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View Full Version : Moving eyes from object ball to cueball.



woody_968
07-09-2004, 12:26 AM
Over the last few days I had been experimenting with using the reflection of light on the cueball in relation to the reflection of light on the object ball to help with my aiming. I am a seven in APA and know how to see where I should hit the objectball, but have always felt something was missing when it came to lining up the shot.

The first day I couldnt believe it, I was playing with more confidence and making balls from everywhere. Second day I was back to my insecure self /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif . I knew I had to be getting close to something so I thought I would go back to the basics. I got out the tape "how to play pool right", during this video he mentioned that when moving from the upright postion behind the cueball down into your stance you should look back and forth from the cueball to the objectball or you may get yourself out of line. I had seen this before but for some reason it finally clicked. The first day I had been moving my eyes back and forth. The second day I was back to my old habbit of keeping my eye on the OB while lowering into my stance.

I worked tonight on moving my eyes back and forth while getting into my stance and I cant belive the difference! Much more confident, and I can feel that I am in a much better postion. It seems like I can keep the line of the shot in my mind much more clear by doing this.

Am I on the right track or am I bonkers?

bluewolf
07-09-2004, 02:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> . I am a seven in APA and know how to see where I should hit the objectball, but have always felt something was missing when it came to lining up the shot.

I knew I had to be getting close to something so I thought I would go back to the basics. I got out the tape "how to play pool right", during this video he mentioned that when moving from the upright postion behind the cueball down into your stance you should look back and forth from the cueball to the objectball or you may get yourself out of line. I had seen this before but for some reason it finally clicked. The first day I had been moving my eyes back and forth. The second day I was back to my old habbit of keeping my eye on the OB while lowering into my stance.

I worked tonight on moving my eyes back and forth while getting into my stance and I cant belive the difference! Much more confident, and I can feel that I am in a much better postion. It seems like I can keep the line of the shot in my mind much more clear by doing this.

Am I on the right track or am I bonkers? <hr /></blockquote>

When you talk about moving your eyes back and forth from ob to cb while GOING INTO your stance, this is not something I have heard of. What I have heard of prior to going down into the stance, is looking at the ob, where you want the cb to go, look back at the ob and have an awareness from the corner of ones eye where the cb is, but not focussing on it specifically.

In looking at where I wanted to strike the ob, with the cue ball at the bottom of my vision(while standing), but not specifically focussed on it, helped my shooting. Then I go ahead get into the correct stance that lines up the shot to that memory and moving my eyes back and forth, locking on the ob before pulling the trigger. All I can say it that i am not aware of doing much anything when going down on my stance. i tend to assess where i need to hit and then move quickly down into position for the shot. If things do not look right, i stand back up and change my alignment to a better one, then get back down to shoot.

I have not heard much about what eye pattern to use while going down on the shot, so will be interested in hearing what others here say about that.

Laura

pooltchr
07-09-2004, 05:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> I have not heard much about what eye pattern to use while going down on the shot, so will be interested in hearing what others here say about that.

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

Laura, When you were in Randy's class, how much time did you spend working on eye patterns?

bluewolf
07-09-2004, 06:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> I have not heard much about what eye pattern to use while going down on the shot, so will be interested in hearing what others here say about that.

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

Laura, When you were in Randy's class, how much time did you spend working on eye patterns? <hr /></blockquote>

Well, I went to randy's school when I had been playing pool for six weeks. We got a lot of info and that was precisely why I wanted a refresher, for the part I could not take in. Now this is what I remember and you can correct me if I am wrong.

The object ball must be looked at for a significant amount of time so that the image is imprinted in the brain. The good look at the object ball, including decisions about how to hit it, speed, any english was to take place while standing. Thinking=standing.

The player has an address. The player lines up their cue and addresses the table while still standing.

The player determines the hit on ob by cb while still standing.

The player goes down on the ball. If they are not in the correct alignment, they move their feet or stand up and reposition. If, once in their stance, the shot looks like a miss, they raise up to get a higher look at it(while still in the stance), called a peekaboo, or stand to relook and reposition the alignment if needed.

Once down on the shot, the player uses a repeatable pep, culminating with locking the eyes on the ob prior to pulling the trigger. In the prestroke, the player pauses at the cueball prior to pulling trigger, pauses at the backswing, follows and freezes.

So, I remember sizing up the shot including a good look at that ob and where it will be struck while standing and the eye patterns when down on the shot, but do not recall any instructions about using eye patterns while 'going down' into the stance.

If I missed something, please be more specific than the above question. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

Leviathan
07-09-2004, 06:21 AM
There was another thread about this recently. You might want to look at the thread that begins with Leviathan's post When and how does one align cue with aim point. I think it can be very useful to move your eyes back and forth between the CB and OB as you settle into position, but not everyone agrees with this.

Leviathan

Popcorn
07-09-2004, 07:50 AM
Your standing at the counter and the guy comes running up and says, " I can't believe it, I just discovered what I have been doing wrong, now I am making everything", then tomorrow comes. Practice your fundamentals but don't get nuts over, " Tonight I played with my wallet in my other pocket and I can't believe how much better I am playing".

Wally_in_Cincy
07-09-2004, 07:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> ..." Tonight I played with my wallet in my other pocket and I can't believe how much better I am playing". <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah that might not work, but my lucky t-shirt can make me at least a ball better /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DennyS
07-09-2004, 08:13 AM
Personal Eye Pattern

There are three ways during your rhythm, which your eyes can make their final movement from Tip/Cue Ball, to focus on the target:
1. Before Backstroke
2. During Backstroke
3. At the pause

This movement is known as your “ Personal Eye Pattern”.
While the Target can change from shot to shot, your eye pattern should remain consistent.

The key is that the eyes are locked on the target before moving to the finish. This helps to ensure that focus has been established and that the eyes are stationary which helps to deliver a smooth stroke and to stay down on the shot. Eyes in “transition” could prove dangerous!

Instructors can utilize the eye patterns to help identify what is going on mentally with each student. The eyes move whenever the mind is searching for some information. If the eye pattern changes from shot to shot, the mind is not in a consistent Firing Order.

I hope this helps.

woody_968
07-09-2004, 08:39 AM
Popcorn, thats why I didnt post after the first day that I played better. I didnt post this because I made more balls, we all have deadstroke days, they come and go. If I go play today and cant make a ball I will still stand by the fact that this puts ME in a much better position over the cueball. I had heard this before but it didnt really click until now so I thought I would post it to see if it would help anyone else.

Popcorn
07-09-2004, 08:57 AM
I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I have seen a lot players just get so caught up in aiming systems, shooting at lights and so forth and they never get any better. I know one guy, (This guy bets real high by the way) who after 30 years of playing still can't decide how he should place his feet. Every time you see him he is moving his head, aiming differently, changing his stance or grip or bridge. He is a smart man, he was a concert violinist, yet pool eludes. There is no magic trick that makes one a better player. You just practice with proper fundamentals and make the game as naturel as you can till it is second nature. The game should play easy, all that other stuff make the game harder I believe. Some of it may be of value as a training aid but in real play it has to just happen. Next time you run into a pro ask what aiming system he or she uses. One of those that are going to the Open, take a poll of the players and find what systems they use and report back. You won't need much paper. My point was, I think a player may sidetrack them selves with a lot of that silliness. Just my opinion

woody_968
07-09-2004, 09:00 AM
BW, I was doing (or thought I was) the same as you, being "aware" of where the cueball was when lowering into my stance. There were many times when I would get down something wasnt right and I couldnt figure out why, I believe I was losing track of the cueball as I was lowering and getting out of line.

Popcorn
07-09-2004, 09:08 AM
If it proves to work, then develop it into your game till it becomes second nature. I have a little bit of a squat that I got from Marcel Camp, sort of a snooker stance. I used to play stiff legged and when I relaxed it was much better. This is like 35 years ago and I still play that way. You may have found something that will help you improve.

woody_968
07-09-2004, 09:14 AM
Popcorn I didnt take it as sarcasim, and always enjoy hearing your opinion. I agree with you that to play well you shouldnt have to rely on a system to aim. I just look at the OB and I know where to hit it, I dont need a system for that. I just felt there was something missing when I was addressing the ball.

Im sure none of the pros would think this was much of a big deal, but I would bet if you get a chance to study their eyes as they lower some of them would be doing what I am talking about. At the least they are aware of where the cueball is while getting down to their stance. No system, just good fundamentals as you say.

Woody - always likes Popcorns input /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

rah
07-09-2004, 09:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I have seen a lot players just get so caught up in aiming systems, shooting at lights and so forth and they never get any better. I know one guy, (This guy bets real high by the way) who after 30 years of playing still can't decide how he should place his feet. Every time you see him he is moving his head, aiming differently, changing his stance or grip or bridge. He is a smart man, he was a concert violinist, yet pool eludes. There is no magic trick that makes one a better player. You just practice with proper fundamentals and make the game as naturel as you can till it is second nature. The game should play easy, all that other stuff make the game harder I believe. Some of it may be of value as a training aid but in real play it has to just happen. Next time you run into a pro ask what aiming system he or she uses. One of those that are going to the Open, take a poll of the players and find what systems they use and report back. You won't need much paper. My point was, I think a player may sidetrack them selves with a lot of that silliness. Just my opinion <hr /></blockquote>

He probably should have gone to see a psychiatrist for possibly having OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder). Prozac helps quite the mind down. My first day on prozac I ran 4 racks of 8 ball. No sh*t. Prozac takes time to build up in your system, but for some reason it zonked me the first time and I wasn't drinking either.

Popcorn
07-09-2004, 09:44 AM
I went back and reread your original post. What you are talking about in the end of the post I may have not really gotten. You are very right, how you come down on the shot may be the most important part of the shot and it needs to be done right and consistently. That is why some of the better players seem to play fast. All the preparation has been done before they even come down on the shot and when they do come down, it is so perfectly there is not much left to do but shoot. I am sorry if mis read your post a little.

rah
07-09-2004, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> BW, I was doing (or thought I was) the same as you, being "aware" of where the cueball was when lowering into my stance. There were many times when I would get down something wasnt right and I couldnt figure out why, I believe I was losing track of the cueball as I was lowering and getting out of line. <hr /></blockquote>

Add 'stepping into the shot' to your preshot routine. Your bridge hand will start to magically find the right place to land and you won't be out of line so much to begn with. Good luck.

Popcorn
07-09-2004, 09:56 AM
You are properly right, he has problems. When I said he bet high, he plays sets for like $10,000. Some on here probably know him his first name starts with a A and he is famous around the dog tracks. He asked me one time to give him lessons. I told him I don't know the first thing about giving lessons but he insisted. So we just played a little and I would try to point out a few things. He began to argue with me on everything and took everything personal. I realizes real quick this was impossible. He has taken lessons from a number of pros to no avail. He has the worst attribute someone trying to learn something can have. He is UN coach able and will not listen. It stems from his intelligence, he is super smart and he thinks he should be able to just solve the game of pool like it is a math problem. He is looking for some kind of definitive answer that will fix everything. I hope he doesn't read this board, I know he will recognize I am talking about him.

Barbara
07-09-2004, 10:16 AM
Yeah, it definitely sounds like a case of adult attention deficit disorder.

Barbara

Cueless Joey
07-09-2004, 10:39 AM
A friend of mine just diagnosed with it.
He never realized he had it until he did some reading on US News and the article there pretty much described his life. He had a battery of tests. The doctor said he is beyond behavioral theraphy. He will be put on medication.
He has a short temper and he forgets little details easily. He has trouble keeping one task in focus too.
I hope medication helps him as his ADD or ADHD is affecting his work.

pooltchr
07-09-2004, 11:09 AM
Laura,
Remember there is also the mid point when moving down on the shot. From the address position, you visualize your aiming line, pick the spot for your bridge hand and move into place. At that point you want to check your allignment again. Once you have checked your allignment from standing and mid point, that is when you settle down on the shot. This is where your eye patterns move from the cb (making sure your are going to contact it where you need to contact it) then shifting your eyes up to your target. Don't leave out that middle step...that's where your confirmation that everything "still looks good" comes in.
BTW...I hope the other thing works out well for you...keep me updated if you don't mind.
Steve

Cueless Joey
07-09-2004, 11:13 AM
Steve, not moving one's head is rarely mentioned here.
A friend of mine taught me this "trick".
Raise your eyebrows when looking at the ob.
Of course, slowing down the cue on the final practice strokes is a must. Slowing the cue also slows your head/thought.
Kim Davenport does this better than anyone imo.

pooltchr
07-09-2004, 11:26 AM
Correct, Joey. Probably not mentioned near enough, but certainly critical in maintaining your allignment. This is something I try to teach my students, but in offering suggestions here, it does sometimes seem to be forgotten.
Once you are in "SET" (down on the shot) NOTHING moves except the forearm. Absolutely, this includes the head.
Good point!

bluewolf
07-09-2004, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Laura,
Remember there is also the mid point when moving down on the shot. From the address position, you visualize your aiming line, pick the spot for your bridge hand and move into place. At that point you want to check your allignment again. Once you have checked your allignment from standing and mid point, that is when you settle down on the shot. This is where your eye patterns move from the cb (making sure your are going to contact it where you need to contact it) then shifting your eyes up to your target. Don't leave out that middle step...that's where your confirmation that everything "still looks good" comes in.
BTW...I hope the other thing works out well for you...keep me updated if you don't mind.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve,thanks for your feedback. having my own table and getting to play a lot is real fun and good for my game.

I think that once a person has learned to do those fundamental things, most of it is done naturally, like popcorn says.

It is sort of like learning to ride a bike. At first you have to learn to steer, use the brakes and so on. Then once you have learned those things, you no longer think about it, you just ride the bike. Some ride better than others and the longer you ride the better you get at it, and pool seems like that to me.

Laura

bluewolf
07-09-2004, 01:13 PM
Steve, is it not true, when you look at your signature line, that if a person does the freeze, it is impossible to move the head?

Sorry for posting again right in a row. It is just that this problem with moving the head has come up in league at all different skill levels, and to me, the solution seemed simple.

But, of course I had randy or one of his assistants standing over me for 24 hours in three days to make sure that I always did the freeze. LOL

Laura

bluewolf
07-09-2004, 04:37 PM
OK Woody. I just practiced pool and was thinking about your method. Now I will say what I do at the table. Keep in mind that I have played pool for only two years and someone else who is more advanced would more than likely do this without having to line up so much, playing by feel.

Over analyzing stuff when I first got on ccb two years ago got me nowhere so tried to stop doing it.

I went to randy gs pool school and he had words to break down every part of the process from the picking up the cue to the follow through and freeze after the hit. When I went to the table, I realized I do do those things but just do not think about it so may not have included every detail that Randy used. So, in simple terms, this is what I was doing.

I was standing back from the table with the cue across my chest like a person might hold a rifle. I had a good view of the whole table, my balls, my opponents balls, what ball I want to pocket next and where I want the cb to go.

I am standing behind the ob and seeing the line through the ob that splits the pocket (lets for now think center ball, no english). I look at that aim point on the ob as long as it takes to print it in my brain. I then walk around behind the cb, keeping my eyes on the aim point on the ob and I am seeing where the cb has to hit the ob to split the pocket.


So, I did not move my eyes back and forth, but kept the aim on the ob in my mind and view the whole time prior to stepping into the shot, The view of the cb is at the bottom of my vision while walking around and I do not really look at it that much until I am behind it. If it is a difficult shot requiring a lot of accuracy, I may look back at the cb a couple of times, but mostly am looking at the ob. Maybe this is the looking back and forth you referred to, but again, I am standing still, not going into a stance.


So I am right behind the 'line of aim'. I step into the line of aim, place my feet in the stance at the same time that I put down my bridge and have the cue pointed at the place on the cb that will strike the ob where it needs to to split the pocket. Now there are words like addressing the ball and such that others use but I am just describing my motion without using any of those words.

So now I am down in my stance, with the cue placed where it needs to be at the cb for the shot and my bridge placed where it needs to be. If something seems not quite right, I stand back up, look at the ob again and go through this again but quicker.

Then I do my preshot routine with the looking back and forth between the cb and ob. Before the final shot, I pause at the cb with the cue and lock my vision on the point of aim on the ob. I pull back (backswing) slight pause and then bring the cue through the shot, follow through and freeze.

Well, I did not know what I was doing because it is pretty natural and just do it, do not think about it. I had to pay special attention on a number of shots to see what I was doing. I did not always do things this way, but it seems to get a lot of balls in.

Hope this makes sense. If it doesn't, maybe somebody else can explain it better.

Laura

woody_968
07-09-2004, 07:25 PM
Hi BW, i too was talking about when behind the cueball. Sounds like you have a solid routine there, should serve you well.

bluewolf
07-10-2004, 06:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Hi BW, i too was talking about when behind the cueball. Sounds like you have a solid routine there, should serve you well. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks. I have not played long but have had very good instruction. Every now and then I will change something but it is infrequent and only when a professional teacher or very experienced player sees something wrong. other than that, I pretty much plod along, keep practicing and just get some better over time at the table.

Randy really did emphasize the importance of getting that image of the ob into one's brain. Before I had laser surgery, I saw all of the balls pretty blurry so could not see that place of aim, was kind of like looking at an impressionistic paiinting, and guessing, hoping my brain would eventually figure it out. Once I had that surgery, it took away the blurry so think that is part of the reason i am getting more balls in. LOL

Laura

Barbara
07-10-2004, 09:12 AM
Tell ya what, that workshop in Randy's Pool School on eye patterns was a real eye-opener! Made a huge difference with me.

Barbara~~~thinking about a refresher course...