english, too much for most shots. Outside that edge you are flirting with a miscue, I don't care what tip or chalk you use. YMMV