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View Full Version : Problems getting draw tight on the rail



raistlin
07-07-2004, 12:50 AM
Howdy all,

Got a bit of a problem right now with this shot:

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Basically any time I try to get draw when the cb is tight to the rail (cueing down onto the cb), it all goes a little pear-shaped.

I have put a great deal of time into this shot on the practice table all to no avail. Any ideas?

Cheers

Dave Q

Rod
07-07-2004, 01:26 AM
I have a thought, don't shoot it. Your chances of making it with position is terrible, let alone make it if it comes up in a game. Either play for a bank, follow out towards center table or play to a safe. Your playing a long masse shot and the c/b has to be hit dead center. Any side english at all and it's a miss. You won't see pro's shooting that shot if it means anything, so why would you? There is an option to stun the ball over for a cut down the long rail but once again your jacked up.

Rod

Anonamus
07-07-2004, 05:49 AM
Try using follow. In the diagram it looks like you have an angle to come off the bottom rail. If you use some running english you may be able to spin it back up the table for a cut shot on the second ball.

Wally_in_Cincy
07-07-2004, 06:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote raistlin:</font><hr> ...pear-shaped....<hr /></blockquote>

This is the second time in 2 days I have heard this term. The other was on another forum frequented by Brits. Must be a Brit thing.

re: your shot. Sorry, I have trouble just making that, let alone drawing the ball. Perhaps Corey Dueul can help you. After all he did make this shot in the 2002 Mosconi Cup.

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

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freakin' amazing /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Popcorn
07-07-2004, 08:04 AM
You must be quite a player that the rest of your game is so perfected you consume your practice time working on this shot.

Chris Cass
07-07-2004, 08:14 AM
Hi raistlin,

That's not that hard of a shot however, you could guarentee you make the ball and roll up an inch and bank the 2 cross-side. Do your self a favor and take Popcorn' and Rod' advice and not try to perfect the game. The game isn't perfect. Trying to do too much with the cb is why most people miss. When you miss, think of KISS.

Do you know what is the worst thing a pool player can hear?

Regards,

C.C.

bill190
07-07-2004, 08:24 AM
So far as my experimenting goes, for draw, you need a level hit. When you jack your stick up, it becomes a Masse'. (That's when you get an arc or pear shape.) May want to experiment with Masse' shots. Or if you are good at kicking, experiment with kick shots. Also try banging the heck out of it with high follow (poke and pray).

ceebee
07-07-2004, 08:24 AM
Cueing this shot is difficult because it's a DRAW Jump Shot, hopefully without too much jump. I'm assuming you have no problem getting some DRAW on the Cue Ball, but not straight back as shown in the picture. If the Cue Ball isn't struck accurately (center of the Cue Ball strike &amp; straight follow thru) you will get the MASSE' you speak of. If you are making the ball, you are fortunate.

The shot is difficult at best, for anyone. Better players do their best to stay away from shooting off a rail. This shot is one of the reasons.

raistlin
07-07-2004, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You must be quite a player that the rest of your game is so perfected you consume your practice time working on this shot. <hr /></blockquote>

Not at all, however I do feel that working on getting a decent amount of draw when the cb is frozen is a worthwhile use of practice time. How many times has your opponent played safe and put you tight on the rail? Happened to me on the weekend about 6 times in the one match. When I find a problem like this in my game (ie an inability to deal with certain situations) I try to figure it out. Do you work on deficiencies in your game popcorn?

Frank_Glenn
07-07-2004, 08:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote raistlin:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You must be quite a player that the rest of your game is so perfected you consume your practice time working on this shot. <hr /></blockquote>

Not at all, however I do feel that working on getting a decent amount of draw when the cb is frozen is a worthwhile use of practice time. How many times has your opponent played safe and put you tight on the rail? Happened to me on the weekend about 6 times in the one match. When I find a problem like this in my game (ie an inability to deal with certain situations) I try to figure it out. Do you work on deficiencies in your game popcorn? <hr /></blockquote>

Hit the rail about 3/4" in from the nose (A in the diagram). It's hard to do and hard on the equipment, but it can be done. When done effectivly, it destroys your opponent. I have seen this shot made several times by one individual:

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http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

RedHell
07-07-2004, 09:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Do you know what is the worst thing a pool player can hear? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes! his cell phone ringing when he knows it's his wife calling him to come back home ? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Rich R.
07-07-2004, 09:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>Do you know what is the worst thing a pool player can hear? <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr>Yes! his cell phone ringing when he knows it's his wife calling him to come back home ? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>
That is why you have to explain, to your wife, that it is very bad etiquette, to have your cell phone on, while playing pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Frank_Glenn
07-07-2004, 09:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>

Do you know what is the worst thing a pool player can hear?

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

That would be the 3 (S&amp;W) or 4 (Colt) clicks as the hammer is pulled back and the cylinder rolls. YMMV /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

RedHell
07-07-2004, 09:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
That is why you have to explain, to your wife, that it is very bad etiquette, to have your cell phone on, while playing pool.

Rich R.
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> EXACTLY !!! </font color>

Popcorn
07-07-2004, 10:30 AM
Yes, I prioritize them. I don't waste time on a shot that I would not play. I think you were given quite a few options how to better play the shot. If it comes up and I have no other choice then I will shoot it as best I can but not worry about it. Be more concerned about making simple shots and simple position plays consistently. Practice the simple parts of the game till you raise them to a level of genius. Good pool is doing simple things consistently as you improve the simple side of the game the difficult just seem to come and is not so difficult any more. It is that way with every sport. I know some of the best players that play the game and that is how they practice. I have never seen a pro practice useless shots, there are too many more important shots that come up in every game played that require their attention. Beyond that do what you wish.

woody_968
07-07-2004, 10:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Practice the simple parts of the game till you raise them to a level genius. Good pool is doing simple things consistently as you improve the simple side of the game the difficult just seem to come and is not so difficult any more. <hr /></blockquote>

Tap, Tap, Tap!!!

SPetty
07-07-2004, 11:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr> Hit the rail about 3/4" in from the nose (A in the diagram). <hr /></blockquote>Hit the rail? With the tip of the cue? ("A" was still in its starting place on the diagram...) If you hit the rail, how does that make the cue ball go? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SPetty
07-07-2004, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Do you know what is the worst thing a pool player can hear?
<hr /></blockquote>"You lose. Rack 'em!"

Bob_Jewett
07-07-2004, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote raistlin:</font><hr>I have put a great deal of time into this shot on the practice table all to no avail. Any ideas?<hr /></blockquote>
Sure, practice a shot you can make. Place the cue ball ten fingers off the cushion and try the shot. If you make it, try it at nine fingers, and so on. When you miss (shot or position) make the shot one finger easier.

The general philosophy of this kind of practice is to adjust the difficulty to your current skill level, which is what the adjustment of difficulty after each try accomplishes. This is discussed in the free "Basics Clinic" handout on the website listed below as "Progressive Practice."

One advantage of practicing this way is that you will quickly learn that if the cue ball is, for example, within three fingers of the cushion, you need to find a shot other than draw.

JohnnyP
07-07-2004, 03:35 PM
Hi, Bob

I got lucky and made this one in a tournament last week. The cueball was one finger from the rail.

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wei table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

woody_968
07-07-2004, 05:02 PM
Hi Johnny, great shot. Were there balls blocking that would have kept you from going forward to play the 7 in the side or upper corner? Just wanted to know if you were forced into shooting it the way you did or if your a glutton for punishment /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Frank_Glenn
07-07-2004, 05:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr> Hit the rail about 3/4" in from the nose (A in the diagram). <hr /></blockquote>Hit the rail? With the tip of the cue? ("A" was still in its starting place on the diagram...) If you hit the rail, how does that make the cue ball go? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

It pushes the rail out and pushes the cueball away from the rail and then the cue tip hits it below center. I figured out what he was doing because there was a chalk trail on the rail. Like I said, it's hard on the equipment and you need a monster stroke. I can't do it. I would cross bank the ball or play a safe.

woody_968
07-07-2004, 05:45 PM
Frank, not trying to be picky, as I dont think I could play that shot anyway /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif But wouldnt the shot you describe be a foul? The cueball would be moved by something other than the tip. Just trying to clarify so if I ever see this come up I would no how to call it.

Of course at shot speed one would have to be looking for it, and most of the guys I play with would probably never even think of such a shot.

JohnnyP
07-07-2004, 06:36 PM
I was playing a much better player, so I thought I'd show some spirit and go for it. I jacked up, looked at the cue ball last, then fired. I never hit one so good.

I don't trust my normal draw stroke, though. I can roll the ball pretty well, but they tell my I snap my wrist when I try to slide the cueball, and will often miscue or scoop the ball. Maybe I'd play better with a cast on my wrist.

Chris Cass
07-07-2004, 06:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Do you know what is the worst thing a pool player can hear? <hr /></blockquote>

For RedHell, Rich, Frank(LOL), and SPetty,

That was very close but that wasn't what I was thinking. The worst thing a pool player can hear is,

Nice try or Hell of a try. This only means, You Missed. Like hearing the great try thing makes it easier to sit in the chair. LOL Not for me. Matter of fact, listen to it when you hear it. Then judge for yourself. LOL kind of equal to, Nice tries are like Nice guys, they both finish last. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~now I've done it. it's like a jingle you can't get out of your head. you'll hate me. LOL

woody_968
07-07-2004, 06:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>Like hearing the great try thing makes it easier to sit in the chair.
<hr /></blockquote>

ROFL

Chris Cass
07-07-2004, 06:49 PM
Hi Woody,

I noticed Frank hasn't replied and I thought I could shed some light. No foul, just rough on the rail. The rail compresses as your driving your cue through it. A favorite of Sang Lee (God Bless him) and our very own #### Leonard. You can draw a ball that's frozen to the rail. There's a big problem with this particular shot though. The distance between the cb and the ob down table is a lot of resistance to fade. IMHO

Regards,

C.C.

Rod
07-07-2004, 06:56 PM
Tell you what CC they can shoot those against me all night. Hell I'll cheer em on. lol

Frank_Glenn
07-07-2004, 06:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Frank, not trying to be picky, as I dont think I could play that shot anyway /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif But wouldnt the shot you describe be a foul? The cueball would be moved by something other than the tip. Just trying to clarify so if I ever see this come up I would no how to call it.

Of course at shot speed one would have to be looking for it, and most of the guys I play with would probably never even think of such a shot. <hr /></blockquote>

Get real, of course it's a foul. It's a proposition shot. No one is going to do this in a game, at least I don't think they would. I saw Larry Nevel doing it on a bar box at DCC. He did one similar, but not frozen jacked up one handed!

woody_968
07-07-2004, 07:06 PM
Thanks, I assumed it was, but in your original post you said you had seen the shot made several times, I didnt know it wasnt in a game /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Chris Cass
07-07-2004, 07:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr>
Get real, of course it's a foul. It's a proposition shot. No one is going to do this in a game, at least I don't think they would. I saw Larry Nevel doing it on a bar box at DCC. He did one similar, but not frozen jacked up one handed! <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Frank,

Larry and Chad Vilmont has been doing this shot forever. They shoot it when they know everyone is watching and just feel like messing around. You know those times when it's slow and nothing to do in the hall. It looks like this,

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http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

They're both frozen to the rail and it's basically the same shot. I do this one myself but it's all in fun when bordem sets in.

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%Ye2D3%Zq9K7%[J8Z6%\C4R8%]D4R3%^d0C9%eB0`7
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The lines are the cb' reaction. What I find fun is the cb goes two rails really slow and it grabs on the third and takes off like a bandit. LOL

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif,

C.C.

stickman
07-07-2004, 07:44 PM
If you're determined to make this shot, Bob's advice is good. I would suggest practicing this shot instead:

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With a little practice, you can make this shot with a high percentage. Shooting the shot with the butt jacked up is very difficult for even the best players. JMHO

Jim