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View Full Version : Anyone test breakstick setups with a speedgun?



woody_968
07-04-2004, 05:41 PM
Has anyone here ever tested, or seen test results, of someone trying different weight cues while clocking the speed with a radar gun? I know you would have to have a wide range of people to test on to get consistent results, and even then Im sure some people would go against the norm, but would like to see if there is a consistent weight that gives the best speed.

Would be interested to see similar test using different tips as well.

ceebee
07-05-2004, 10:34 AM
I use a Radar Gun, to test my products. The Break Shot can be described best as a function of Physics. A 6 ounce Cue Ball can be struck with anything weighing 6 ounces or more & develop some speed. An 18 ounce cue will propel the Cue Ball right nicely. Sending a 6 ounce Cue Ball into a rack at 20 mph is just about 30 foot a second.

REMEMBER... all that energy is passed on to the "Rack of Balls", thru a very small surface area, so the AMOUNT of "PSI or Energy In" is through the roof. The Women Professionals & some of the Men Professionals now stroke a moderate speed Break Shot, in order to employ "Accuracy of Hit".

Physics says that it's easier to get a lighter Cue up to a functional speed QUICKER, so an 18 ounce Cue is easier to stroke faster than a 22 ounce Cue. But, experience tells us that a heavier cue is more accurate, so the "middle of the road" must be found.

There are a few bits of criteria to be examined in a Break Cue. The Tip needs to be hard, but not neccessarily Phenolic, & have about a Half Dollar radius. A Phenolic tip will not control a Cue Ball. If you do not hit the Cue Ball dead center & the Lead Ball dead center... who knows where the Cue Ball will end up. This is the drawback in using Phenolic. The Shaft must be stiff, this imparts a greater amount of energy to the Cue Ball. The last piece of the puzzle is a great balance.

RedHell
07-05-2004, 11:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A Phenolic tip will not control a Cue Ball. If you do not hit the Cue Ball dead center &amp; the Lead Ball dead center... who knows where the Cue Ball will end up. This is the drawback in using Phenolic. <hr /></blockquote>

CeeBee, can you explain this a little... What would cause a harder tip not to control the cueball...

That statement surpises me as I'm able to control a cue ball with a phenolic. Just like any other tip, it's a balance between power and accuracy.

The only down side to a phenolic (or any harder tip for that matter) has more to do with a level cue than an off center hit.

If you jump drive the cueball in the slate on the break it will jump more easily with hard tip than soft tip...

ceebee
07-05-2004, 01:53 PM
I should not have used the word CONTROL in a general statement. I've spoken in generalities &amp; expressed an opinion. I cannot control the Cue Ball, using a Phenolic tip unless I hit center ball, maybe Earl Strickland can or you can. Cueing with a Phenolic tip off-center is difficult at best.

I find the Break Shot is generally hit with centerball hit &amp; the control is maintained by striking the Cue Ball correctly &amp; hitting the lead ball accurately too. The Phenolic tip does not work well for me on the Break Shot. I love it for my Jump Cue though...

Sid_Vicious
07-05-2004, 01:58 PM
Don't mean to answer for Ceebee but I'll venture to say that his answer might be that any miss from hitting center CB, intentional or unintentional, has unpredictable results. My breaker with the Bakelite tip pops the rack like thunder, but it will also slip off of the CB quick if I let any flaw into my aim point, and it definetly loses lots of speed even on a slight but detectable "bunt". I always hit dead center, no cut breaking so If I slip off of a CB, I address what I did wrong, and it is not a lack chalk that's to blame(I break with no chalk most of the time) if you hit square in the center on whitie. Fix the stroke. I to can control the CB with a phenolic, bakelite, super hard "anything" tips, but I do it carefully. I play a decent game using my Lucasi JC, horsing around mind you, but I can control within limits with it...sid

Chris Cass
07-05-2004, 03:07 PM
Hi ya RedHell,

I would too like to add to Charlies and Sid' posts. When ever your breaking you want maximum transfer of power to the rack. This can be done with any tip. As long as you hit it dead flat. Any english applied is loss of power. Even the slightest spin on the cb loses some power.

I break with a LaPro tip and I'll hit it as square as possible and sometimes the cb will pop back to ctr table and squat whitey and when it doesn't and gets spining in reverse or whatever, I know I lost power. You could still get good action off the balls but ideal is max transfer without english or spin as you will.

What Charlie was saying in laymans terms is that with the Phenolic tips, you must hit dead flat or the results can be more divistanting. Me, if I hit off ctr with a phenolic I'll be looking for whitey to fly off the table. Someone like Sid persay has put many hrs with the jump and the break with hard tips and phenolic tips. Sid' experience and expertise is better than I'd say most here in this matter. He also probably hits dead ctr more than most too. He knows the importance of what the break means as well as Charlie and his trainer. Both have put many hrs of intense trainning. That's what I need to do too. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~control is the name of the game. The break is soooo important. It's worth the 7 ball with some. Also, in a hill hill game I don't have to tell you what you have to have. (control)

woody_968
07-05-2004, 06:09 PM
I agree (duh) that a solid hit is the most important aspect of the break. In fact many people I know would break better and more consistent if they quit trying to throw their bodies into the break and concentrated on solid contact.

Thats one reason for the original post, I have quit trying to "slam" them and was wanting to know if there really was a great deal of difference between weights or tips using the same amount of effort.

Thanks for all the replys, Ill keep reading as they come /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

TommyT
07-05-2004, 07:49 PM
I break with a DZ cue with a cueball ferrule, 13.25 shaft with a strong taper. It has a phenolic tip and hits a ton.
Lately I've been using a tip pick to poke holes in the tip and have found my control has gotten much better. You have to lean on it pretty good to poke the holes but it really works.

TommyT /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
07-05-2004, 08:32 PM
woody, It's what ever works for you. Some players might swing a 21 OZ cue, while others like 18 OZ. I can tell you though, if you use one to light or to heavy for your own personal strength/rhythm you'll loose consistency. Personally I can't swing a cue that is heavy. They start feeling like a wagon tongue. LOL No not the little red kiddie kind. To light and can't feel the weight.

Tony, a guy that use to post here from Canada wrote some results one time. It wasn't about speed necessarily it was about accuracy and results. I don't think with a radar gun though, because it really doesn't matter. What matters is hitting the c/b and head ball square. A local pro and some others tested different weights as I recall. The conclusion was, with a lighter cue you might hit the balls harder. But the lighter cue might not have been as accurate.

At some point there is a trade off and that is individual. They/he felt that lighter cues may not swing as straight because of the lack of weight. It is up to you to find what works with your game. What someone else uses is of little value.

Rod

mike_in_iowa
07-05-2004, 09:04 PM
everybody here agrees that hitting the rack square is the most important thing. You can hear that so many times before you finally let up on the break and break with control.
IMO ceebee's breakrak is the best tool out there. He won't promote his product here but I think for $125 there is nothing better for your game. (this assumes you can run 3 friggin balls)

Rod
07-05-2004, 10:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
(this assumes you can run 3 friggin balls)

<hr /></blockquote>

Well I'm in, most of the time anyway. LOL I agree with everyone BTW. It's just that the cue weight can be a factor in whether you hit them square. Like you said, practice. That will tell someone if they like the weight. I see some players go over or under an ounce from their regular cue. That is a dramatic change. They might buy one thinking the difference is ok. But when they receive it could be to far off. I guess it depends on how weight sensitive they are. Then there is the balance, it could be butt heavy or to far forward. It sure makes a difference so anyone buying one should do a test drive if possible. Hit some with a friends cue or whatever. If not better be sure or waist some doe.

Rod

RedHell
07-06-2004, 08:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ceebee:</font><hr> I should not have used the word CONTROL in a general statement. I've spoken in generalities &amp; expressed an opinion. I cannot control the Cue Ball, using a Phenolic tip unless I hit center ball, maybe Earl Strickland can or you can. Cueing with a Phenolic tip off-center is difficult at best.

I find the Break Shot is generally hit with centerball hit &amp; the control is maintained by striking the Cue Ball correctly &amp; hitting the lead ball accurately too. The Phenolic tip does not work well for me on the Break Shot. I love it for my Jump Cue though... <hr /></blockquote>

OK now I understand better what you mean. I didn't mean to say I could break like Archer with a phenolic, heck, I can't break like him with a lethear tip. But, like with any other tip, I can control the cue ball when I use a balance break. Of course I give away cueball speed, but with the increase of precision I get a good spread.

RedHell
07-06-2004, 08:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I to can control the CB with a phenolic, bakelite, super hard "anything" tips, but I do it carefully. <hr /></blockquote>

Well, that was pretty much my point. But wouldn't that apply to any tip ?

RedHell
07-06-2004, 08:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What Charlie was saying in laymans terms is that with the Phenolic tips, you must hit dead flat or the results can be more divistanting. Me, if I hit off ctr with a phenolic I'll be looking for whitey to fly off the table <hr /></blockquote>

I guess by dead flat you mean with a cue as level as possible... I can see this and totaly agree with it. A softer tip will be more fogiven if you're not as level as possible due to the compression of the tip. But with a level cue, I think it isn't harder to hit off center and use a cut break with a phenolic than another tip.

Sid_Vicious
07-06-2004, 08:40 AM
My point is that the harder the tip, the more near center ball proximities one must orbit around when using english. I can't tell you how many people say to me "I can't spin with that tip(any of my hard tips), and I'd wager they would throw up if they tried to use my breaker or my JC for any kind of spin shot. I can personally get english with a dry, hard tip, but I must stay within a tip or tip-and-half from center. I use that as an example, cuz chalk is free. If need be I could gamble for cash with the stipulation that neither one of us uses chalk, and with my hard tips too. It would be more forgiving to use maybe an Elkmaster tip, but I'll not steered to anything but my hard tips, for I feel they are the best for an overall game. You are certainly correct that being careful with any english is premier, and yet it's a matter of degrees(IMPO). It's all in what you personally decide to model your stroke toward, softer tips grab more but I don't care for the way the CB comes off of those tips. I played a little yesterday with my breaker w/bakelite tip and it felt good, spun the CB well, and came off the CB nicely for my stroke,,,I was pleasantly surprised. I plan on trying that cue in more depth for playing, should be interesting...sid~~~always seems to want to tinker

SpiderMan
07-07-2004, 08:42 AM
Robert Byrne performed a similar experiment years ago, which is detailed in his "Standard Book of Pool and Billiards". He didn't use a radar gun, but rather Newtonian physics. He took the end rail off a table and calculated the velocity of the cueball based upon how far it traveled before striking the ground. He used several testers and a collection of cues.

To my knowlege, this book was the first publication to quantify the speed advantage of breaking with a lighter cue. While his speed measurements probably had considerable variation, his overal results were self-consistent and statistically significant. It's an interesting read.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Has anyone here ever tested, or seen test results, of someone trying different weight cues while clocking the speed with a radar gun? I know you would have to have a wide range of people to test on to get consistent results, and even then Im sure some people would go against the norm, but would like to see if there is a consistent weight that gives the best speed.

Would be interested to see similar test using different tips as well. <hr /></blockquote>

woody_968
07-07-2004, 09:06 AM
Now that you mention it I think I remember reading something like that in his book, I will dust it off and take a look.