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shoutout33
07-12-2004, 10:59 AM
Just would like to see what everyone's opinion is at on this issue. To be truthfully honest with you, I think ALL cuemakers are great in their own way, but there's always someone who stands out. Also, it doesn't have to be in any order either. Now, if someone's already done this I apologize. For me, based on what I know and who I've hit, I pick the following:

1.) Black Boar
2.) Lambros
3.) Chris Nitti

Now, like I said, these are based on what I've experienced. If you can't decide, just add however many you feel should be on the list. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rod
07-12-2004, 11:29 AM
Put a tip and shaft taper to my liking and most all custom cues would play real good. I might not like the looks but that's not the issue. Or is that part of the deal to?

Rod

Popcorn
07-12-2004, 11:36 AM
Building a cue is not brain surgery. Today all the information is out there, material sources and machines, and by the way, top quality cues can be built on the most basic of machines, the work in no better then the operator and his attention to detail. Much of the work requires close attention and those that build really clean cues usually command higher prices. The thing is though, there are a lot of top quality cue makers, too many to make a list of three. You can just make a list of the usual suspects but it doesn't really mean much. A lot of inlay doesn't make a good playing cue the cue maker makes a good playing cue. If I had to name one, I would say Dennis Searing may do as good a work as anyone. One of his cues could be used as a bench mark to judge other cues by. The real sad part is when you see shoddy work from an established cue maker. They just lose their fire and begin going through the motions after a while. I guess this can be the case in anything though.

shoutout33
07-12-2004, 12:29 PM
I understand where you guys are coming from and I agree with you. But really, all I was doing was getting an idea of what people liked based on what they've tried. I'm not trying to compare cuemakers or anything like that, but I'm sure that many pool players have tried and/or owned plenty of custom sticks and there may be a few that stand out to them.

Rod, if you don't mind, I'm kind of basing it on each cuemakers craftsmanship, shafts and all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Yeah, you could slap on a shaft, ferrule, and tip that your used to playing with and it'd make all the difference in the world, but I was looking at it from a "off-the-shelf" or stock aspect. I also noted that there may be more than three that stand out, and if this was the case, list them anyway. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

One reason I started this topic, is because I was speaking to someone about cues the other day and he said that that the best two cuemakers out there today are Richard Black and Bill Stroud...period. I'm thinking, "Only two?". But that's what he feels is the best. So I just thought, why not ask this question on the forums, but tweak it. If I did a bad thing, then I'll go take a "time-out" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

woody_968
07-12-2004, 12:55 PM
True that taking it down to 3 would be imposible. Whats best for some is not best for others. As far as craftsmanship there are several at the top of the list.

One thing I like about threads like this is you get to see some names that you may not have otherwise heard. I started playing with a Madison Bob cue (Bob Griffin) and he makes one of the best cues I have ever played with. I spent some time in his shop talking with him and was very impressed. If he makes a mistake, he starts over, simple as that. He wont send anything out that doesnt meet his standards, which is where some of the makers go wrong once they have become successful.

Rod
07-12-2004, 12:56 PM
Well to answer another way, the same cue maker could use a different shaft, tip, that was on your list. If so you might change your opinion. However if it is based more on looks, then you wouldn't. It's all to subjective really and what I think doesn't matter. The same goes for what everyone else thinks, it doesn't matter. What does matter is what you like. BTW your post is just fine, but not one I care to give a direct answer as stated above. You know almost everyone tweaks their cue from original equipment, even if it is just the tip.

Rod

Jimmy B
07-12-2004, 03:42 PM
Taking out the hit of the cue because as we all know that is subjective any list of cuemakers that doesn't have Ernie on it is flawed. Also to try and compare people like Madison Bob amd Dennis Searing to a list of the top 3 guys just isn't fair to either of them. And that is not to say those guys don't make nice cues.

1) Ginacue <---Hands down #1

2) Thomas Wayne <---Can do things nobody else even dreams
3) Bill Schick <---Overall craftsman

JB

poolplayer1988
07-12-2004, 03:46 PM
While I agree that narrowing it down to three would be damn near impossible, I would like to insert my own personal top three. They are"

1. Auerbach
2. Bludworth
3. Espiritu

My own personal preferences in no way reflects upon anyone's cuemaking abilities. I have not played with very many custom cues, so somewhere down the road I may add to the list. *Any cuemakers who would like to send me a cue to keep and play with for my analysis should PM me and I will take theirs for a test drive and give them my professional *cough* opinion.

Doug Talbot
"the White Elephant"

*Meant as a joke, but if anyone wants to send me a cue, PM me.* /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Cueless Joey
07-12-2004, 04:06 PM
Aesthetics aside, I think these three make the finest-hittin' cues, Ned Mooris, Rick Howard and Zylr.
Most desirable cues?
Gina, Szambotti and Hercek.

Rod
07-12-2004, 04:33 PM
Doug,

I've just been waiting for the invitation. I have a custom Harvard cue you might want to test drive. Problem is it is so dam ugly I'm afraid the carrier service would toss it. lol But never, never ask to use my Rocky. HA HA HA

poolplayer1988
07-12-2004, 05:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Doug,

I've just been waiting for the invitation. I have a custom Harvard cue you might want to test drive. Problem is it is so dam ugly I'm afraid the carrier service would toss it. lol But never, never ask to use my Rocky. HA HA HA <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, Rod. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Just tell me which Harvard you got and maybe I can go to Wal-Mart and get one for myself. LOL. Just kidding! I wouldn't dare ask to use your Rocky, but I also won't dare to refuse if you ask ME to shoot with it. HAHA!

Doug Talbot
"the White Elephant"

Rod
07-12-2004, 05:33 PM
The story behind Rocky. I'm not sure where I aquired it from but I came across it one day looking at my other cues. I really wanted a break cue. Linen wrap, real look like inlays although missing part of the decal. lol A well protected varnished shaft. I sanded off the protection and found a shaft with about 6 growth rings per inch. lol A long Allen weight bolt that I bottomed out moving weight forward. A tad under 19 ounces. Cut the tip down near flat and doused with super glue. The tip is hard and I only use it on a bar box. I get great results. Kind of makes you just want to hit a few balls eh?

I can beat the crap out of it and never worry. Similar to an old cutec I use to use, but it was a tad to heavy. Glad it got ripped off.

Rod

Malice
07-12-2004, 09:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote poolplayer1988:</font><hr>
3. Espiritu
<hr /></blockquote>

Here in Russ Espiritu's own backyard, serious pool players and knowledgeable cue folk consider Russ's eye for design to be top-notch, but the craftsmanship very questionable. I've seen a bunch of Russ's, and every single one has flaws. For a while he was using a crappy self-centering chuck lathe, and all of his shafts were out-of-round (very noticeable when looking at the shaft separate from the butt). Inlay work is also gappy and overly filled-in, which shows readily with age.

But no doubt, I admire his designs. He makes a pretty cue. I don't want to run the guy down, but there's no way he's in the same league with people you didn't mention, like Tim Scruggs, Bill Stroud, Richard Black, etc.

crawdaddio
07-12-2004, 10:53 PM
Here's a drive-by-quickie-list:

1)Zylr--best q i've hit with to date
2)Scruggs--classic nice hit
3)Szamboti--never played w\ one but willing to give it a try /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

SUPERSTAR
07-12-2004, 11:13 PM
BLACK BOAR!!! There IS no substitute.

SUPERSTAR

Chris Cass
07-12-2004, 11:20 PM
I think you have an addiction with the number 3. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rip
07-12-2004, 11:40 PM
I like Chris Nitti's recent work. I just received a Nitti several weeks ago and the craftsmanship is impressive and I really like the hit of his radial pin.
Here's a link to photos of the Nitti and a few others.
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ripsstuff2003/slideshow?&amp;.dir=/ff06&amp;.src=ph

Regards,
Rip

Chris Cass
07-12-2004, 11:44 PM
Too Cool RIP. Great pics.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PQQLK9
07-13-2004, 05:29 AM
Nice pictures Rip.You have a nice collection.
(still owes Rip a drink)

MosconiJr
07-13-2004, 07:01 AM
Agreeing that there are many excellent cue makers out there.......Here are my picks

Dennis Searing
Pete Tascarella
Skip Weston/Andy Gilbert (tie)

With honorable mention to up and comer Jimmy Reeves.

Mike

poolplayer1988
07-13-2004, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Malice:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote poolplayer1988:</font><hr>
3. Espiritu
<hr /></blockquote>

Here in Russ Espiritu's own backyard, serious pool players and knowledgeable cue folk consider Russ's eye for design to be top-notch, but the craftsmanship very questionable. I've seen a bunch of Russ's, and every single one has flaws. For a while he was using a crappy self-centering chuck lathe, and all of his shafts were out-of-round (very noticeable when looking at the shaft separate from the butt). Inlay work is also gappy and overly filled-in, which shows readily with age.

But no doubt, I admire his designs. He makes a pretty cue. I don't want to run the guy down, but there's no way he's in the same league with people you didn't mention, like Tim Scruggs, Bill Stroud, Richard Black, etc.
<hr /></blockquote>

I apologize for my limited amount of knowledge about "Russ's" cues. The only ONE ever played with had a fantastic hit and was a very good-looking stick with no design flaws I could detect with the naked eye. Maybe if I had brought in my micron microscope I could have found something, but nothing discernible just by simply looking at it. Sorry for my limited knowledge of cues, but my own personal opinion is just that, an opinion. Those are the only custom cues I have played with, and those are what I like. I can only say that I wish I had owned and played with other customs, but finances have forbidden. I don't know about anyone else's cues as far as hit and such. I can say that I've seen some of Bryan Mordt's (SP?) cues on AZB and they are the best craftmanship I have ever seen.

Doug Talbot
"the White Elephant"

rukiddingme
07-13-2004, 11:27 AM
Top three cuemakers whose cues I have TRIED...this is totally based on HIT...this is in no particular order.
Ed Young
Bill Schick
Mike Bender
Top 3 or 4 cues that I own and use...in no particular order
Ned Morris
Chris Nitti
Ray Schuler
Sailor...Ive been playing lots with this one lately...
Top 3 cuemakers that I'd purchase a cue from in heart beat if I won the LOTTO
Bill Schick
Richard Black
Bender

"cueitis" is an expensive disease /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
ruk

tateuts
07-13-2004, 01:40 PM
Bill Stroud (Josswest), Ernie (Gina), and Tad

All three for being the best the longest.

Honorable mention - Paul Mottey, because nobody else mentioned him.

Chris

Fred Agnir
07-13-2004, 02:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote shoutout33:</font><hr> Now, if someone's already done this I apologize. <hr /></blockquote>LOL!!! This one comes up a couple of times a year, I think.

Fred

Ernie Gutierrez
Mike Bender
Thomas Wayne
Bill Schick
Bill Stroud

That's three, right?

shoutout33
07-13-2004, 02:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Ernie Gutierrez
Mike Bender
Thomas Wayne
Bill Schick
Bill Stroud

That's three, right? <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, you are such a nut! LOL! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Kato
07-13-2004, 06:09 PM
Nobody puts more effort into a cue than Dennis. Nothing leaves his shop until he deems it perfect. He throws away cues other cuemakers would gladly take a few thousand for. Another local cue maker Bob Manzino does some wonderful design work and his cues hit pretty sporty to.

Kato~~~does not know many cue makers personally so this is complete opinion.

dr_billiards
07-13-2004, 09:20 PM
1)Madison Bob
2)Madison Bob
3)Madison Bob
...lets see is that 3..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cane
07-13-2004, 10:08 PM
1. Schuler/Jerico (yep, they are one and the same, I saw the contract between Ray and Jerry)
2. Richard Black
3. Barry Cameron

All play very well and all display the utmost in craftsmanship and care. I own all three and of all that I have, which is a "collection", these are my favorites in that order.

Bob

Chris Cass
07-13-2004, 11:22 PM
Ok 33,

Here we go,

1)Efren
2)Strickland
3)Archer

Regards,

C.C.

shoutout33
07-14-2004, 10:12 AM
Um...Chris, I meant cue makers. Thanks for the reply though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif ...Wait a minute! Are you pulling my leg on this one!?! Man, that was a good one, much Kudos! Even had to go back and edit response! LOL! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif You dirty shark you! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Chris Cass
07-14-2004, 01:21 PM
Hi Shout,

Well, I always said that the shooter makes the cue and up till now I believed in it. Unfortunately, I'm not a shooter I guess. I just can't get this SS joint down. Everyone says, It's all in your head. I say, I should be able to shoot with anything. I can but, it just isn't fluid and probably because it is in my head.

The reason I never answered your question is because of it's controvercial nature. You could say notoriety, cues sold per yr, or even better, you'ld have to hit with all of them and then make a decision that was based on what I personally thought. Just can't speak for the world. It's like naming the World tournament winner as the best. Did they actually play the whole world? If so, I didn't get to play them. LOL

OK, even making a choice would be insulting those fantastic cuemakers out there without even playing with or seeing their work. For me I like ring work and points. Not just any points. The kind that poke you in the eye when you look at them. The hand cut type. Barry Szamboti same as Gus has some of the best I've ever seen.

I also like the work of Ernie G. There's too many master cuemakers that deserve credit. To me, I like to see the new up and commers like Mike from Capone get a couple hits. JER from Blackheart has been doing new work and seems to be on the rise. Durbin has been jumping up there too.

Man, if I sharked you. Then, you sharked me first. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~loves Barry' work, so clean, so much like Gus it's scarry. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Pelican
07-14-2004, 01:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>

That's three, right? <hr /></blockquote>

At least. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Pelican
07-14-2004, 01:33 PM
Since no one said living or dead I go with:
Burton Spain
Herman Rambow
George Balabushka

shoutout33
07-14-2004, 02:43 PM
Ok Mr. Pelican, point taken and well noted. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif Could you please sir, give us some living cuemakers as well? Thanks.

Fred Agnir
07-14-2004, 03:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> 1. Schuler/Jerico (yep, they are one and the same, I saw the contract between Ray and Jerry)
<hr /></blockquote>I think you are confused. They are not one and the same. Jerry worked for Ray. Jerry has a contract with Schuler Cues. Jerry makes his own cues, most of which look nothing like Schuler Cues.

Fred

Rod
07-14-2004, 05:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I just can't get this SS joint down. Everyone says, It's all in your head. I say, I should be able to shoot with anything. I can but, it just isn't fluid and probably because it is in my head.

<hr /></blockquote>

Chris, what is the problem? I mean does it feel solid, to hard, soft or what? The ball varies in responce? Do you think the tip is a factor? Is it the same tip you use on other shafts? Speaking of shafts the SW had a fairly thin shaft, do you suppose that changed your feel? You are talking about the bodie? I'm just full of questions, enquiring minds want to know. OK nosey then. lol

Rod

DialUp
07-14-2004, 09:33 PM
1 - Dufferin

2 - Harley Davidson

3 - Marvel Comics

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris Cass
07-14-2004, 10:32 PM
Hi Rod,

Just a little less deflection than I'm used to is all. The rest I can adapt. The confidence level is the major difference and that's what I'm basically having the problem with I guess. I do seem to have to hit lighter with the boti but it's enough to through me into a tailspin.

Regards,

C.C.

dooziexx
07-15-2004, 08:57 AM
Im surprised that no one has mentioned Kersenbrock in their list of top cue makers. Not only is he a master cuemaker that I believe invented the parabolic taper but he's also responsible for tutoring/teaching the following cue makers which are great cue makers themselves:
Jerry Franklin of SouthWest
Mike Bender
Ed Young

Other cuemakers that would make my list are:
Bill Schick
Bill Stroud
Szamboti

Wally_in_Cincy
07-15-2004, 09:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dooziexx:</font><hr> ...parabolic taper...<hr /></blockquote>

what's that?

Cueless Joey
07-15-2004, 09:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dooziexx:</font><hr> ...parabolic taper...<hr /></blockquote>

what's that? <hr /></blockquote>
Cone shaped cue.
The cue gets bigger from the tip all the way to the bottom of the cue.
Usually the cue has at least 3 or more tapers/angles.
House cues have one angle too. Makes for a very stiff hitting cue.
Kershenbrock started it I believe.
The butt on my cues are dual tapered. The taper on the forearm is not the same as the handle. I don't like the handle getting too fat and I don't like the forerm too skinny. So the forearm has 16.6 thousands per inch of taper while the handle is around 14 thou per inch.
Ted Harris here explains it in his site.

Rod
07-15-2004, 04:38 PM
Hi Chris,

Less deflection is good. Except when your trying to adjust. LOL Do you think the steel joint has a little more responce than your use to? Or maybe the butt size and weight is a slight issue. Just curious what you feel. Small things like that can take some getting use to, I know. I still like my old Palmer because the handle is larger than the Schon by a little but it is not as solid.

Rod

Pelican
07-15-2004, 07:13 PM
Thought I read where Ray Schuler started that in two piece cues. ICBW

Pelican
07-15-2004, 07:27 PM
OK shoutout, here is my list of 'live' ones:

Richard Black - got two of his

Joel Hercek - on his list, 'bout 3 years to go (did I mention I like Burton Spain)

Dave Barenbrugge - got one of his, absolutely beautiful butterfly splice

Later dude, Pel /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

kenz54
07-15-2004, 08:28 PM
I don't know if Ray Schuler started the compound taper in the butt but i know his cues use it. ....From the Schuler site...""Instead of a straight taper, the Schuler cue features a compound taper, that is, a series of different tapers, between the joint and the butt plate. This design results in a stronger, better-performing cue that is still comfortably thin through the gripping area. A compound taper requires extra steps during construction, but as with the extra steps required for the Schuler joint, the benefits are worth the extra work."

Chris Cass
07-15-2004, 10:37 PM
Hi Rod,

At first the boti felt like I was hitting with a half of cue. The S.W. was more solid hits like a one peice cue, both are hard hitting cues. Now, then the weight issue. The weight believe it or not feels like the Boti is heavier than the S.W.

The Bodi is much more stiff and with less deflection but both are trade off as far as shots go. They both have certain qualities that are great. It kind of forces you to play a different game.

Here are the differences off the top of my head,

Boti:

LePro tip 13mm
Ivory ferrule w/pad: 1 1/4" (the good Ivory)
Shaft weight: 4.0 oz.
Shaft length: 29 1/2"
Shaft taper : 13mm pro 11 1/2" w/tip
Shaft collar: 13/16th width
Joint : SS piloted
Butt cap : 1 1/4" wide
Butt length : 29 1/2"
Butt weight : 16 oz
Wrap : leather
Total weight and length: 20 oz / 59"

S.W.

Lepro tip 12.7mm
Furrule: 1" malimine
Shaft weight: 4.0 oz
Shaft length: 29 1/4"
Shaft taper : 12.70mm 14.0" w/tip
Shaft collar: 7/8" width
Joint : wood to wood phenolic flat faced
Butt cap : 1" wide
Butt length : 29 1/4"
Butt weight : 16 oz
Wrap : Irish linen double pressed and polished
Total length and weight: 19.75 oz/ 58"

I've noticed it's mainly in the taper of the entire cue but also in the weight distribution. What are your thoughts?

Regards,

C.C.~~starting back to using the lepro to get ready for the change to the boti.

SUPERSTAR
07-15-2004, 11:00 PM
Actually, Black Boar makes a parabolic. The taper on THAT cue goes normal from tip to handle.....and then about 10 inches from the end of the cue, it starts to taper THIN again till it reaches the butt end.

I have a parabolic, and i can do MORE stuff with the ball then i ever could before. No explanation for it.
Just...i had taken my cue to get a leather wrap put on, and asked him to do the parabolic taper. When i got it back....i could juice up the ball a TON. With no change in my stroke. The taper at the butt is very slight and looks sort of like a cigar.
It is still a mystery to me why i can do more with it now than before. I even know other black boar owners who took THEIR shafts...slapped then on MY parabolic butt, and THEY ended up being able to do more. Figure THAT one out.
Maybe it has something to do with the balance.
It's a mystery better left to some design engineer who could better understand it.

SUPERSTAR

Rod
07-15-2004, 11:57 PM
Chris,

I wonder if the boti feels heavier due to the larger butt? That is a huge difference. You have a full 1/4" difference in butt diameter at the butt cap compared to 1 inch with the SW? The SW is small. I think what is more important though is the size at the wrap start and end. At any rate it appears the SW is much smaller. That would take some getting use to.

I measured my Schon, the wrap start 1.030" the wrap end is 1.20" where the Butt cap is 1.30". Along with that I measured the Palmer butt, it is slightly under 1.3 but the wrap start is 1.042, wrap end is 1.210. That small difference is easy enough for me to feel it's larger. It doesn't take much.

I wonder if you have a little less wrist movement with the larger butt? The boti appears stiffer on paper, shaft diameter and taper. The SW "might" make up for some of that with a flat faced joint.

What's strange here, or at least different is the joint collar on the SW is actually bigger but a smaller butt. The big difference I see is the diameter and that 1/4 OZ heavier might be what's throwing you off. I should mention the 1 inch longer will make the cue seem heavier. That is if you hold it the same position as the SW. Bridge length and distance to back hand. You'd have more cue past your back hand. I know we move around on the wrap, but in general.

That's what I see, I put little weight or value in the ferrule difference. One thing for sure the cues are different. You wouldn't mistake one for the other even with your eyes closed. lol

LePro tip eh? I like em if they are of the firmer variety.


Rod

shoutout33
07-16-2004, 08:22 AM
Aw SNAP Rip! When I finished looking at your picture slides, I never noticed the cases! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif You have a Ron Thomas case!?! *faints* LOL! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Seriously, it's a really, really nice case. I want one so bad I could cry. Hey, you don't mind me borrowing it...like, indefinitely do you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Chris Cass
07-16-2004, 09:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Chris,

I wonder if the boti feels heavier due to the larger butt? That is a huge difference. You have a full 1/4" difference in butt diameter at the butt cap compared to 1 inch with the SW? The SW is small. I think what is more important though is the size at the wrap start and end. At any rate it appears the SW is much smaller. That would take some getting use to.

I measured my Schon, the wrap start 1.030" the wrap end is 1.20" where the Butt cap is 1.30". Along with that I measured the Palmer butt, it is slightly under 1.3 but the wrap start is 1.042, wrap end is 1.210. That small difference is easy enough for me to feel it's larger. It doesn't take much.

I wonder if you have a little less wrist movement with the larger butt? The boti appears stiffer on paper, shaft diameter and taper. The SW "might" make up for some of that with a flat faced joint.

What's strange here, or at least different is the joint collar on the SW is actually bigger but a smaller butt. The big difference I see is the diameter and that 1/4 OZ heavier might be what's throwing you off. I should mention the 1 inch longer will make the cue seem heavier. That is if you hold it the same position as the SW. Bridge length and distance to back hand. You'd have more cue past your back hand. I know we move around on the wrap, but in general.

That's what I see, I put little weight or value in the ferrule difference. One thing for sure the cues are different. You wouldn't mistake one for the other even with your eyes closed. lol

LePro tip eh? I like em if they are of the firmer variety.


Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Rod,

Man you know your stuff. I hold the S.W. normally at the end of the wrap with my pinky finger basically on the finish where the Boti is fully on the wrap. The wrap does stop the wrist to a point because the leather does grip. I did sweat at first and was thinking of maybe a cooler feel like lizard from what I've heard but, I overcame that part.

The joint is major to me. The S.W. is larger at the ring collar as opposed to the joint of the Boti but the ring on the Boti after that is larger than the S.W. The joint hits stiffer and with as you know less vibration going through or feedback. This makes for a feel of shooting with a half a cue but, I overcame that too.

The fatter back end after the wrap is a big thing because I prefer the smaller than the larger which makes the cue feel heavier and stiffer. I feel I have to grip the cue lighter.

The shaft taper is a big difference. I overcame that too. Just shoot in a pattern or just more thought going into what I can and can't do between the two.

I think it could be the weight distribution? I'd say shooting with the Boti is close to shooting with a Pred shaft. The shafts on the Boti I think are better than the S.W.' both are great and are made with excellent wood. The Boti shafts are imacculant.

I guess it comes down to the size differences in the butt size. That 1/4" seems to effect me more than the length easily. Like you say, we travel up and down the wrap so that wasn't much at all. Maybe, 2" would make a huge differece but that's not the case.

I shot a few times with Spikes SL-10 Schon. It hits simular but the butt is the same as mine as far as width goes. There, I can feel a difference too from the Boti. The Schon hits a little less stiff as the Boti but close. I do see or feel the SS joint is different from the S.W. joint.

I agree with your point about the width in the butt. That's a major difference. I can still play well with the Boti and the cue is fantastic. I just need a few yrs to build up my confidence. It seems my stroke is normally soft and extremely loose. The Boti grabs my hand and stops the loose feeling. I seem to hit harder with it and the cue although is really close to eachother in weight. Maybe, a 1'2 gram off but the Boti seems heavier. Weird.

Regards,

C.C.~~needs the harder lePro tips and has been lucky so far. I need the tips for a good reference to begin with. thanks for asking Rod and I'm not sending you the Boti.hahahahha

Rod
07-16-2004, 11:43 AM
Hi Chris,

I mentioned the larger butt because it should cut down on wrist movement. The larger handle fills your hand which by all rights is the reason. It's the same principal as golf, larger grip size, less wrist movement. Going to a larger grip isn't done for that reason however, it's for people with large hands. Women's grips are considerably smaller.

The trend has been going to smaller butt's on pool cues. While that might suite many players, it's not for all. Like I said the Palmer butt is larger by .012 appx, just that small difference is what I really like. If I ordered a custom cue that would be one area of concern to me.

Similar to you, but not the same, I like the slightly larger handle. I feel with the Schon I have to grip the cue a bit more, and that's not good. It also has a hard pressed linen wrap, which I like, just the size is a tad small.

It's absolutely no effort to hold the Palmer with a hard pressed linen wrap. That seems what you are feeling along with the leather being a bit tacky for lack of a better description.

Did you actually measure with a dial caliper to get those measurements? Did you prefer Spike's Schon, as far as butt diameter over the boti? I read you feel they are near the same?


[ QUOTE ]
The shafts on the Boti I think are better than the S.W.' both are great and are made with excellent wood. The Boti shafts are imacculant.
<hr /></blockquote>

Thats what I like, I'm sure Barry only uses excellent well seasoned wood. A friend of mine has one that was made by Gus. He ordered and received it in early to mid 70's I believe. He paid up front but sent $50 over the bill to get it sooner. The total was $350, wow. He got a Fellini case too. Gus decided he sent to much so he added 4 rectangular windows with inlay inside of them. John was thrilled with the addition. The cue is traditonal older style with 4 points, vener and inlays, It's beautiful. It's still perfect today, he rarely plays anymore. He has been offered over $8000 but the last we talked he was thinking of having Barry make one just like it. That family has a way with cues, nothing but the best.

Ok I'll stop jabbering, it sounds like time being a lighter weight pin might be what your looking for. That and time to adapt. Lets hope it doesn't take years.

Oh and if you really decide you can't adapt, I like larger butts! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod

Chris Cass
07-16-2004, 08:05 PM
Hi Rod,

The Schon is the same size butt as the S.W. Heide likes the Boti and is the same size as her McDermott. I'll get used to it.

Big butts? I have 5 sisters. LOL

Regards,

C.C.

griffith_d
07-16-2004, 09:38 PM
I can only comment on the Lambros I have,..as the finest hitting cue I have found.

Griff

Rip
07-16-2004, 09:45 PM
Hi Shout,
Give Ron Thomas a call and he'll make you one to your specs. Heck of nice guy to deal with also.

I decided to stop lugging around multiple cues and pockets full of gadgets and gizmos. I just received the Thomas and selected no strap and no pockets. You could say I'm struggling with being a minimalist. Quite a contrast to my Silver Fox case that has more storage than a Winnebago!

Regards,
Rip