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UTAddb
06-14-2004, 02:07 PM
I was playing in a qualifier for Jr. nationals at a bowling alley, needless to say the tables were simply terrible. I got put on the worse table in the room despite me trying to get them to let us play on one of the many other available tables. One shot, the CB should have stopped about middle table and rolled an extra 4 feet right into the cornewr pocket when I was on the 9. This table had a massive downhill slope. Anyway, it was towards the end of the match and I had broken and ran the first 5 balls. I get down on the 6 and as I'm getting down the CB rolled forward about an inch. I told my opponent what happened and apparently he wasn't even watching. He called over the BCA ref who at first gave me a foul. I asked how I could get a foul without even taking a shot!? Another ref comes over and we're arguing for awhile. Finally one of them suggests re-racking and before I can even open my mouth my opponent sweeps away the balls and the TD racks them. I had 3 balls left with perfect position and layout. I break again and scratch. My opponent makes a ball and hits a 3-9 combo. My break n run turns into a combo against me. I still won the match by a lot but I was extremely pissed. Was this really the right call?

Barbara
06-14-2004, 02:16 PM
If the equipment is truly off as you said, you and your opponent should stop the match and call over a ref, explain the situation, and ask to be put on a different table. Show him how the table's rolling off, too.

I have no idea why the ref would immediately asses a foul on you unless there is something you're conveniently leaving out.

You really should assess the table conditions before the match starts.

Barbara

Rod
06-14-2004, 02:26 PM
BCA rule

3.31 BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY
If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves “by itself,” the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket “by itself” after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue. If an object ball drops into a pocket “by itself” as a player shoots at it, so that the cue ball passes over the spot the ball had been on, unable to hit it, the cue ball and object ball are to be replaced to their positions prior to the stroke, and the player may shoot again. Any other object balls disturbed on the stroke are also to be replaced to their original positions before the shooter replays.

If the table rolled off as bad as you say it should have been deemed unfit for play. It doesn't meet BCA standards, the BCA refs should have known that.

3.1 TABLES, BALLS, EQUIPMENT
All games described in these rules are designed for tables, balls and equipment meeting the standards prescribed in the BCA Equipment Specifications.

Probably rookies, I wonder how the place ever got a sanctioned event? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

BCA Link (http://www.bca-pool.com/play/)

Rod

Popcorn
06-14-2004, 02:41 PM
Of course not, but what are you going to do. You have people running things that don't have a clue. Welcome to competitive pool.

Bob_Jewett
06-14-2004, 03:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UTAddb:</font><hr>(rerack on a self-moving cue ball) Was this really the right call? <hr /></blockquote>
No, you play the cue ball from its settled location.

Of course the TD should have paid more attention to the condition of the equipment. Unfortunately, tournaments are usually run by volunteers, and it's not useful to demand perfection.

How can you make things better? Try being an official yourself. Learn the rules. Act as a referee. Run tournaments. Volunteer. I went to the 1980 World Championships intending to have a relaxed week spectating, but they were short of referees, and I reffed 24 matches in 8 days, including one that took 3.5 hours. It didn't seem to bother them that I had never really reffed before -- how hard could it be? I got a better-than-front-row seat for matches between players like Joe Balsis, Irving Crane, Jean Balukas, Cisero Murphy, Richie Florence and Lou Butera. All it took was putting my hand up at the right time. And only one player punched me in the face, probably by accident.

Frank_Glenn
06-14-2004, 05:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
All it took was putting my hand up at the right time. And only one player punched me in the face, probably by accident.
<hr /></blockquote>
Jean, right?
Frank
www.frankglenn.com (http://www.frankglenn.com)

Bob_Jewett
06-14-2004, 05:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr> "And only one player punched me in the face, probably by accident. "
Jean, right?
Frank
<hr /></blockquote>
No, it was Lou Butera. Sometimes he moves fast, and at 14.1, I get to where I need to be to see fouls.

almer
06-14-2004, 06:06 PM
My team was playing in the vnea in vegas acouple weeks ago,my teamate broke the balls,he made the black,before it went all the way in the pocket he picked it up to respotit.Was this a foul?

Barbara
06-14-2004, 06:27 PM
Yes, it is. Unsportsmanlike conduct for interference with a moving ball.

Barbara

Rod
06-14-2004, 06:29 PM
Well your never suppose to touch a moving ball. You'd have to check with VNEA for specific rules. Did he scratch also?
Here is a link to their rules. VNEA Rules (http://www.baydynamic.com/palmar/rules.htm)

Rod

almer
06-14-2004, 06:52 PM
I know what the ruling was in vegas and just wondered what other people thought.

almer
06-14-2004, 06:56 PM
The ball was already in the pocket and he picked it out so he did not need a ref to open the table,so he said.We all acknowledged that he should not have done it,but is it a foul /

Bob_Jewett
06-14-2004, 07:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote almer:</font><hr> My team was playing in the vnea in vegas acouple weeks ago,my teamate broke the balls,he made the black,before it went all the way in the pocket he picked it up to respotit.Was this a foul? <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, but it is one of several common fouls that are often overlooked. Players who only learn the rules by watching others are likely to be surprised when someone who knows the real rules tries to enforce them.

Another: picking the cue ball up after the final ball is pocketed but the cue ball has not stopped rolling.

Another: accidently touching a ball ("cue ball fouls only") and putting it back without asking the non-shooter.

Another: placing chalk on the rail for a bank target.

Another: jacking up when the cue ball is very close to an object ball thinking that this gives immunity to a double hit.

Another: arranging the order of the balls in the rack at nine ball to gain an advantage.

Frank_Glenn
06-14-2004, 07:17 PM
<hr /></blockquote>
No, it was Lou Butera. Sometimes he moves fast, and at 14.1, I get to where I need to be to see fouls. <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, machine gun lou. I have seen him in the Virtual Pool game shooting very fast. I can see how this would happen (by accident).

almer
06-14-2004, 07:28 PM
It was originally ruled a foul by the referee in our area.He gave opposing player ball in hand,he did not get out ,my player ran out,10-6 us.The referee thought it over,asked another ref,who wasn't sure either,called for head ref,he says just so he would be sure in case it came up again.The head ref said it is absolutely not a foul.We were in the final 17-24 on b side,in the fourth round,had just had 3 ero's to take a 3 point lead with all the momentom,25 minutes after the fact the three of them come over and stop the match.The head ref Cecil i beleive says the first ref made a bad call,we need to play that game over.We strongly object,we say we were the team wronged,we should have a choice,we just want to finish our match,go away.He insists we play over,my guy loses 10-7,we lose our focus,lose the match by 8 balls.Has anyone heard of such a rule?when we complained later all we got was why dont you become a ref.What we said was if the ref had dought why did he not ask before he made a ruling.

SPetty
06-14-2004, 07:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> ...several common fouls that are often overlooked.

Another: arranging the order of the balls in the rack at nine ball to gain an advantage.<hr /></blockquote>Hi Bob,

We may need to start a new thread on this, but I just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Are you saying it's a foul to rack the nine ball rack in a specific order? Can you site a rule?

Bob_Jewett
06-14-2004, 07:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> ...several common fouls that are often overlooked.

Another: arranging the order of the balls in the rack at nine ball to gain an advantage.<hr /></blockquote>Hi Bob,

We may need to start a new thread on this, but I just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Are you saying it's a foul to rack the nine ball rack in a specific order? Can you site a rule? <hr /></blockquote>
The rule says "random"; it does not say, "in a specific order to gain advantage in play." At Cardiff in 2002, they racked randomly and at least one player was very upset that they didn't rack the balls the way he wanted.

Bob_Jewett
06-14-2004, 07:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote almer:</font><hr> It was originally ruled a foul by the referee in our area.... after the fact the three of them come over and stop the match. ... says the first ref made a bad call,we need to play that game over.<hr /></blockquote>
This is a bad call. The fundamental rule of pool rules is that once another shot starts, the game continues. There are no call-backs. You decide the ruling before any more shots are taken, and once a decision has been reached, it sticks.

SPetty
06-14-2004, 07:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> The rule says "random"; it does not say, "in a specific order to gain advantage in play."<hr /></blockquote>But it's a foul? A ball-in-hand foul? Have you ever called it? Has anyone ever seen it called as a foul?

As a side note, doesn't TD Steve Tipton arrange the balls exactly the same way when he's racking for the WPBA women?

Mr Ingrate
06-14-2004, 08:05 PM
Susan,

You are absolutely right. I've seen him do it and I believe it was to ensure a "perfect" rack (even with the Sardo) so the balls would be on the table in the order the table was originally "trained." Of course, they put the 9 on the spot and not the 1 with the Sardo, so it seems that exceptions CAN, and are, made to racking rules (the 1-Ball should be on the spot according to the rules).

Rod
06-14-2004, 08:33 PM
I've never seen a foul called but then remember their not playing bca rules, it's Texas Express.

Bob_Jewett
06-14-2004, 09:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> The rule says "random"; it does not say, "in a specific order to gain advantage in play."<hr /></blockquote>But it's a foul? A ball-in-hand foul? Have you ever called it? Has anyone ever seen it called as a foul?

As a side note, doesn't TD Steve Tipton arrange the balls exactly the same way when he's racking for the WPBA women? <hr /></blockquote>
I think the appropriate call is unsportsmanlike conduct. I haven't seen it called, just enforced.

The WPBA ignores or has modified several rules in their tournaments. I think that in the absence of fair random racks, the order should be specified at nine ball.

Bob_Jewett
06-14-2004, 09:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> I've never seen a foul called but then remember their not playing bca rules, it's Texas Express. <hr /></blockquote>
If it is Texas Express, you can tell by:

Flip, don't lag for break.
May push out after a foul on the break (rare!).
If two balls are moved accidently, it is a foul (no referee).
If the shooter leaves the table while a ball is hanging, and the ball drops within five seconds (the normal waiting time), the ball doesn't count.
An accidental miscue on a jump shot is not a foul.

These are the main differences that Ron Shepard found when he did a comparison a few years ago.

Rod
06-14-2004, 10:21 PM
About the only rule that comes up is about the jump shot. Possibly moving two balls, but the others are rare indeed.

Once in a great while the ball drop is disputed, good to know.

Sid_Vicious
06-14-2004, 10:53 PM
I have to agree with you totally SPetty. As long as the 9 and one is in the rack where it's supposed to be, the rules are met. If I'm racked with a preferred layout of my opponent's choosing when they are racking(themselves, not dictated to an independent racker), then I give a sh$t, and until the rules of 9-ball are made more definitive, that's the way I'm going to continue to do it. Hell, it's 9-ball, a loose and free wheeling style game. Sorry Bob, the rules aren't pointed enough for the rack pattern, just the way I see it...sid

UTAddb
06-14-2004, 11:27 PM
I told them the table was terrible before we started and after the bad call, and they relentlessly wanted us to play on this pos table.

Rod
06-14-2004, 11:43 PM
File a complaint with bca explaining what happened. Not to dispute the match but about the refs and the establishment. If they don't know, nothing is likely to change.

Rod

Chris Cass
06-15-2004, 06:53 AM
Well you know Sid,

So what if you give the breaker, BIH? He has it anyway. LOL Even in 8 ball. It's suppose to be random but the 8 has to be in the middle and of course a strip and a solid on the corners. Doesn't leave much for random, does it? I agree with you buddy.

Regards,

C.C.

RedHell
06-15-2004, 07:38 AM
Actually Chris,

If you give ball in hand on a racked group, you can play a safety by skinning the one with inside english leaving the CB either in the rack or behind it. That forces a rail kick in a tight group of ball and is very likely to be a foul and the second one of the game.

Often this is a easy way to win a game quickly...

Chris Cass
06-15-2004, 07:42 AM
Hi Red,

I'm confused. Could you use the WEI table to show me?

Regards,

C.C.

RedHell
06-15-2004, 07:47 AM
Kinda like this:

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JB5B2
%KB9\2%LB5C1%MA8\6%NC1\2%OC1B4%PP9R5%WP1P3%XP7Q5%Y N4D8%ZO6N9
%[K0M7%\M9C7%eB1a5
)END

or lower to the foot rail like so:

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JB5B2
%KB9\2%LB5C1%MA8\6%NC1\2%OC1B4%PP9R5%WP1P3%XP7Q5%Y N4D8%ZO6N9
%[D5N4%\M9C7%eB1a5
)END

Chris Cass
06-15-2004, 08:40 AM
Hi RedHell,

I was talking about 8 ball but in the case of 9 ball I see your point. I don't find playing safe off the rack a great option. Even if the three foul rule was applied. I'd just look into the rack and pick out the ball patern frozen to the one ball and send it up table and giving up the second foul. It would force my opponent to run a difficult rack of play me safe again. I'm sure I'd get a hit if not the first time, the second. I also think that it would be to the breakers best interests to break the rack in the normal fasion. jmho Then, we'd have a long set no doubt. Tit for Tat kind of thing. I call it One pocket 9 ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif It's funny now having played One pocket. I laugh when someone plays me safe. I think, hummm, do you really think your going to win a safe game with a One pocket player? hahha Just a mental thought but fun nonetheless. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ6O5%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JB5B2
%KB9\2%LB5C1%MA8\6%NC1\2%OC1B4%PP9R5%WP1P3%XP7Q5%Y N4D8%ZO6N9
%[D5N4%\M9C7%]H8O5%^C3O5%eB4`7
)END
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

or,

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JB5B2
%KB9\2%LB5C1%MA8\6%NC1\2%OC1B4%PI8N3%UU0D4%VL5M2%W P1P3%XP7Q5
%YN4D8%ZO6N9%[K0M7%\M9C7%]K6M8%^J3N5%eC0`9%_r5M1%`\9F1%aU7C8
)END


Regards,

C.C.

RedHell
06-15-2004, 09:10 AM
Chris,

Obviously, playing 3 fouls against a player of your caliber is hard to do. And you are right, if your opponent contact the one ball and make a legal shot on the second or third attempt, it becomes a very tough rack of 9-ball to play.

But if you're playing a player of lower skill, often they will attempt to contact the one and foul, allowing you to play pretty much the same shot again or to push the one on the head rail and rool the CB behind the stack again. Making it a tough third attempt.

As I'm not a player that run racks consistently, if I'm playing a opponent of my skills or a little above, the chances of him getting good hit on the one are slim, hence increasing my chances of winning when compare to my chances of running out of the break.

I have found that at the lower skill, if this is done against me, the second attempt is better used if I just break open the rack and concede the foul. It is then up to my opponent to run the rack and as I said this is not consistent at my level.

Bob_Jewett
06-15-2004, 11:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>
Once in a great while the ball drop is disputed, good to know. <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, but in my opinion, the Texas Express rule is broken. Results on the table should not be determined by where the shooter is standing. If they are, the rules need to define what it means for the player to leave the table. What if the player says, "I just went over to my chair for more powder."

JohnnyP
06-15-2004, 02:20 PM
Bob: You have mail.

JohnnyP
06-15-2004, 10:17 PM
Bob:

Check your other email addresses.

Chris Cass
06-16-2004, 06:57 AM
Hi UTAddb,

First let me say I haven't read any of the posts but your first one.

I feel your pain about inferior equipment. When I shot in Vegas 2002 we had like 100 something cb's replaced (plug balls) that rolled off. That didn't mean everything was good. There were more tables but not more cb's. Not to mention the tables were not all perfectly set-up either. Remember, they have so many guys and so little time to get in and get it done.

There are only so many ref's too and many players that use them like pawns if, you get my drift. No matter what you can count on this. You and your opponent have to shoot on the same equipment. So, both have the same chance and that evens itself out.

About the ref's and TD'. When ever there's a dispute on a rule call or question. You must be both there present to discuss what happened to the ref or TD. This must be explained by both you and your opponent Clearly. This I emfosize(sp?) because the the ref has only what he or she has to go by when making their decision. Odviously, something wasn't clear.

The best thing I can tell you is that. You've learned a valuable lesson here. One, no matter what the condition of the equipment is in, you both have to play on it. Two, make your point clear and have your opponent present when talking to anyone calling the shot. I wish you luck and put this all behind you. Good Shooting.

Regards,

C.C.