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Candyman
06-24-2004, 10:04 AM
Last night an opponent had a long rail shot past the center pocket. He went over to the center pocket and was fiddling with the chalk. He leaned over like he was checking angles and such when he was really useing a diversion tactic to press in the corner of the cushion just past the center pocket. He made the shot. After league I went back to the same table and tried to roll a ball past that same pocket and I couldn't make it happen. I pressed in the cushion and the shot went every time. Is this a rules violation? Seems to me something stinks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
06-24-2004, 10:46 AM
This has been discussed here before. The consensus was that it is indeed a foul.

Sorry, don't have a specific rule number.

RedHell
06-24-2004, 10:54 AM
I'm not sure... I think if he didn't make any ball move it wouldn't be a foul. It's like chalk on the clothe. You are allowed to remove them, hence changing the playing condition of the table. I know it sounds extreme but I can't see any rules that would disallow it.

Same with a defective pocket, if the rubber pocket is twisted because it's lose, you are allowed to press it back it. This rail should allow a ball to roll straight, it doesn't sound like he compressed the rail enough to put it in a not legal shape !

It's kinda like in golf, you can move stuff around as long as you don't improve your lie and make you ball move ...

I'm playing devils' advocate here, I wouldn't do it myself but I can't see how this goes against the rules.

Rod
06-24-2004, 11:10 AM
What league? Is there anything specific in there rules? To my knowledge, which is short, I don't know of any such rule in BCA. IMO it would be up to the TD or person in charge. Without a ref I doubt it. Even then I'd think there would be a warning, but no foul.

The trick on the shot is shot is shoot with a little speed. Balls have the tendency to follow the gutter line which goes around and into the side. Speed eliminates the problem. If the rail sticks out that far then the table is out of spec.

At any rate I would not call a foul but issue a warning. The next time is a foul. It would fall under unsportsman like conduct.

Rod

Rod
06-24-2004, 11:22 AM
I went over to BCA and found this rule, it close to what I said. I don't know of any other rule in this case.

2.15 INAPPROPRIATE USE OF EQUIPMENT
The referee should be alert for a player using equipment or accessory items for purposes or in a manner other than those for which they were intended, or for the use of illegal equipment, as defined under “equipment specification”. Generally no penalty is applied. However, should a player persist in such activity or use of such equipment, after having been advised that such activity or use is not permissible, the referee or other tournament official may take action as appropriate under the provisions of “Unsportsmanlike Conduct” (Also see Rule 1.3 and Rule 1.4)

RedHell
06-24-2004, 12:57 PM
Rod, this rule reference illegal equipement or illegal use of equipement. In our case, the fellow didn't use illegal equipement. In my opinion he fixed something that didn't follow the standard of equipement. If you are against the bottom cusion of a long rail, you should be able to hit a ball down that rail and make it. If the table isn't set up properly and you push the cushion back to where it is supposed to be, how is this illegal use of equipement ?

That's a tough call....

Candyman
06-24-2004, 01:19 PM
It is an APA league. I didn't make a deal out of it. In fact I thought it was pretty cool. I didn't even mention it to my teamates. If it is a legal shot I was going to file it for future use. Thanks guys. Lock

SPetty
06-24-2004, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> This has been discussed here before.<hr /></blockquote>I recall that it was discussed here before as well. So, I found it!:
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=55338

woody_968
06-24-2004, 01:29 PM
Just a question to see how far we can stretch this /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If the cueball was setting just inside the side pocket jaws but hooked on a ball up the rail, would it be legal to do the same thing and push the point in a bit possibly making the hit on the object ball a little easier?

Candyman
06-24-2004, 01:32 PM
That's a darn good question. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Candyman
06-24-2004, 01:44 PM
After reading your post, I agree it is at the least unethical. I am taking it out of my file and promise not to ever use even if it is deemed legal.

Troy
06-24-2004, 02:00 PM
Even if the rails are perfectly aligned, it is possible for a ball to hit that far point (aka "tit") since a ball has a tendency to follow that "gully" or trough. Also, as previously mentioned, speed is obviously a factor. Therefore, compressing the far rail slightly is definitely altering equipment and is therefore an infraction.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Candyman:</font><hr> Last night an opponent had a long rail shot past the center pocket. He went over to the center pocket and was fiddling with the chalk. He leaned over like he was checking angles and such when he was really useing a diversion tactic to press in the corner of the cushion just past the center pocket. He made the shot. After league I went back to the same table and tried to roll a ball past that same pocket and I couldn't make it happen. I pressed in the cushion and the shot went every time. Is this a rules violation? Seems to me something stinks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Barbara
06-24-2004, 02:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I recall that it was discussed here before as well. So, I found it!:
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=55338
<hr /></blockquote>

Fran brought up some good points. It is altering the equipment, albeit temporarily, and cheating. So I'd have to go with unsportsmanlike conduct with a warning and give BIH to the sitting player.

But another problem is, the opponent might not notice this or know what's really going on to call the ref over.

Where are some senior BCA Refs when you need them?

Barbara

RedHell
06-24-2004, 02:51 PM
I went and read the whole thread and understood something differently. In the other thread they mention compressing the corner of the cushion toward the inside, therefore altering the shape of the cushion.

When I read it in this thread I understood it as pressing the cushion against the rail, more like in a matter of making sure it was properly glued to the rail and not curving out. That, to me makes a big difference.

In the last case, you try to make playing condition as they are ment to, in the pressing the rubber inward, you are altering the shape of the bumper and therefore making it non standard.

Foul, no doubt... And I would agree with Fran that states that blattant attempt to cheating should be penalise by a loss of game.

Troy
06-24-2004, 05:23 PM
I think you are splitting some mighty fine hairs Red.
Either case is altering the table and in either case the offending player can say he was simply assuring the rubber was correctly glued to the rail -- an extremely flimsy arguement IMO since we all know what his purpose really was.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> I went and read the whole thread and understood something differently. In the other thread they mention compressing the corner of the cushion toward the inside, therefore altering the shape of the cushion.

When I read it in this thread I understood it as pressing the cushion against the rail, more like in a matter of making sure it was properly glued to the rail and not curving out. That, to me makes a big difference.

In the last case, you try to make playing condition as they are ment to, in the pressing the rubber inward, you are altering the shape of the bumper and therefore making it non standard.

Foul, no doubt... And I would agree with Fran that states that blattant attempt to cheating should be penalise by a loss of game. <hr /></blockquote>

Chris Cass
06-24-2004, 05:38 PM
Hi Red,

Although Troy does make a substacial point. I've been known to adjust a pocket when the rubber is just laying there with only one nail in it and off ctr. I've also have emptied a pocket so balls can fit in there. There really is two different things going on though.

In the case of the player smushing the corner I'm a bit lost. To me, I think if he was checking the table rails for loosness he should have done that before the game began. The best way should of been to have the ref come over and check it for himself. Not just take a sneaky way out and make a move of it.

You'll see many moves in this game. One, bending over the shot with their back blocking your view, while their arms behind them and blowing on the ball to unfreeze it. Some getting so low to move it with their nose. Some moving the bridge hand flush to bunch up the cloth to jar the ball forward. Heck, you name it. You need to nip it in the bud soon as you suspect anything. Call a ref and show your opponent your all over him or her.

I think it's nothing more than a integrity call in this case myself but then, that opens up the opportunity for you to mess with his head right back. I'd make him bob and weive the entire time from the chair and see how he likes it. You don't have to stoop that low but it's your right to get into his head right back.

Regards,

C.C.