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View Full Version : Bar Box vs. 9 Footer Issue



Bassn7
06-27-2004, 11:21 AM
It's not the size of the table that matters, it's the size of the EFFORT on the table you choose that counts. I've chosen the bar table for my arena. I take it very seriously. Mondays- two sets of 100 straight pool and then one set of race to 5 8-ball. Wednesdays- league matches and two additional sets of race to 5. Fridays- 5 sets of race to 5.

(The players that play 9 ball on the big tables in our poolhall . . . don't dare to play me for the cash playing 8-ball on the bar box. I also have no expectations to win in their world. I know my limitations and love the game I've chosen to play.)

Whatever your choice. . . be the best you can.

1Time
06-27-2004, 11:32 AM
Now this thread has potential... that is, to show who the real players are... and the many who aren't.

Malice
06-27-2004, 11:46 AM
The table size changes the game. The balls are the same size, so on a smaller table they tend to be closer together. 8 ball on a bar box tends to involve clusters and shorter, more precise position play than 9 ball on a big table.

I happen to like both about equally, but in my area there's no 9 ball or bigger table leagues.

ras314
06-27-2004, 12:48 PM
Size does matter when you've got fifteen balls crowded up on a small 7 footer (or heaven forbid a 6 1/2 ft crackerbox) or a big old 10 footer.

Worse than size difference is the awful condition so many bar boxs are in. Generally very slow, sometimes ridiculously unlevel. I'm liable to get so involved with cussing the lously table I can't play a lick.

Somehow I can't see myself playing 8 ball on a barbox in a pool hall. For one thing the $.75 or more a rack gets expensive in a hurry.

Karatemom
06-27-2004, 01:01 PM
There's no doubt that my 8 ball game on a bar box is much better than my 9 ball game on any table. But what I've always wondered is this: does it really matter what size table you play on. If it's all about contact point, pocketing the ball, and getting position, does it matter? Then there's this, my 9 foot game, any game, is worse than my bar box game. In this case, the length of the table does matter, but should it?

Heide ~ thinking this could be a chicken and egg dilemma

Bassn7
06-27-2004, 01:11 PM
All the bar tables in our pool hall are clean, pay-by-the hour only and use beautiful clean sets of balls with a red circle cue ball. Most St. Louis area bar tables are kept in great shape in the larger pool rooms. Leagues are huge here and the players demand top notch equipment.

Cueless Joey
06-27-2004, 01:15 PM
It matters a ton.
On 9-foot tables, your mechanics have to be more sound to pocket balls. On 9-foot tables, angles are not as sharp but positioning is very important unless you want to shoot long shots all day. On bar bax tables, getting off-line is not quite as devastating as pocketing is much easier on short distances.
Then, there's the matter of 8-ball game. I've seen it so many times. A player plays shape for one ball and get way off line, he turns around and shoots another ball.
Can't do that on 9-ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ras314
06-27-2004, 01:16 PM
There is the problem of having more shots where the cb is difficult to reach on bigger tables. Not many places I can't reach on a bar box if I'm willing to shoot off handed.

Hate the crutch but I'm trying to learn how to use the thing.

Also it seems like the bar tables tend to have larger corner pockets and smaller side pockets.

ras314
06-27-2004, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> All the bar tables in our pool hall are clean, pay-by-the hour only and use beautiful clean sets of balls with a red circle cue ball. Most St. Louis area bar tables are kept in great shape in the larger pool rooms. Leagues are huge here and the players demand top notch equipment. <hr /></blockquote>
That would remove some of my objections to the small table.

Once made a road trip up north east and ran across a 10 ft table. Think I've heard them called rebel traps. For darn sure there was a big difference over a normal 9 ft. This was before the BIH rules and there were few tournaments.

Barbara
06-27-2004, 02:20 PM
Heide,

I believe the length of the table absolutely matters. I also think that it's *easier* to downsize than to supersize on a table.

Case in point. My tour has had its share of snooker players defecting here to play on 9 foot tables versus the 12 foot tables they're used to. Kelly Fisher and Val Finnie recently played in one of my events and had recently visited back home just before the event. Kelly told me they looked long and hard at that 12 foot snooker table back home and shook their heads at it. And Kelly just took 2nd place in the Vegas BCA Master division.

Two years ago Kim Shaw entered the BCA 8-ball Nats and took 1st place in the Women Masters Division. To my knowledge, she had never played 8-ball, plus, on a 7-foot table in any other competition. I was shaking my head at John Lewis for immediately putting her in the Masters instead of keeping her in the Open division she entered. His response was that he *knew* snooker players and she deserved the promotion.

Heck, I never used to play on my Dad's GCIII at home after he had the pool room built when I was in college. I played on an 8-footer in my dorm, but couldn't shoot worth a hoot on the 9-footer. But then again, my mechanics were for crap, too. What the heck did I know about shooting pool? It's funny what you learn after you "learn".

I think to limit oneself to a certain size table really shortens up your game. In golf, you have to know how to drive, chip, and putt. People just don't realize that pool has all those kind of variables as golf does.

Barbara

SnakebyteXX
06-27-2004, 02:34 PM
When it comes to shooting anything (pool - guns) errors in accuracy are magnified by distance. Meaning that even a small error in your shot has a much greater chance of missing the target the further away it is. People who play regularly on nine foot tables have been forced to reduce their margin of error in order to consistently sink long shots.

So, it stands to reason that a player with that degree of accuracy would find it easier to sink balls on a bar box because the target is so much closer. Conversely, a regular bar box player will often find that moving to a nine footer will tend to magnify any margin of error they may have in the accuracy department.

A nine foot table player will indeed find that congestion is a much larger issue when playing Eight Ball on the bar boxes. Here again we're talking about a skillset. I cut my teeth playing straight pool (a game that has fallen out of fashion). A huge part of playing call shot pool involves mastering the art of breaking up clusters to create shooting opportunities.

Because Nine Ball is played with fewer balls this skill is not quite as important - therefore a Nine Ball player may have more trouble with the ball crowding that they run into on a bar box. Then again, maybe not.

Speaking from personal experience as an old fashioned straight pool (call shot) player, used to nine foot tables, whenever I've moved onto a bar box it was like playing on a kids toy. The pockets seemed ridiculously close and positioning as well as busting up the congestion seemed pretty simple.

Just my dos centavos - nothing more.

Barbara
06-27-2004, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> It matters a ton.

<font color="blue">Absolutely right!</font color>

On 9-foot tables, your mechanics have to be more sound to pocket balls. On 9-foot tables, angles are not as sharp but positioning is very important unless you want to shoot long shots all day. On bar bax tables, getting off-line is not quite as devastating as pocketing is much easier on short distances.

<font color="blue">I think that getting out of line on a 7-footer is much more devastating that on a 9-footer. You've got more error for margin on a 9-footer. Inches really count on the smaller table. But you knew that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

Then, there's the matter of 8-ball game. I've seen it so many times. A player plays shape for one ball and get way off line, he turns around and shoots another ball.
Can't do that on 9-ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<font color="blue">Very true. Each table's game has its own strategy.</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Barbara

Popcorn
06-27-2004, 02:43 PM
Quote
"who the real players are... and the many who aren't."

What does that really mean? I have a little to write on the subject but I can't do it extemporaneously, I have to think a little about it, I have defiantly opinions though on the value of the bar tables. I will write something later. I hope you are not implying that players who play on big tables are in some way superior to small table players? By the way I have played on plenty of junk 9 footers in dumps without air conditioning, and I have played on some great 8 footers in both bars and pool rooms.

Cueless Joey
06-27-2004, 02:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think that getting out of line on a 7-footer is much more devastating that on a 9-footer. You've got more error for margin on a 9-footer. Inches really count on the smaller table. But you knew that.
<hr /></blockquote>
True that but I can always play "cheat-pool" on "bar-rules" 8-ball.
I just "miscue" on purpose. Lagging the cue away from the other guy's balls. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bluewolf
06-27-2004, 06:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>I think that getting out of line on a 7-footer is much more devastating that on a 9-footer. You've got more error for margin on a 9-footer. Inches really count on the smaller table. But you knew that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

tap tap. 9ft requires a better stroke and more accurate shooting. 7ft requires more accurate shape.

Laura---&gt;still thinks 8ball is harder than 9ball

DialUp
06-27-2004, 07:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Quote
I hope you are not implying that players who play on big tables are in some way superior to small table players? <hr /></blockquote>

I think that it is a real good rule of thumb that 9 footers are are superior as a whole and even on a individual basis (with exceptions, of course /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

The only negative aspect to playing on a small table is position for the first few balls. After that, the table opens up pretty good.

IMO, the advantages to the small table are so great that the positional aspect becomes, almost, minimal.

Advantages are:
<ul type="square">
loose pockets
A big increase in "Pocket Speed"
Rarely (if ever) need a bridge.
The longest shot possible seems very makable compared to the 9 foot long shot
I can *see* the angles MUCH easier the closer the balls are
I can see position MUCH easier on a bar table
Break outs are easier to set up for based on the previous statements
Safes are easier to play based on the previous statements
Kicks and banks are easier
[/list]

I guess I could sum it up by saying the entire game is simplified on a bar table with exception to position (oh ya, jumps are tougher on short tables)

Rod
06-27-2004, 08:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
7ft requires more accurate shape.
<hr /></blockquote>

You might want to think about that one.

Popcorn
06-27-2004, 11:16 PM
What I objected to was the tone of his post, implying if you don't play on 9 foot tables you aren't a real player. You would be in pretty good company then because in the south, most of the tables you found were 4 x 8's. Players like Hall, Taylor, Lassiter, Wade Crane, and almost all of the southerners learned the game on 4 x 8's. Playing banks one pocket and yes even straight pool. The problem arises I believe with the bar tables that came out in the beginning years ago. Some of them, in fact most of them were to say the least, terrible. The connotation when you said bar table did not imply a smaller table but a horrible table with bad cloth, dirty balls and a huge cue ball you could not draw an inch. Pool room players hated them. Want to know a secret, I loved them, the worse the better. I prided myself in that I could play on virtually anything that resembled a pool table. I played a Seminole Indian named Randolph Scott, (he was named for the movie actor), in the everglades on a table set under a thing they call a Chickee. It is a thatched roof open air hut. We were playing out-of-doors in 100% humidity..

I played on a regular basis in a place called the Anchor bar near a port. This was a real action spot where players like Three Fingered Ronnie, Ed (army) Giger, Gene the machine Cooper, and a host of bar table specialists played. No one came there and got the money. Some of the list of players that came there and lost are, Sigel, Hubberd, Rempy, Ambrose (I busted him), even Gene Nagy lost there. The only guy I remember winning was Hopkins. He was amazing, a guy names Big Steve Melnes brought him in and he got the money. He may have been the best unknown bar table player there was. I used to play in a ring game every couple of week in a disco. The table was just off the dance floor and when the mirrored ball was spinning you thought you were hallucinating or something. I played a guy once in the dark. The lights went out and we kept playing. He got even and beat me, I think he was part owl.

A lot of the players in the pool rooms, if there is a piece of lint on the table or their hair is out of place can't play. I played guys in their home rooms, that play on one table and won't even play if it isn't available. I'm Not kidding I played one pool room owner that made the guy get off the table because he wanted it. So I said lets play on a different table, any table but that one, he would not play. I think the ability to play under the most adverse conditions easily prepares you to play on a table where you have more room and the biggest problem may be the shot is a little longer. In a week you would be in dead stroke no problem. Fortunately, today the tables found in bars are very nice and I think the term "Bar table" should no longer bring the same image to mind. Tables like Diamond are changing all that. Make no mistake, the people who play on leagues are pool players, as much as anyone else is. I very much dislike it when someone tries to discriminate against them as if they are second class players, they are not. They make up the backbone of the pool playing community. We all play the same game regardless where we play.

Cueless Joey
06-27-2004, 11:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
They are not, and they make up the backbone of the pool playing community. We all play the same game regardless for where we play.
<hr /></blockquote>
They sure are.
When was the last time a 9-foot table leagues went to Vegas for a national tournament?
I hate barbox pool and for the most part the players in the bars I used to go to (nobody knew the rules).
But, APA and othe bar table leagues do contribute a ton to the sport and the businesses behind the sport.

landshark1002000
06-28-2004, 01:43 AM
Hi Karatemom:

Good comments all around on this.

9 foot tables have more square footage than barboxes. ( Do the math: 9x4.5 = 40.5sf vs 7x3.5 = 24.5sf).That's almost twice the space! So whitey has more room to roll.

More room = less clusters and more space to work cleaning up your trouble balls.

Less room (bar tables) = more opportunity for defensive play.

IMO, 9 footers are great for nine ball and bar tables are best for 8 ball.

Ted

dr_billiards
06-28-2004, 01:43 AM
In my town we have one poolroom. It has pay by the hour bar boxes 3 1/2x7 ( $3.00 per player per hr.), and they use red circle cue balls. The room does have 2 4 1/2X9's and a 5x10 snooker table. These get no play. The bar tables are always rockin' /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think the bar tables show the true player by the precision shape that you have to play. I will play anybody in the world on a bar table.... well anyone but Dave Matlock, and Sammy Sosa.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bluewolf
06-28-2004, 03:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> 7ft requires more accurate shape.
<hr /></blockquote>

You might want to think about that one. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote landshark1002000:</font><hr>

<font color="blue">9 foot tables have more square footage than barboxes. ( Do the math: 9x4.5 = 40.5sf vs 7x3.5 = 24.5sf).That's almost twice the space! So whitey has more room to roll.

More room = less clusters and more space to work cleaning up your trouble balls. </font color>

Less room (bar tables) = more opportunity for defensive play.

Ted

<hr /></blockquote>

Rod, see Ted's answer above. i think that appoximates my thoughts on this. To me, it is pretty logical that when you have more room to move around on, if you are off a little on pinpoint position, it is not going to hurt you nearly as much as it will on a smaller table where there is less space to manuever around on.

Perhaps you are thinking from the perspective of someone with very good shape? And if that is true, that you are very good at pin point position, then the 7fts do not present this problem for you?

For someone like me, zone position is pretty good, finess shots not involving rails is good, but if I am using rails for shape, all I have to do is overshoot or undershoot it 1-2 inches and typically this will hurt me more on a 7ft vs a 9 ft, IMO.

I just think that when a person is at best a c- player, then this would be noticed as opposed to an A-B player who is very good at pin point position.

JMO

Laura

Frank_Glenn
06-28-2004, 05:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I played on a regular basis in a place called the Anchor bar near a port. This was a real action spot where players like Three Fingered Ronnie, Ed (army) Giger, Gene the machine Cooper, and a host of bar table specialists played. No one came there and got the money.<hr /></blockquote>
Freddy's Anchor Bar in Port Everglades? I used to go there in the late 60's. It was the first bar out the gate.

Run100
06-28-2004, 05:21 AM

Cueless Joey
06-28-2004, 08:33 AM
True but it's a lot easier to move the cueball two feet instead of 5 feet.
Throw 3 balls on the table and play the ghost.
You'll find out running out on the barbox is a heck a lot easier.
An APA 4 will probably runout the 4-ball ghost most of the time on the barbox. On big table?

Rod
06-28-2004, 10:31 AM
What I'm saying is, you said, "a 7ft requires more accurate shape." What I mean is you don't need to be close to the ball if the angle is near correct. You can play angle even if you have to take a longer shot. If you play zone on a 9 footer it should be much closer to the o/b. Start leaving yourself long ones on a 9 footer and more misses. Not to mention a better stroke to move whitey around.

Some big table players (playing on a bar table) make the mistake of trying to pin point position in crowded situations. It isn't necessary, just take a longer shot if the angle is about right. On a big table even in crowded situations is usually not near as tight.

While whitey has more room to roll on a big table, it can be easier to break up clusters on a bar table. Granted less room after the break out but many times an easier target because of less space. Knowing where the balls are going is a big help, not just blasting them everywhere. lol

Rod

Popcorn
06-28-2004, 11:10 AM
There are a lot of factors that can be pointed out that change the actual play of the game, but the primary difference will be the table it's self. You can play on an 8 foot gold crown in the pool room and you will only experience the slightest difference in the game. You will quickly forget what size table you are playing on. I have played in pool room tournaments where you played on both depending on when you match was up. Some of the bar tables just play really funny. The rubber on the rails can be really tricky and pockets spit out balls and a cue ball that does not go where you think it will and so on. I don't think the table size is really the biggest issue. If the equipment is of good quality the game can be played fine on most any table. The secret of the old time bar player, if there was any, was they knew what was going to happen and the unfamiliar player didn't. I would love to see those old junk bar tables disappear all together is they haven't already. Good quality equipment and the game can be played enjoyed by all.

smfsrca
06-28-2004, 11:36 AM
Here is an anecdotal story I have for bar boxes vs 9 footers.
A few years ago I played 8-ball in a bar league for a team which played out of a pool hall.
When we played at home we always played on a 4.5 x 9 table and overwhelmed every team we played.
When we played away we played on 7' bar boxes and although we won most of our matches the scores were much closer.
After the season was over the league administrators made it illegal to play on 4.5 x 9.

Popcorn
06-28-2004, 06:28 PM
That was in fact the place, did you play there? It had a couple of trap tables, everybody matched up on the one in the front by the door and the juke box and the back one usually had a ring game going on. The ships would come in the port and you would have 800 sailors wandering around and the anchor bar was just a short walk out the gate from the ships. A lot of pool, gin, poker, always something to do. I need to add, I don't know the first thing about cards and don't play, I just play pool but I liked the atmosphere. Same with the track. I used to go almost every night with friends but never bet.

Chris Cass
06-29-2004, 05:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Run100:</font><hr> If you don't think the size of the table matters, try playing the ghost a race to 11 on a nine footer and a barbox. You'll quickly find out which table is more difficult. <hr /></blockquote>

Hi run,

There is a ball difference and I don't dispute that but as far as real players go. The so called real player can play and has played on every table imaginable. A real player would play in gravel. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Even on the Sears honeycone tables. LOL He might not like it but, the way he looks at it is simple. You both have the same opportunities and have to deal with the same crap so, it's even. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif the ball difference is wild also and goes to the bar box. imho

Chris Cass
06-29-2004, 06:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> 9ft requires a better stroke and more accurate shooting. 7ft requires more accurate shape.

Laura---&gt;still thinks 8ball is harder than 9ball <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Laura,

I think your looking at this in the wrong way. Lets try to make it a more positive than a negative way of thinking. Do this with all your thoughts and it'll pay off big in the end, believe me.

Lets just say, a 9fter gives you the opportunity to let your stroke out. This real player stuff and which table is better than the other and which players are better is totally crazy. I've seen and played some of the best players in the entire world. When you see world champions play on any equipment, it's great pool.

These guys and women make art out of the game. It's truely a marvel and so enjoyable to watch. I'd like to keep you on the right path as your starting out. When you see great play no matter the equipment it's being played on, you'll know it. I've seen bar box pool played perfect. This doesn't mean that one can't see the beauty from a sl3 either. It might be one shot or a 3 ball run. So, keep your sights on not the equipment but on a smooth straight stroke. I could care less about how a player can make balls. For me it's watching the final stroke. Take George Micheals for one. He can play, no doubt but his stroke is or was so pretty, I could watch him alnight long. Phenominal even on a bar box. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
06-29-2004, 06:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_billiards:</font><hr>I will play anybody in the world on a bar table.... well anyone but Dave Matlock, and Sammy Sosa.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Doc,

Back in the early 80's I was stationed in Ga. Played on 9fts at the rec ctrs on my working days that I wasn't in the dang field. lol Well, me and a guy Joe Utz from Pa. used to go down every mth with a load of cash to play in the bars.

We once went into a bar and I played the owner. I wanted to play $20. 9 ball and he agreed. I won 10 games straight. Now the guys pi$$ed and wants me to play his friend and was calling all over to find him. I waited like two hrs and then decided to leave. The guy went by another name but I soon found out it was Wade Crane.

I never wanted no part of him at that time. This guy put a 7 pack perfect 1000 pts accustats and was roaming or living there in Ga. at the time. Dave wasn't even a thought. I did get a chance to play David in Oleath Ks. at a tourney.

Dave and I went back and forth for the first 8 racks. The score was 4-4 and rack your own. David made 2 balls everytime he broke. Both in the same corner pocket each time. He ended up winning the race to 7 I believe it was and took the event off, if I remember right.

Anyway, I was in no way as intimidated playing him than I would have been playing Wade. Yes, it's easier to pocket balls on a bar box and it all comes down to the breaks. You have to win your serve with these guys. It's run out 9 ball. David got on the hill that day by one safety he wasn't playing and one lucky break on another game. He apologized for both as we sat next to eachother. He is truely a nice guy. He's humble and is a champion without a doubt. I think I wouldn't have even gotten to the table with Wade.

Regards,

C.C.

RedHell
06-29-2004, 08:17 AM
Chris,

I aggree with you about the fact that a real player will play well on any table. But I disagree that when a strong player plays a weak player on a table in bad condition it the same for both.

There are many shots that a poor condition table will not allow an experience player to take, but as the innexperienced player don't know them shots he's not diminished by it.

I feel that the worst the equipement the less difference there will be between experience and innexperienced player.

1a2b3c
06-29-2004, 08:59 AM
i own a bar box and a snooker table. I would have to say its tougher to play on the snooker table of course but i find 9 footers easier than a bar box. The nines are easier to move around on cause you have more room. On a bar box you got a tighter working area. The nine footers also have wider side pockets.

Like you i play very seriously. I dont have a schedule or anything but i play atleast a few racks a day. I play 8 ball on my snooker table with special sized "snooker 8 balls". I play on my bar box just to keep up with the bar box players.

But again, i do find it much harder to work your cue ball on a bar box rather than a nine footer.

SpiderMan
06-29-2004, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> Chris,

I disagree that when a strong player plays a weak player on a table in bad condition it the same for both.

There are many shots that a poor condition table will not allow an experience player to take, but as the innexperienced player don't know them shots he's not diminished by it.

I feel that the worst the equipement the less difference there will be between experience and innexperienced player. <hr /></blockquote>

Absolutely, bad equipment is an equalizer. Good equipment allows the better player to more fully utilize his ability. If the table were nothing but rubble, no one could make a ball and I'd play even with the pros (extreme example, but it ties down the far end of the scale).

SpiderMan

crawdaddio
06-29-2004, 09:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1a2b3c:</font><hr> I play 8 ball on my snooker table with special sized "snooker 8 balls". <hr /></blockquote>

Try 9 ball with the full size pool balls on tne snooker table.
Now that's "fun" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Popcorn
06-29-2004, 09:34 AM
It may be an equalizer mostly due to the element of surprise. Some of the old bar tables could be tricky and any unfamiliar player would be in a trap. I saw Mike Sigel miss a spot shot on a bar table, (Yes Virginia we once spotted balls and shot from behind the line), by a foot, The object almost stuck to the heavy cue ball. A lot of tables would spit out balls if they were not hit at just the right speed and position play with the heavy cue ball could be very strange at times and so on. Those champions would be still champions on any table once they got used to it though. Again we are only talking about the phony tables. If it is a top quality table playing well, that champion will probably whack you out most likely right out of the box.

Wally_in_Cincy
06-29-2004, 09:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> ...Absolutely, bad equipment is an equalizer....<hr /></blockquote>

On a related note,

I was playing with a lousy house cue the other night at some place. The tip was like glass, would not hold chalk. I could not draw without miscuing. After about 3 miscues I finally got wise and quit trying to draw. Doh /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif. By then it was too late, I had been beaten soundly by someone I should have beaten easily.

Wally &lt;~~gets beaten soundly a lot actually

rah
06-29-2004, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You can play on an 8 foot gold crown in the pool room and you will only experience the slightest difference in the game. You will quickly forget what size table you are playing on. <hr /></blockquote>

What you say is true ONLY IF you have a good stroke, such as yourself. If a person has a louzy stroke, then this deficiency will show up on a larger table.

Also I have heard that the APA supposedly adds one to you handicapps in national tournaments if you are coming from large tables to small tables. Lee Tianti in MD informed us of this....I think with the object of having everyone answer 'no' to the question of 'are you coming from large tables?' so that we they went to Vegas they would not be at a disadvantage. This is pure speculation (Tianti's motives), but nonetheless, this was announced in front of a couple of hundred people.

One more thing to mention here: In APA play I have seen those (especially SL7s) who just can't make the transition from large tables to small tables and vice versa. This is the real world Popcorn - us ball bangers with no stroke LOL.

1a2b3c
06-29-2004, 10:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1a2b3c:</font><hr> I play 8 ball on my snooker table with special sized "snooker 8 balls". <hr /></blockquote>

Try 9 ball with the full size pool balls on tne snooker table.
Now that's "fun" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

I play 8 ball but yes, ive played with the regular sized balls...you gotta be nats ass with your shots.

Fred Agnir
06-29-2004, 10:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rah:</font><hr> Also I have heard that the APA supposedly adds one to you handicapps in national tournaments if you are coming from large tables to small tables. Lee Tianti in MD informed us of this....<hr /></blockquote>There is a box you check off every week as to what size table you are playing on. So, there's no reason for someone at the National Tournament to ask.

Fred

Eric.
06-29-2004, 12:51 PM
IMO, there is a difference. I feel that the better the player, the less difference between playing on the two tables.

On the other hand, the less skilled players definitely feel the change. On the bigger tables, you have to pocket balls more accurately, play better position because it's easier to get out of line and need to stroke the CB more to get better position, so you're not taking longer shots all the time. It seems like certain bar tables, like the 7 foot Valley tables have very forgiving pockets. They're so forgiving, you can usually hit about 1/2 diamond up on the rail and still pocket a ball. On most commercial 9 fotters, you're gonna hang the ball.


Eric

Chris Cass
06-29-2004, 03:28 PM
Hi Eric,

ummm, I understand your point and yes, the 9 ft would show you if your stroke isn't up to standards. The diamond up the rail thing is mainly pocket speed. imho On the bar box I'd guess it'd be about 4mph and the 9 ft being about 3mph. They roll quite a bit straighter than the bar box. It seems that you almost can't slow roll a ball without the fear of it rolling off on the bar box. Where the 9 ft is more stable and solid. Nobody ever picks up the table end on those puppies. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The 9 ft does have a major advantage in the playing conditions. The 9 ft is more consistant but with the new Diamond Bar boxes it seem to reach those goals closer than the Valleys. Along with the Red circle cb's the Arimth (sp) cb is a little better as far as cb rolls but if your using the Red circle on both then, I'd venture to say the Diamond table is closest to the 9 ft conditions as you can get with a bar box. Still, the players speed wouldn't change if they were allowed enough time to get used to both. imho

Regards,

C.C.

Eric.
06-30-2004, 08:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Eric,

ummm, I understand your point and yes, the 9 ft would show you if your stroke isn't up to standards. The diamond up the rail thing is mainly pocket speed.

<font color="blue"> I disagree. The biggest difference between the two tables is the depth of the throat or shelf inside the pocket and to a lesser degree, liveliness of the rail rubber. The shelf is what causes a ball to bobble and hang in the pocket. Most barboxes have no shelf at all. When I shoot on a barbox, I'll think nothing of drilling a shot down the rail at 100 MPH and even if the OB touches the side rail, no biggie. On the 9 fters, you have to be more aware of pocket speed and accuracy. </font color>

imho On the bar box I'd guess it'd be about 4mph and the 9 ft being about 3mph. They roll quite a bit straighter than the bar box. It seems that you almost can't slow roll a ball without the fear of it rolling off on the bar box. Where the 9 ft is more stable and solid. Nobody ever picks up the table end on those puppies. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The 9 ft does have a major advantage in the playing conditions. The 9 ft is more consistant but with the new Diamond Bar boxes it seem to reach those goals closer than the Valleys.
<font color="blue"> The Diamond barboxes are the perfect example. Most of the Diamond boxes have the same bucket pockets as a Valley/Dynamo BUT the Diamond has a bit of a shelf, making the corner pockets play somewhat tougher. </font color>
Along with the Red circle cb's the Arimth (sp) cb is a little better as far as cb rolls but if your using the Red circle on both then, I'd venture to say the Diamond table is closest to the 9 ft conditions as you can get with a bar box. Still, the players speed wouldn't change if they were allowed enough time to get used to both. imho

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

It's entirely my humble(uninformed?) opinion, but I feel that one of the main reasons a player(other than the highly skilled)loses a game/match is due to missed shots. For A thru D players, missed shots hurt more than bad position and poor safeties. My point was that other than the upper echelon players, if you play mainly on a barbox, your game struggles a little going to the 9 fters. Of course, I'm only talking about pocketing and position skills. There is more to it than that but I think I ran my mouth enough. Take care and see ya in Sept.


Eric

Chris Cass
06-30-2004, 08:54 AM
Hi Eric,

Can't argue the point, I'm just a bar box player. So, I'll agree and keep my mouth on hold. LOL

Regards,

C.C.

Eric.
06-30-2004, 10:14 AM
Chris,

It's not like I'm a World Beater either. I was just throwing my 2 cents into the pot. Jsut my observations, hope I didn't offend you.


Eric

Chris Cass
06-30-2004, 01:36 PM
You offend me? No way, your the best and besides, who am I gonna talk to in Va.? HAHAHAHA For hrs and hrs.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SPetty
06-30-2004, 07:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> ...and besides, who am I gonna talk to in Va.? <hr /></blockquote>Um, I'll be there... And I know some other folks who'll be there too...

Chris Cass
06-30-2004, 11:17 PM
Your getting jumping lessons MISSY.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif,

C.C.~~first from Tom and then from me. Tom will show you the full cue and I'll show you with my Stealth and I have a LePro tip to prove it.

SPetty
07-01-2004, 04:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Your getting jumping lessons... <hr /></blockquote>WooHoo! Just be forewarned, however, that Mr. JumpMeister himself, Sid_Vicious, has already tried! And I printed out your instructions and laid them on the table and tried again! Still not jumping... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Well, I jumped once... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Barbara
07-01-2004, 05:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Your getting jumping lessons... <hr /></blockquote>

Me too!! Me too!!!

Robin Dodson gave me a Frog and showed me once how to jump, but that was with the model she was using and mine had a full and rounded tip. So I had Barry cut it flat and low like a lot of people suggested, but haven't tried since.

Hey! It's not like I want to damage my table's cloth...

Barbara~~~but then again, if cue balls were supposed to fly, God would've put wings on them... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

(also secrectly says, "Wingardium leviosa, wingardium leviosa") /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Chris Cass
07-01-2004, 10:49 PM
There goes my mail order business. I knew it wouldn't work. Don't sweat it though. I'll get you there. I did Heide and shes jumping like a frog. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

C.C.~~it's all in the wrist....

Chris Cass
07-01-2004, 10:52 PM
Hi Barbara,

You'll need some roundness if you need to jump draw. Unless, you have a ceramic or phenolic tip. Then, flat is good. You know Barbara, you just need a small peice of cloth to put under the cb to save the table cloth. Also, just to practice with.

Regards,

C.C.

Rod
07-01-2004, 11:26 PM
SPetty

Don't mean to butt in but. lol All you need is enough elevation for the desired jump. Then when the cue actually hits the c/b have very light, and I mean a light hold on the handle. Just pretend you have a favorite worm or small creature on the handle. You don't want to kill your favorite do you? Besides it would get messy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif If you pay attention you'll notice your hand wants to tighten up. don't let it. It will trap the c/b if you do. It still jumps but not near as high and it slides forward before it leaves the table bed. That can mean failure in many jumps but especially in close up jumps. Without grip pressure it goes hoppity hop hop. lol

Rod

Chris Cass
07-02-2004, 07:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> SPetty

Don't mean to butt in but. lol All you need is enough elevation for the desired jump. Then when the cue actually hits the c/b have very light, and I mean a light hold on the handle. Just pretend you have a favorite worm or small creature on the handle. You don't want to kill your favorite do you? Besides it would get messy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif If you pay attention you'll notice your hand wants to tighten up. don't let it. It will trap the c/b if you do. It still jumps but not near as high and it slides forward before it leaves the table bed. That can mean failure in many jumps but especially in close up jumps. Without grip pressure it goes hoppity hop hop. lol

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Now what am I suppose to do at the Open. Geez Rod, I guess I'll have to get a light and show some hand puppets on the wall. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I can do a dog and a bird. Might have to learn some more. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~will be looking for my brother Rod. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara
07-02-2004, 07:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> I did Heide and shes jumping like a frog. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

C.C.~~it's all in the wrist.... <hr /></blockquote>

Don't get me started.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara

Leviathan
07-02-2004, 07:36 AM
Barbara, you're a VERY BAD GIRL!

AS...LMAO!

ras314
07-02-2004, 10:09 AM
Back when there was no BIH there weren't many tournaments in my area. So you had better rate your opponet pretty quick before you got in too deep, no limit on what you could lose or win except the game was liable to last till someone went busted. One of the first things I learned to watch for was how fast a player could adjust to different equipement.

What I considered a top player would pick up on table speed and bank angles, ect. in just a few shots. Didn't much matter about table size, pocket dimensions or any of the stuff I worry about nowadays.

Rod
07-02-2004, 10:41 AM
Aww CC you'll have lots of stuff to do. I thought another voice might help SPetty with a head start Hey I can do a rabbit. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif If you learn more tricks maybe you can take it on the road. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif CARNEVAL HBO had a series last year. I really liked those episodes. They were suppose to do another series this year since the ending was left open to imagination.

~~~rod, gotta do more light shows, or CC will be a step ahead. lol

Chris Cass
07-02-2004, 12:45 PM
I don't know about that Rod. I keep burning my hands on the dang light bulb. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~Spot ya 2 dogs and a leaf on a race to 5. lol

Popcorn
07-02-2004, 06:41 PM
Quote
"a top player would pick up on table speed and bank angles, ect. in just a few shots."

No way, not on a trap bar table, I don't care who they are. As you are running out on them, they can't get position on two balls, they panic once they find they are helpless. It could take all night and at that point they may be busted.

Chris Cass
07-02-2004, 10:45 PM
Hi Popcorn,

Reminds me of a tourney that I had to bar hop down the street to play each match. They call it a pub crawl out here. Anyway, Me and this guy had to play in this one place and it was a terrible experience. The cb was a red dot and not the red circle and the rails roll really quick. The cloth was barely dry from the humidity and rolled not only like mud but wasn't balanced.

Now, every shot was unpredictable. The rails would rebound like sling shots and that cb was all over the place. If you slow rolled the cb, it would roll off. There was no doing anything by the numbers. The guy I played was from there and new what to expect. I wasn't waisting anytime trying to get used to a table in a race to 5. So, I did my best to just try to judge the rail speed and forget the cloth. I used the wedge and didn't care what part of it either. I won but that was tough.

Regards,

C.C.

SPetty
07-05-2004, 04:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Don't mean to butt in but... Just pretend you have a favorite worm or small creature on the handle. <hr /></blockquote>Please feel free to butt in any time. Your butt is always welcome! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif Thanks for the extra advice - I'm not sure I've heard it put that way before. I'll let you know if that works!

Are you suggesting my favorite worm is between my finger and the cue instead of at the bottom of the bottle? hahaha, just kidding - I don't drink stuff with worms... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris Cass
07-05-2004, 10:00 PM
Do you check the bottle after it's done or before? hahahahaha