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View Full Version : I'm gonna rant.



Zynix
06-26-2004, 09:51 AM
Just need to vent alittle. I have played bar boxes for the last 3 years. I can honestly say I played pretty well, we never had a ranking system or anything but we had a tourney every week and it was an odd occurance when I didnt get money. Well I just recently moved and now all they have are 8 ft's and 9-ball. I have played in 3 tourneys and havent won a game. These tables are killing me, all my shots are off by about 3-4 inches... I guess it will get better in practice. Thanks for letting me vent..

Wally_in_Cincy
06-26-2004, 10:05 AM
You'll get used to them /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is a truly ironic post. Most folks here complain about the opposite situation.

1Time
06-26-2004, 10:13 AM
I often use this comparison when considering the difference between a bar table and a 9' table: a bar table is to a 9' table as a par 3 golf course is to a championship course. My point: they are 2 different animals, a house cat and a lion if you will.

This is why a player who almost entirely plays on a bar table is easy prey on a 9' table for a player who almost entirely plays on a 9' table. To deny there's a considerable difference between playing on different sized tables can be a serious under-estimation.

1Time
06-26-2004, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>This is a truly ironic post. Most folks here complain about the opposite situation. <hr /></blockquote>

I find that hard to believe.

JPB
06-26-2004, 10:46 AM
Good for you for getting to play something closer to what pool should be. I sound like a crusty old bastard, but bar boxes are a long term threat to the game. The only function that they have that is positive is to get people interested in playing pool. Unfortunately people think bar boxes are pool and most don't get curious enough to seek out real pool. They never learn anything about the game other than barbox 8-ball. Leagues are a killer too. People think it is neat to go to a lousy bar and play 3 games of non pool in a night. That's a sport killer. I would like to start a movement to bring back full size tables. We should be playing on 10' tables, not the small 9' ones. As widespread as they are, barboxes might be worse than nothing. We need to support and encourage poolhalls IMO and mock bar "pool". Bar pool players aren't a deep enough amateur base to support a decent sport. To build up enough interest in the game, you need to give people something to be interested in. Straight pool, one pocket or billiards provide more interest and challenge once people get to know them a little. Bar box 8 ball gives us a base of support that is 75 miles wide and an inch deep. Again, good for you for starting to play pool. Support the pool hall by paying time and learning to play on a real table.

Wally_in_Cincy
06-26-2004, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> I find that hard to believe. <hr /></blockquote>

I meant folks sometimes complain about not having 9-foot tables to play on and having to play on bar tables.

I did not mean that players found the 9-footers easier. I should have stated myself more clearly. I was in a hurry /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Popcorn
06-26-2004, 10:59 AM
Table size should not effect your shot making.

Popcorn
06-26-2004, 11:01 AM
That can also be true the other way around.

Popcorn
06-26-2004, 11:21 AM
Every time you see a bar table you better kiss it because there would be no pool period without the appearance of the bar table. Operating a pool rooms in most cases can not even justify the use of the property. Unless you are down some back alley, the rent and other expenses it takes to run a nice pool room hardly makes it worth it. I looked at a place a few years ago that had been a pool room and closed up. When I spoke to the landlord I found he had not renewed the lease even though they had been a pretty good tenant. It actually was not possible for them to pay what the property was now worth. It has since been divided up into medical offices. (one more pool room gone, that will not be replaced, not in this town anyway) I would guess the landlord is getting five times the rent now the pool room was paying. Pool was saved by the bar table and I think it still is the only thing that keeps pool at all in the public eye. I have no knock on bar tables.

1Time
06-26-2004, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>Pool was saved by the bar table and I think it still is the only thing that keeps pool at all in the public eye.<hr /></blockquote>

Pool saved by the bar table? Sure I'll give you that. However, I believe ESPN does a fair job of keeping pool in the public eye... and with 9' tables at that.

Popcorn
06-26-2004, 11:50 AM
That is only because the bar table and the pool leagues provide a base viewer ship. Remove the tens of thousands of players who play on a weekly basis on bar tables in organized leagues, a demographic ESPN I am sure is aware of, and you have no ESPN showing pool.

dr_billiards
06-26-2004, 11:54 AM
Bar Boxer for life !! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

woody_968
06-26-2004, 11:55 AM
I play mainly on 9' tables, and while I play some bar table tournys I hate playing on them. You will find people that can play ok on a bar table but simply dont have the stroke it takes to move the cueball around on a big table.

Someone mentioned straight pool, this is a game I just started playing a few months ago and I am totally addicted to the game. I just wish I could get more people around here to play it. I asked one of my friends to play the other day and he said it was too easy because you can play any ball in any pocket, he obviously hasnt played much straight pool /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

1Time
06-26-2004, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> That is only because the bar table and the pool leagues provide a base viewer ship. Remove the tens of thousands of players who play on a weekly basis on bar tables in organized leagues, a demographic ESPN I am sure is aware of, and you have no ESPN showing pool. <hr /></blockquote>

Sure, take away bar tables and poof goes pool from the public eye, probably right along with ESPN coverage... just like you said.

However, it's still true that ESPN does a fair job of keeping pool in the public eye, and that's contrary to your previous post where you indicated only bar tables keep pool in the public's eye (you excluded ESPN coverage).

ESPN coverage and bar tables keep pool in the public's eye.

Cueless Joey
06-26-2004, 12:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Table size should not effect your shotmaking. <hr /></blockquote>
You're kidding.
Lifetime barboxes have so many bad habits.
Speciall 8-ball players.
They putt balls almost the time.
How can they just switch to 9-foot 9-ball?
A friend of mine who's shot barbox 8-ball all his life cannot beat the 4-ball ghost on a 9-footer.

1Time
06-26-2004, 12:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr>
You're kidding.<hr /></blockquote>

He better be kidding... I'd hate Popcorn to have to admit he was... dare I say... wrong.

Cueless Joey
06-26-2004, 12:39 PM
I wonder if an APA 4 can beat the 4-ball ghost on a tight 9-footer.

woody_968
06-26-2004, 12:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> I wonder if an APA 4 can beat the 4-ball ghost on a tight 9-footer. <hr /></blockquote>

Id take the ghost every time in that game, as long as we arent talking about some sandbagging 4 /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Popcorn
06-26-2004, 01:50 PM
Don't give ESPN credit for anything, those people are just parasites who jump on any band wagon that comes along and jumps off just as quickly. They have no loyalty to anything but a rating. I doubt there is a mission statement anywhere around the ESPN offices saying our goal is to make pool a number one sport.

Popcorn
06-26-2004, 02:00 PM
Quote
"all my shots are off by about 3-4 inches.."
I was referring to this statement he made. There is a tremendous difference between a bar table and a big table, but the ability to come down on a ball and shoot it in is not one of them. Other then some shots may be longer, but that is not what he says, he say he can't make a ball anymore. The different table size should not be blamed for that. Although the different cue ball may be a problem, but that usually happens when going from a big table ball to the bar ball.

Rod
06-26-2004, 02:39 PM
Venting is good but aiming is better. LOL Bar boxes accept poorly hit shots. You can hit the rail a yard before the corner and many still go in. They promote sloppy aim if you let them. Start hitting the pockets without touching a rail. It will be worst on a nine footer until you take dead aim.

Rod

DialUp
06-26-2004, 03:12 PM
I love the 7 footers /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Here is why -

I practice/play on 9 foot regulation tables 99.999% of the time. When I am feeling like winning some easy tournament cash, I go to a bar tourny. I never miss a shot because of the loose pockets and short shots, even banks are much easier. Bar tournaments are pretty easy to win if you are a decent 9 footer (assuming you are the only *real* pool player that shows up lol ).

I feel like I am playing with a toy on the bar box /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rod
06-26-2004, 03:46 PM
Also some big table players have a hard time with the traffic on a bar table. I'm thinking of one such player. He gives me all I can handle on a big table but on a bar box, no contest. Then I know of box players that play a good game but not on a big table, like the original poster. I call bar boxes the great equalizier. Everybody makes balls on them. LOL

1Time
06-26-2004, 06:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Don't give ESPN credit for anything, those people are just parasites who jump on any band wagon that comes along and jumps off just as quickly. They have no loyalty to anything but a rating. I doubt there is a mission statement anywhere around the ESPN offices saying our goal is to make pool a number one sport. <hr /></blockquote>

ESPN gets credit for keeping pool in the public's eye whether you like it or not. The fact is ESPN contributes to keeping pool in the public's eye. And, you were simply wrong to only credit bar tables for this. Dream on Popcorn.

SecaucusFats
06-27-2004, 12:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Table size should not effect your shot making. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know about all that...When it comes to bar boxes it ain't just the size of the the table. First off there's the bigger. or heavier cue ball, then there is the fact that the 7 footer makes for more crowded conditions. I've seen a lot of good 9 ft players go down in flames on a bar box.

SF

1Time
06-27-2004, 01:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SecaucusFats:</font><hr> I've seen a lot of good 9 ft players go down in flames on a bar box. SF <hr /></blockquote>

I wouldn't deny this but there's a much higher percentage of bar table players who would go down in flames on a 9' table than the other way around. It's just way easier to adapt from a 9' table to a bar table than the other way around.

Chris Cass
06-27-2004, 06:39 AM
Hi SF,

I don't see what this thread is all about anyway. The differces are mainly playing areas. You've got your short game and you've got your long game. If your placing your cb back to ctr table most of the time then, that's cutting your shots in half. On a 9 that would be 4ft. and on the bar box it'd be 3.5ft. The longest shot on a bar box you'ld have would be say 6ft and on the 9fter it'd be 8ft. So, it's your short game on the bar box and your long on the 9.

The problem with the switching is going from bar box to 9ft. You just have to stretch your shots out. Going from the 9ft to the bar box you'ld shorten the shots. Granted it takes some time getting used to but Larry Nevel, Buddy, Earl, and half the other pros all have played on bar boxes one time or another in life. Gambling too. The only differences are the amount of playing surface.

One could say the pockets on a bar box if lined up would almost fill the space of it's endrail. Can't say that on a 9ft. As far as one says real players goes. That's not even a concideration.

Regards,

C.C.~~agreeing with SF, and Popcorn.

1Time
06-27-2004, 10:32 AM
That's such an over-simplification of the differences between a bar table and a 9' table it's not even fun. Actually it's quite sad and I find it a dis-service to the sport.

nhp
06-27-2004, 05:00 PM
Pros who play on 9-footers usually love the transition to bar boxes. I know a few pros who have run 10's and 11 packs of 9-ball on a 9-footer, and on bar boxes they have run 15's and some even into the 20's.

bluewolf
06-27-2004, 06:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi SF,

The problem with the switching is going from bar box to 9ft. You just have to stretch your shots out. Going from the 9ft to the bar box you'ld shorten the shots. Granted it takes some time getting used to but Larry Nevel, Buddy, Earl, and half the other pros all have played on bar boxes one time or another in life. Gambling too. The only differences are the amount of playing surface.

Regards,

C.C.~~agreeing with SF, and Popcorn. <hr /></blockquote>

I have seen people come into our league which had 9 foots from a 7 ft league and have problems, but they adjusted. I kind of wonder if position is tighter on the seven foots requiring more pin point position.

I know that it seemed easier to have shape on a 9 ft than an 8 foot and if I was a little off, I was more likely to still be able to get in the next ball, whereas with the smaller table, if I was a little off, I either had a very difficult cut or in some cases could not see the ball at all.

Love those 9 footers.

Laura

Chris Cass
06-27-2004, 09:58 PM
Hi 1 Time,

That's because I simplify the game. A dis-service to the sport? And, which part do you think it's a dis-service?

Regards,

C.C.

Wally_in_Cincy
06-28-2004, 06:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DialUp:</font><hr> I love the 7 footers /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Here is why -

I practice/play on 9 foot regulation tables 99.999% of the time. When I am feeling like winning some easy tournament cash, I go to a bar tourny. I never miss a shot because of the loose pockets and short shots, even banks are much easier. Bar tournaments are pretty easy to win if you are a decent 9 footer (assuming you are the only *real* pool player that shows up lol ).

I feel like I am playing with a toy on the bar box /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Well I'm surprised you don't do this every week if it's that easy. Are the real players unaware of this easy money?

Cueless Joey
06-28-2004, 08:22 AM
Wally, I used to play this 8-ball tourney.
5 bucks to get in, top prize gets a hundred.
I was on the money half the time.
I quit it. The rules was, players agree on which rules to play before playing ( "bar-rules" 8-ball or BCA ).
Too many clowns. I had to print the BCA rules. I kept imploring the TD to just make it BCA rules. He would not.
I stopped going back there. Not worth my time.
There are also a few 8-ball bar tourneys around here. Some people I know play them and they laugh how easy it is to get on the money on these tourneys.
Not worth my time. I'd rather play in my local 9-ft table hall. Even if I donate most of the time.

Wally_in_Cincy
06-28-2004, 08:38 AM
Hmmm, guess I'll have to look around Hamiltucky for some banger tourneys. I know they're out there.

Nah, on second thought I agree with you. $50 is not worth getting into a fight with a drunk /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SecaucusFats
06-28-2004, 09:02 AM
The very first thing that 9 ft table players notice is that it is easier to make the shots on a 3 1/2 x 7 bar table. What those same players never seem to "get" is that to get the same crowded conditions on a 9 ft table you would have to place an additional ten balls on the table IOW you would have to use 25 balls on a 9 ft table to equal the conditions on a crowded bar box. Lots of "problem balls", clusters, and blocked position lanes abound on a bar box. It only takes one little mistake to make what looked like a sure runout into an embarrassing loss. This is because a 7 ft bar box has a playing area of 3200 sq inches versus 5,000 for a 9 ft table. The crowded conditions also lend themselves to opportunities for tough safeties that would be hard to duplicate on the big tables.

The side pockets on a bar table are 3 3/4" to 4 5/8" while the throat is usually 3 1/4" to 3 5/8". Compare this to the 9 ft table where the side pockets are 5 3/8" to 5 5/8" (BCA specs). You will quickly discover that the side pockets on a 9 ft table are bigger at the back of the pocket than the same pockets on a 7 ft table are, at the mouth. On a 9ft table the minimun shot angle into the side is 21 degrees on a bar box it's 30 degrees.

The corner pockets on a bar table are easier because while they are generally 4 1/2" at the mouth (smaller than the corners on a 9 footer), you can cheat them them by up to a 1/2 ball by having the object ball contact the cushion first but not hard. IOW, you can aim the center of the O.B. at the point of the corner and still make the shot provided you use a moderate speed.

Now let's look at what IMO is the most significant difference in playing on a bar box: the cueball. Bar box cueballs are either a.) heavier or b.) bigger and heavier. (Of course if you are playing on the new type coin op tables where the cueball is the same as the object balls then obviously this is not an issue). The heavier cue ball has to be shot differently when executing a stop shot because if you shoot it with center ball so that it is sliding when it contacts the O.B. it has a tendency to follow a little bit before stopping due to the extra mass / weight. So to get the cueball to stop dead you must shoot below center and softer to impart a touch of draw.

Getting the cue ball to draw, and do so with accuracy in terms of exactly how far you want it to back up, is also harder on a bar box due to the heavier cue ball. When using follow the heavier cue ball has atendency to follow further and so you must adjust for this tendency. In addition to the above, in the case of the bigger cue ball, adjustments have to be made when cutting balls in order to avoid over or under cutting the object ball. IMO the heavier cue ball also generates more throw and this must also be adjusted for.

The path taken by an overweight cue ball is always different than that of a normal cue ball after contact with an object ball. This is because the bar box cue ball has an inate tendency to follow the cue ball due to it's greater mass. Carom angles can differ up to 10 degrees depending on speed for a given shot in comparison to a standard cueball. Not being aware of these differences leads to positional errors and if you string enough of those errors together it can quickly lead to defeat. Set up a shot for a medium speed half ball hit into a corner using an object ball as your cueball. Mark the spot where this "cue ball" stops and then set up the exact same shot and shoot it with the heavy bar box cue ball. Mark the spot where the heavy cue ball stops and observe the difference.

I enjoy playing pool, it doesn't matter to me if I'm playing on a 9 ft Gold Crown at my favorite pool hall or on the 3 1/2' x 7 ft' Great American bar box (complete with 860 Simonis and Aramith Pro balls) at my favorite Irish pub. I don't subscribe to the elitist school of thought that says one should look down on bar box players (never have, never will).

Buddy Hall was a Bar Box player and Champion, and so btw, was Johnny Archer. In the early '70's Richie Florence was the hottest money player around on the big tables. Richie had his clock cleaned on a bar table and lost his entire bakroll playing bar table specialist "Mexican Joe" Salazar for $500 a game. After his defeat, Richie Florence practiced on the bar tables and in 1983 he won the Miller Lite World Series of Tavern Pool championship.

SF

Ralph S.
06-28-2004, 10:38 PM
Mexican Joe was pretty damned good, but you should see his nephew play. He literally smokes his uncle Joe at will. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Popcorn
06-29-2004, 01:35 AM
Maybe today, but 25 years ago Joe was the best bar table player, period. His big table game was just a hair under the top players.

SecaucusFats
06-29-2004, 08:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Maybe today, but 25 years ago Joe was the best bar table player, period. His big table game was just a hair under the top players. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes he sure was. BTW, after he lost to Mexican Joe, Richie Florence vowed to come back and defeat Joe. Of course, he never did play Joe for money again. And it's interesting to note that it took Richie about ten years to really get the hang of the bar boxes even though he was a hellacious big table player. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

SF