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View Full Version : Zbilliards: Beware of buying from them



eye2sea
06-25-2004, 11:44 AM
Hi,

I thought I'd relate a Zbilliards story.

Bought a regulation sized table in April of 2003, it was delivered in May 2003.

Installed it, felted it, and found it had a small corner pocket problem (house roll into the pocket on touch shots). Figured it was a leveling issue- house is a hundred years old!

Six months later in Jan 2004 we had the table refelted.

The technician found something we missed upon installation- a hairline crack in the slate that was causing the corner pocket to sag. Unfixable!

So we contacted Zbilliards, filed a damage claim as they requested, had a few emails, and now six months later they are ignoring me and haven't replaced the cracked slate they sent out.

They do a lot of business, but I've been hearing more and more stories about how Zbilliards and other Adam Ginsberg companies have just about the worst customer service there is.

The only thing I can do is file complaints and relate my story on forums like this.

The lesson is- don't buy something like this from anyone but a local dealer. That way you can assure yourself of good customer service in the event something happens.

Scot

PQQLK9
06-25-2004, 11:54 AM
Hmmm???

DialUp
06-25-2004, 12:30 PM
I have read many complaints about zbilliards all over the internet. There is only one good thing about dealing with them - The can't stand to have negative feedback, they seem to "fix" problems if you leave negative feedback for them. Is it to late to do that?

Popcorn
06-25-2004, 12:34 PM
One, it is not UN-fixable and I am curious why you are putting on a new cloth after only six months? I am sure you are being truthful but six months later is a pretty long time to make a complaint and something like a cracked slate could have been done at any time. I would only think they would be responsible at the time of the delivery, If it was fine and you installed the table that's that. In business you get so used to being lied to by customers, you become pretty jaded. I saw a guy in front of me try return a generator to Home Depot. He said he never used it, "IT STILL HAD GAS IN IT".

Wally_in_Cincy
06-25-2004, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>....six months later is a pretty long time to make a complaint and something like a cracked slate could have been done at any time.....<hr /></blockquote>

My fiancee works for United Van Lines. If they moved a pool table and received a damage claim 6 months later I'm afraid they would tell the complainant to take a hike.

Having said that, I have seen a lot of quality complaints about zbilliards on these forums.

Popcorn
06-25-2004, 01:49 PM
What is their ebay name?

DialUp
06-25-2004, 01:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> What is their ebay name? <hr /></blockquote>

http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&amp;userid=zbilliards&amp;item=-1&amp;frompage=222

Read through a few pages and see al the square trade feedback withdrawals. There are alot of them. It looks like they buy off the mad customers...

Troy
06-25-2004, 03:00 PM
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but ---
You installed the table, correct ??? You did not see the crack when you installed the table. After only six months the table needs new cloth ??? (BTW, felt hasn't been used for years) For home use, six months to new cloth sounds like abuse to me. Finally, a good table mechanic could easily repair a "hair-line crack". I've seen far worse than "hair-line cracks" repaired with zero affect on table performance.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eye2sea:</font><hr>Installed it, felted it, and found it had a small corner pocket problem (house roll into the pocket on touch shots). Figured it was a leveling issue- house is a hundred years old!

Six months later in Jan 2004 we had the table refelted.

The technician found something we missed upon installation- a hairline crack in the slate that was causing the corner pocket to sag. Unfixable!

So we contacted Zbilliards, filed a damage claim as they requested, had a few emails, and now six months later they are ignoring me and haven't replaced the cracked slate they sent out.

They do a lot of business, but I've been hearing more and more stories about how Zbilliards and other Adam Ginsberg companies have just about the worst customer service there is.

The only thing I can do is file complaints and relate my story on forums like this.

The lesson is- don't buy something like this from anyone but a local dealer. That way you can assure yourself of good customer service in the event something happens.

Scot <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn
06-25-2004, 03:51 PM
I think there is a couple of possible problems there. One is, I would not be buying a pool table mail order. Second you are buying cheap quality stuff what do you expect. Use your head, it is wishful thinking to think you are getting a great table for that price. It will be a playable table and may need some tweaking to make it right. but that is what you bought. Third, it is probably drop shipped from a warehouse and they have nothing to do with the shipping of the tables. I like nice tools but I am not dumb enough to think the junk you buy from a place like say Harbor Freight is any good. I bought a drill there once and throw it away when I tried it at home. I didn't even bother returning it, not worth the gas to drive back.

Here is one of their ads
-------------------------------------
***FREE SHIPPING ANYWHERE IN THE CONTINENTAL U.S.***

The "Windsor - Honey" table is made of SOLID Maple. All hand carved, this table is exquisite and and will be a beautiful addition to any home for years to come! The Classic Design of the Windsor Leg combined with the incredible finish make this pool table a future family heirloom. THE DETAILS:
$5100.00 value
------------------------------------
This particular table sold for $749. and free shipping. The wholesale price on that table can't be more then $500.00, people are dreaming when they buy that stuff. You get what you pay for, it is that simple.

Cueless Joey
06-25-2004, 04:03 PM
Looks like Ebay closed their account.
No longer a member?

eye2sea
06-25-2004, 04:42 PM
Hi All,

Thanks for replying!

In answer to one of the most asked questions about why we didn't complain during installation, well, during installation we didn't see the crack.

The crack was invisible from the topside of the table. It wasn't until we replaced the felt six months later and had crawled under the table to see what else we could do to level it that we noticed what appeared to be a crack- and there it was. Visible from the bottom, very hard to see on top.

As for fixing it- this crack runs across the corner pocket. About 16 inches long. It starts on the long side of the table about a foot from the pocket, and ends up on the short side of the table a few inches from the pocket.

The local pool table guy (Bellingham Washington- we only have one local pool table guy) wasn't very optimistic in being able to get it level because there isn't much support for the corner of the slate.

If any of you have ideas about how to get a cracked corner level, I'd be more than happy to hear them.

As for why the cloth (sorry for the ignorance, we always just call it felt even though it's cloth) was replaced after six months- we play a lot of pool here. There are six guys who all love the game and the table probably gets used on average about 10 hours a day, and the games go by really fast. We're probably a bit anal about the cloth, too. Once the rack area, the breaking area, and the middle area get bald, we'd rather replace the cloth than have a table with an inconsistent feel to it.

Another thing I agree with is yes- you get what you pay for. I was a sucker to think that I'd get a good table online for a "steal" of a price. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that Zbilliards (Adam Grinsberg) has terrible customer service and that they are choosing to be dishonest about honoring their lifetime warranty.

Scot

Popcorn
06-25-2004, 05:02 PM
Now it makes even less sense. You have six guys chipping in on the table who from what you describe are very particular, why didn't you buy a top of the line table? Be honest, you guys were being cheap and you got what you paid for. You say the pocket was, I assume low, the crack would be even more visible on the top then the bottom. I will tell you what I think, I think the mechanic who installed it did it jacking the table around and never said anything. When he is putting the table together the slate is plainly visible from all sides, the idea that he did not see it because it was only visible on the bottom sounds fishy.

PQQLK9
06-25-2004, 05:11 PM
Wow 10 hrs avg a day with 6 guys...that's commercial use. Maybe one of the fellas sat on the corner (happens all the time).
Heck, if it's not a private table everybody could chip in about 900 and get a Diamond Pro. Good Luck

Troy
06-25-2004, 06:41 PM
Exactly what I was thinking.....

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Now it makes even less sense. You have six guys chipping in on the table who from what you describe are very particular, why didn't you buy a top of the line table? Be honest, you guys were being cheap and you got what you paid for. You say the pocket was, I assume low, the crack would be even more visible on the top then the bottom. I will tell you what I think, I think the mechanic who installed it did it jacking the table around and never said anything. When he is putting the table together the slate is plainly visible from all sides, the idea that he did not see it because it was only visible on the bottom sounds fishy. <hr /></blockquote>

eye2sea
06-26-2004, 04:15 PM
It can make as much or as little sense as you want, that's not the point.

The point is, the corner pocket sagged since day one. I didn't have enough experience as a pool table owner to know that it was caused by a crack in the slate, and Zbilliards is acting dishonestly by refusing to honor their warranty.

Regardless of whether or not you believe what I say (I am surprised at how judgemental some of the posts have been), but the plain fact of the matter is that I bought a new table and expected it to be in new condition. That means I expected the slate to be in good enough condition to make a true table.

Now, if anyone has any helpful suggestions about what to do with a sagging corner pocket (use Bondo on slate, does it work?) I'm all ears, but if you're just going to rip on me for making a poor judgement call in purchasing something online for a good price, you're just wasting bandwidth.

PQQLK9
06-26-2004, 04:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eye2sea:</font><hr>
Now, if anyone has any helpful suggestions about what to do with a sagging corner pocket (use Bondo on slate, does it work?) I'm all ears, but if you're just going to rip on me for making a poor judgement call in purchasing something online for a good price, you're just wasting bandwidth.
<hr /></blockquote>
If you play one-pocket...always choose that pocket /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Troy
06-26-2004, 04:36 PM
As I mentioned in another post a couple weeks ago, "Bondo® is excellent and is used extensively for both slate seams and surface problems. One table at our pool room had an "accident" leaving a scar about 1" wide, 12" long &amp; over 1/4" deep. When the table mechanic was finished, there was zero trace of a problem."

Obviously, the requirement is a having qualified table mechanic, but I'm positive the pocket can be repaired.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eye2sea:</font><hr>...if anyone has any helpful suggestions about what to do with a sagging corner pocket (use Bondo on slate, does it work?) I'm all ears,...
<hr /></blockquote>

SnakebyteXX
06-26-2004, 05:26 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but... It seems that you chose to buy an inexpensive table to try and save a few bucks and it's turned out to be defective. Now you're angry because the supplier (who probably made very little money on the sale and has a policy of avoiding any service related expense at all costs - pun intended) is ducking any responsibility for the problems that you're having.

The time to hold the dealer responsible for the defect came and went when you accepted the delivered table as 'intact'. You can't possibly prove at this point in time that the defect existed when the table was delivered and the dealer knows it. I'm afraid that you're SOL at this point in time.

When you chose to examine the installed table yourself without benefit of sufficient expertise you opened yourself up to missing a defect that an expert might have seen. You saved money by doing so but you sacrificed the added security of having someone with that expertise monitor the installation for you.

The first choice cost you nothing but involved the risk of a defect slipping by your untrained eye unnoticed The second option would have cost you something but you would have had the assurance that the table was undamaged.

The point is NOT that "the corner pocket sagged since day one." The point is that you didn't catch it in time to do anything about it. Sometimes our efforts to save money in the short run can cost us far more than we want to pay in the long run.

May I suggest that you seek the advice of an expert table mechanic regarding the repair? He may very well have a solution to your problem and an inexpensive resolution that will have you back playing on a level field in no time.

Good luck.

DialUp
06-26-2004, 05:27 PM
I would restructure the slate frame to provide support for the corner so you could shim it as level as possible, them use some bondo, beeswax, or any other filling agent to smooth it over.

Adding some more wood under the corner for support should be pretty easy if you like lying on your back /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

outreach
08-28-2004, 04:21 PM
**Important Notice to zbilliards or pegasusbilliards customers**

If you purchased an item from zbilliards (now selling as pegasusbilliards), Adam Ginsberg, etc. on eBay and did not receive either a refund or your item, or an incomplete item, there is a group of eBay buyers that are organizing to get assistance from eBay and law enforcement to pursue this seller.

There is a "pool table" thread running about this seller on the Trust &amp; Safety community board at eBay. Stop by and visit the thread.

Or, you can contact this person who is helping the buyers file reports: orange_cape@hotmail.com. Send your name, transaction number and details about your problems with this seller and you will join the other buyers that are trying to recover their money.

I encourage you to either post on the eBay Trust &amp; Safety community board "pool table" thread or send the requested information:

Orange_Cape@hotmail.com.

Thank you.

kenz54
08-28-2004, 07:35 PM
Buying from a local dealer is not a cure all. The best way to do business is to check out as best you can the company you want to do business with ...such as referrals and checking the bbb and knowing the quality of the products you are buying. just mho. I know that this does not help at this point by it might help in the future.