PDA

View Full Version : Why are inside english shots more difficult?



tateuts
06-15-2004, 10:51 PM
I think almost all players find this shot hit with high right english (inside english) more difficult than it is hit with center ball or with left english:

START(
%AN3L3%ER6_1%IM3_1%P_7P5%Wb9T2%XC6R5%[D1D0%\M5K8%_D1Q8%`N2M1
%a^7P2
)END

WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/)

Is there a technical explanation for this? I often like to play the shape this way, but I definitely find the shot more difficult to pocket.

Chris

Tom_In_Cincy
06-15-2004, 11:09 PM
IMO, inside english is the least used of all the different types of english. Therefore the shot that has the least amount of confidence.

It's the english I practice the most.

Rod
06-16-2004, 01:02 AM
Well for one it's not used very often. If you practice those shots as much as other strokes it will become natural.

Itís also not natural position. You could get there going two rails with little effort and no or little english. I realize that you can have blockers and that route isn't possible.

Speaking of effort, it takes a firmer hit, which could throw off accuracy.

In reference to english are you saying using top left, as inside is easier? That is if the shot diagram was reversed.

Using, top, or center is natural. Using left or low is not natural but often used. So when you think about it, when you finish most shots including pocketing the 9 ball you seldom use reverse top right or left. If you did it would make those shots, (in your mind) to appear common and quite simple. But that's not how we play pool.

Another is low inside or right on that same shot. Some may find it easier than top. That IMO is because they use more low in their game.

I also think the tendency when making some shots; (especially the last ball) is the old cinch stroke routine. You know, grab the handle and squeeze that stroke out usually with a little low. In essence none of those types of strokes make that top right shot of yours any easier.

I don't mind that shot so much if I'm clear in my mind the correct aim, speed and path of the c/b. I think any doubt here just leads to lack of confidence. The mind has a hard time which topic to focus on. Some may have aim, while others may have the line but speed can be so critical. They sacrifice, say the aim, to obtain line and speed. OK back to the pre-shot routine. It has to be clear with good visualization or the mind short circuits. lol

Just a few thoughts, I felt like typing a little before going to bed.

Rod

Scott Lee
06-16-2004, 02:24 AM
Rod...That's a very concise and accurate description, and I agree with everything you said. I don't like my students to learn that "cinch" stroke (which I think, is the quick poke at the CB), at least not before learning a premium quality "throwing motion" stroke first. Nice post!

Scott

Paul_Mon
06-16-2004, 06:16 AM
Chris,
There was a time when I also thought that using inside english was difficult. All that changed (almost overnight) after reading George Fels thoughts on the subject. He gets into the subject of inside english in his book "Advanced Pool". IMO, one of the best pool books on the market. This is a common topic in pool forums and your opinion is shared by many. But you must learn to shoot using inside english. Shots requiring inside english come up too often to be afraid of them. I also use a 314 shaft that removes some of the aiming compensation.

Paul Mon

Chris Cass
06-16-2004, 06:33 AM
Hi Chris,

I've read all of the replies thus far and agree with all of them. The point I want to make is that, it's far more important to remember to go with the natural flow of the table and not fight it. I am very consistant with using inside english and other englishes in combonation to get where I have to be in a difficult situation when needed.


You do have to sometimes but in general, most patterns can be manipulated to be played naturally. It's when you get out of line or when left in these tough spots that forces you to fight the natural roll. Doesn't mean you have to get perfect, just close.

Jerry Breisath explains it best in a video that I got the chance to see. He explains it using the side of a cuestick. He applies left english and the cb goes right. The same for the opposite. Now, if you want the scientific version? You'd have to let Mr. Bob Jewett explain it.

Regards,

C.C.~~still remembers his friend Andy G. and the tapes he so afforded me in my recovery. God bless him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Predator314
06-16-2004, 06:47 AM
I love to use inside english. I had trouble with them a year or 2 ago and practiced all kinds of inside english shots for a good month and now I love to use it. I think the Predator shafts help with inside english too (my opinion...not a proven fact).

pooltchr
06-16-2004, 07:09 AM
C.C.
Very good point. I constantly preach to the guys on my team to "Take what the table gives you!". I hate to see someone try a draw shot (unnatural for the cb) when top spin (more natural) can send the cb to the same place for shape.
That being said, there are sometimes when you don't have any natural options available. That's when you best have those "bottom left inside english" shots in your bag of tricks.
Steve

Chris Cass
06-16-2004, 07:29 AM
Hi Steve,

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Even if you get out of line, it's important to know how to get back in line again. It usually takes me two shots but there are occasions where it seems it takes the entire rack to get there. Sometimes, it isn't pretty but everyone can attest it happens. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

What I stress to my son and wife is. Try your best to make the game easy and simple. Most of the times misses occur with young players new to the game. Is when they just try to do too much with the cb. The game isn't that complicated and why make it that way? You know better than most Steve. Being an instructor and all. You have to teach many this theroy. Thanks to all you guys and girls that help us.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
06-16-2004, 07:47 AM
The moment I understood squirt, inside-english stopped becoming more difficult than outside-english.

Fred

Wally_in_Cincy
06-16-2004, 07:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> The moment I understood squirt, inside-english stopped becoming more difficult than outside-english.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

But would it not be inherently more difficult due to the tendency of inside english to throw the OB (skid) ?

Whereas outside english is called "helping english" by some.

Fred Agnir
06-16-2004, 08:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> The moment I understood squirt, inside-english stopped becoming more difficult than outside-english.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

But would it not be inherently more difficult due to the tendency of inside english to throw the OB (skid) ?

Whereas outside english is called "helping english" by some. <hr /></blockquote>That's what I used to think, which is why it *was* more difficult. But once I understood squirt, I stopped trying to compensate for throw, which IMO is a much less factor when squirt is involved. If people are trying to compensate for throw on inside-english shots (firm), you'll miss, plane and simple.

Fred

Fred Agnir
06-16-2004, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> I think almost all players find this shot hit with high right english (inside english) more difficult than it is hit with center ball or with left english:

START(
%AN3L3%ER6_1%IM3_1%P_7P5%Wb9T2%XC6R5%[D1D0%\M5K8%_D1Q8%`N2M1
%a^7P2
)END

WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/)

Is there a technical explanation for this? I often like to play the shape this way, but I definitely find the shot more difficult to pocket.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>I assume you mean "right-hand english" on this as "inside."

Tell me, where do you aim and as importantly, which side of the pocket do you miss?

Fred

Wally_in_Cincy
06-16-2004, 08:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> That's what I used to think, which is why it *was* more difficult. But once I understood squirt, I stopped trying to compensate for throw, which IMO is a much less factor when squirt is involved. If people are trying to compensate for throw on inside-english shots (firm), you'll miss, plane and simple.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Fred. I will try it out. I need to practice this more often. I saw several of the WPBA players using inside english very effectively this weekend.

SpiderMan
06-16-2004, 08:59 AM
Assuming you compensate properly for cueball squirt, hitting the correct contact point on the OB should be equally difficult (or easy) either way.

The pocketing issue is more difficult with inside because of the variable amount of friction-induced throw ("cling"). Using the correct amount of outside, the object ball will follow the "geometrically-correct" path predicted by the CB/OB line-of-centers at contact. Using inside, the actual OB path will be affected by friction-induced throw, which is not consistent from shot-to-shot.

Additionally, players are more used to using outside for counteracting throw unless position play requires otherwise, therefore the aiming process is more ingrained.

SpiderMan

Fred Agnir
06-16-2004, 09:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Additionally, players are more used to using outside for counteracting throw unless position play requires otherwise, therefore the aiming process is more ingrained.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>I think this as you and Rod mention is a very important aspect. There are already a few inside-english shots that the average player plays without much hesitation, like using a little inside on frozen balls down the rail. A lot of shooters will naturally find that they make this shot more often with inside.

Fred

tateuts
06-16-2004, 10:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>I assume you mean "right-hand english" on this as "inside."

Tell me, where do you aim and as importantly, which side of the pocket do you miss?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Well, I actually usually make them, but I have to be careful. I guess I do compensate for the throw, because compared to a regular center ball shot, I aim on pretty much the same line - maybe slightly thicker on the object ball.

I would hit this soft or medium speed, half to one tip out at about two o'clock. If my aim is off even a hair, I can easily over or undercut the shot. This shot I would hit with high right, to drive the cueball on a straight path to the cushion and back down the middle of the table. I guess there is no "typical" way I would miss this shot.

If I play this shape it's because there are blockers on the multiple rail positions and I am looking for a straight path for the cue ball. Since I switched to the Predator, I find it easier to shoot this, but I still have to be careful.

I just wonder why this shot hit with right english seems a lot harder than if it's hit with left english. Do all players find these shots lower percentage than center ball or outside english?

Chris

woody_968
06-16-2004, 10:21 AM
Spiderman, out of all the small things that make the shot more difficult I think the increased friction and throw are by far the biggest reason the shot is missed so often.

Good post!

BCgirl
06-16-2004, 10:28 AM
Both inside and outside english will "throw" the object ball (in opposite directions from the natural cut angle). It's just that it's far more common to use throw to cut a ball just a little more than you could normally (usually because you're a little off position and too close to an intervening ball). Also, many inside english shots are used to kill the rebound angle off a rail for one-rail position, and since they're hit harder than the corresponding running-english shot, the throw is less apparent.

But, the straight-in force-follow shot is a good example of the complicated things that happen. The shot is aimed straight in. The deflection causes the CB to hit left of centre, but the throw from the inside english compensates. Because the contact is left of centre, the CB will travel left. Then the follow takes over. The english again takes over when the CB hits the rail, accelerating the CB round the angles. Of course, there are people who say that the OB goes in because you're just cheating the pocket, but it flies in the face of practice, observation, and high-speed video. You need to balance deflection and throw to hit this consistently.

START(
%AI7I9%ER6_1%IM3_1%PP9Q1%Ue6W5%Vb0Z9%WJ6K5%XP0P6%Y a3Z5%ZE9C5
%[E2D2%\C6E8%]C5C6%^I1I1%eC4`5%_D1F8%`G9J3%aJ0J8
)END

I agree with most of the other comments about the relative speed at which inside and outside (often called running english) english shots tend to be hit, and the fact that it's a more commonly practised shot. But, sometimes inside english can be easier. I find the two shots below easier with inside english.

START(
%Af2D6%BN3[0%ER6_1%Pb1U5%UD3S6%VL9Z5%Wd9E6%Xb1T6%YP2[3%Z`9V1
%[M0D7%\C9R7%]r8C9%^f9D6%eC4`5
)END

Scientifically, the margin for error on both these shots s greater with outside english, but the aiming points are different. The rail shot is more natural with inside english. For very sharp cuts, particularly with the CB close to the OB, on a centre-ball hit, your aim has to be just about a half-ball's width away from the side of the OB. That aiming track can be difficult to see, and can look different closer to the OB (particularly if you wear glasses). If you aim with inside english, your aiming point is much closer to the edge of the OB, so your aiming has a much more positive reference point. But, like the original comment re. the relative ease of using outside english, these shots are easier this way largely because of human factors and comfort zones and the way we compensate for our own vulnerability to subtle aiming errors, than to science.

As a last thought, I think that because most people generally look for the most natural route round the table, inside english shots are used more often when we're out of position, and we're either forced into a subtle shot at low speed (that's more vulnerable to chalk on the balls and the table), or a recovery shot that has to be hit hard and is therefore more vulnerable to a reduced margin for error and little problems with our strokes.


BCgirl

Rod
06-16-2004, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Assuming you compensate properly for cueball squirt, hitting the correct contact point on the OB should be equally difficult (or easy) either way.

The pocketing issue is more difficult with inside because of the variable amount of friction-induced throw ("cling"). Using the correct amount of outside, the object ball will follow the "geometrically-correct" path predicted by the CB/OB line-of-centers at contact. Using inside, the actual OB path will be affected by friction-induced throw, which is not consistent from shot-to-shot.


SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

I have to disagree with that comment Marty. Throw or cling on the shot in question is so infinite that it is next to nonexistent. If it was hit at a slower speed then it could become a factor. Yet another factor is dirty or clean balls and new or old cloth. We all have had the occasion for a ball to slide on new cloth even without english. This is where cling can show its ugly head. We also have had the occasion to hit that dirty or chalk spot even on polished clean balls.

I just aim at the fat side of the pocket to allow for a small amount of squirt and use my best stroke. I think people get caught up in the throw issue because theyíre not completely aware of squirt in their equipment. That is they donít know exactly how much to compensate and pass the blame on throw. Not to mention a consistent stroke.

The definition of throw should be in the dictionary with a pic of me playing at this bar. The balls and table was so dirty I'd never seen throw like it ever. The balls felt like sand paper. I hit one shot fairly slow and the c/b actually climbed up on the o/b. Like when open wheel race cars tires touch. lol The o/b went one direction and the c/b another. Neither one came close to the original path. I told everyone on the team to shoot firm and allow for what was the worst case of cling I'd ever seen.

Rod

Rod
06-16-2004, 12:07 PM
Fred has the answer. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

woody_968
06-16-2004, 12:38 PM
Rod, I have to disagree with that comment that you disagree with that comment that Marty made /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I do think throw can come into play on the shot in question, and in many cases more so than on a thinner cut. As far as people thinking squirt caused the miss instead of throw, if you watch the shot you should be able to tell which one it was.

Assuming the shot is aimed correctly squirt would tend to make the ball look like it was overcut, where throw would make it look like it was undercut.

JMO which is often wrong /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Ross
06-16-2004, 01:00 PM
When using side english there are three factors that change the aim of the shot from a vertical axis hit: squirt, swerve, and throw. As we all know (don't we? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) squirt is the cue ball leaving on a line not parallel to the cue stick travel, swerve is the cue ball path curving slightly as it travels (mini-masse effect), and throw is the effect of the cb side spin on object ball path.

Outside english shots tend to be hit softer since the cb will take off with natural running english when it strikes the cushion. And for softer shots you dont need to compensate as much for squirt. Why? Because squirt is pretty independent of shot speed (contrary to popular belief) but swerve is affected by shot speed (slower = more swerve). Since squirt works in one direction, and swerve in the opposite direction, for slower shots the swerve is enough to cancel out most or all of the squirt effects. So for slower shots you need less aim compensation - that is, you can aim more like you would on a center ball hit.

So, as others have pointed out, one reason outside english shots tend to be easier to aim is because they tend to be hit more softly.

What about throw? Well, for the case of moderate to severe cut shots where the cb is not too far from the ob, for outside english, the more english you use, the more the squirt you have but also the more compensating throw. So this shot is less sensitive to the amount of english used. However, for inside english, more english causes more squirt but not necessarily more compensating throw. This is because, again for moderate to severe cuts, throw due to inside english does not increase beyond a certain point, no matter how much inside spin the cue ball has. So the squirt increases as you use more inside english, but you don't get a similar increase in throw to cancel out it's effect. More simply, the amount of aim compensation needed for i.e. shots is more sensitive to how much english you are using than it is for o.e. shots.

I think there may also be differences in the two shots due to the relative ease of visualizing the shot when the cue ball is "squirted into" it's target (when using o.e.) compared to visualizing the cue ball being "squirted across" the target (when using i.e.), if that makes any sense.

All of the above being said, I also find inside english shots much easier with my Predator. I'm sure that's because the squirt effects described above are less pronounced.

SpiderMan
06-16-2004, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Rod, I have to disagree with that comment that you disagree with that comment that Marty made /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I do think throw can come into play on the shot in question, and in many cases more so than on a thinner cut. As far as people thinking squirt caused the miss instead of throw, if you watch the shot you should be able to tell which one it was.

Assuming the shot is aimed correctly squirt would tend to make the ball look like it was overcut, where throw would make it look like it was undercut.

JMO which is often wrong /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Exactly my point. Who hasn't tried to roll a ball in as diagrammed, only to watch it momentarily skid offline and miss as if the shot were hit fat? It's the inconsistency of that effect, ie equipment conditions (was there chalk/dirt/grit/jizz on the balls at the contact point?), that makes the pocketing most consistent with a touch of outside english.

Sure, you can compensate for an expected amount of cling/throw, but it is STILL variable/unknown so there will be scatter in your results even if you perform perfectly. Maybe not enough to make Rod miss, but humans like myself may already be using up all our margin /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SpiderMan

Fred Agnir
06-16-2004, 02:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> I often like to play the shape this way, but I definitely find the shot more difficult to pocket.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/


Here are three shots to consider, all very important in, say, 9-ball. If you had the choice, which english would you feel better shooting. Let's not discuss position play.

A:
START(
%AT5D0%ER6_1%IM3_1%P_7P5%WW3E5%X_2O6%[D1D0%\R7C9

)END

B:
START(
%AS4O5%ER6_1%IM3_1%P_7P2%YU0P5%Z^1P7%[D1D0%\R1N9

)END

C:
START(
%AK6Q3%ER6_1%IM3_1%PR3V7%YM2S2%ZQ1U8%[D1D0%\J8P0


)END

D:

START(
%AG3I9%ER6_1%IM3_1%Pf6P0%YI1J9%Ze5O8%[D1D0%\F5H9

)END


I don't recall ever in my playing that shot A: ever was an outside-english shot for me.

Shots B, C, and D in a past life were outside english first choice types of shots, but today, specifically because of my understanding of squirt, all three are about equal as far as inside or outside. Unfortunately, that means that what seemed to be a hanger using outside, is no longer a hanger, but what used to be impossible using inside, is well within my capabilities. That is, the difficulty factor evened out.

Fred

Rod
06-16-2004, 03:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Rod, I have to disagree with that comment that you disagree with that comment that Marty made /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I do think throw can come into play on the shot in question, and in many cases more so than on a thinner cut. As far as people thinking squirt caused the miss instead of throw, if you watch the shot you should be able to tell which one it was.

Assuming the shot is aimed correctly squirt would tend to make the ball look like it was overcut, where throw would make it look like it was undercut.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well I have to disagree that you disagree with my comment that I disagreed with Marty! lol

My point is at the speed required on the "example shot", throw or cling is not an issue. Now if we rolled or shot slower speed as Marty suggests it can be an issue.

If we aimed correctly(knowing your equipment and stroke) it would split the pocket. lol BTW I know you know and so does Marty, the effect you described does exist. Just not on this particular shot. Set that pup up and shoot it as much as you want. If your aim is correct, you need not worry about throw, squirt yes, but not throw. Get the c/b to the position shown. It would be rare indeed if the contact points just happened to be dirty enough to cause any noticeable throw or cling.

I wonder why some have a throw issue and others do not? A guy I know and a decent player had it confused. He said I said (some time ago) to aim thin on a similar shot. That was because the english would throw the ball in the pocket. Somehow he compensated for aim (I haven't a clue) and made those shots, not very consistent though. I told him he had missed my point. I explained the difference in throw and squirt once again. Here he had been playing the last 4 years and aiming completely wrong. He had systems, rails, kicks, lights and all kinds of tech stuff but he was missing a key element, like aiming with english. Just a story but I thought it amusing at the time.

Rod

tateuts
06-16-2004, 03:47 PM
So, as you've improved and worked on the issue of mastering squirt, your play has evolved to feel hitting these b,c,d, shots with inside or outside have pretty much the same pocketing percentage.

What specifically did you do to adjust your game to be "neutral" in this regard?

I use inside a lot in my regular game on your B,C,D shots and feel confident in these shots, but not quite as solid as I do with center ball or outside. On shot A I am definitely more comfortable with inside but have practiced this a lot with outside because the need to bring the cue ball back on thin cuts arises so much.

You look at Efren and Bustamante at the extreme end and can clearly see they spin the ball any direction at will without endandering the shot. One of the players I regularly play is pro speed and I marvel at his ability to consistently use inside on even the most difficult long range shots, opening us more shape options than I am comfortable with.

Chris

Rod
06-16-2004, 03:47 PM
This is fun, just for shot sake,

A- A touch of inside
B- Low, a touch of outside
C- Center-favor the top
D- Center-favor the top

For reference, a touch is 1/2 to 3/4 tip of english. Favor is slightly away from center.

I too use to shoot these shots different.

Rod

HOWARD
06-16-2004, 04:00 PM
Fred,

I notice all the post no one has mentioned the amount of
English. It is a little funny speaking about hitting a
cb that is round with a cue tip that is semi-circled to
a nickle. Now that I have digressed let me move to the
meat.

No one is speaking in quantity of english, eg: 1/2 tip,
3/4 tip full tip maximum tip 1/2 (?)

I note that the better the stroke the more action with
less extreme english.

It is true the more practice the easier inside and outside
english.


Howard

Rod
06-16-2004, 04:05 PM
Howard, I just did in my post pryor to yours. Maybe you were typing at the time. Or you meant on the original shot, yes I agree.

Rod

Fred Agnir
06-16-2004, 04:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> So, as you've improved and worked on the issue of mastering squirt, your play has evolved to feel hitting these b,c,d, shots with inside or outside have pretty much the same pocketing percentage.

What specifically did you do to adjust your game to be "neutral" in this regard?<hr /></blockquote>

First was to "discover" squirt after a 10 minute lesson with Grady. I always tried to adjust for throw, but since the adjustment for throw is exactly backwards for these shots (and I believe it's backwards for most any firm english shots), I was always guessing at where to aim, always subconsciously adjusting my spin and speed because I had the aim wrong.

I started playing the thick/thin game. Aim inside english shots thick and aim outside english thin. This of course is backwards to what "throw students" would do. Throw students need to understand squirt better.

When I found out what a pivot point was for squirt compensation, that put it all together. Most normal squirt cues I've tested with a standard Rambow/Bushka style pro taper has a pivot point in the 10-12" range. Pretty convenient for a 9-ball stroke.

Fred