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View Full Version : Deliberate foul with deliberate foul stroke?



phil in sofla
07-23-2004, 05:46 PM
It's a routine play in 9-ball when you're impossibly hooked, or if the situation is too tricky, to deliberately foul, to tie balls up, and try to make the runout harder when your opponent gets his/her ball in hand.

But what about this scenario? Say you're hooked by being frozen to a ball (not the low ball on the table). Given the situation, you realize pocketing that ball would make the table harder to run out, but the only way you see to make the ball is to use an illegal push stroke, placing the tip on the cue ball and pushing in an obvious foul stroke.

Given that you're going to deliberately foul anyway, the penalty for the foul stroke is the same as for the foul of not hitting the low ball on the table. Would this be a legitimate move in that situation, and a different question, would you personally use it, if you thought of it?

I've gotten differing opinions, from absolutely no, I never would, to sure, if that was the play, why not?

What do you think? It's never come up that I've noticed, but then, I've never thought of it before, so it may have been there and I simply was blinded to the possibility.

Karatemom
07-23-2004, 06:06 PM
I've seen that done hundreds of times at various tourneys in the area. Yes it's a foul, but if you can't run out, then you want to make sure that your opponent can't, or has a very difficult time trying.

Would I do it? Maybe. I don't play much 9 ball, but if put in that situation with no other options, yes.

Heide

Popcorn
07-23-2004, 08:21 PM
If I understand what you are saying there would be nothing wrong with doing that. It is not unusual to take a foul and tie up balls and give up ball in hand.

Pelican
07-23-2004, 09:07 PM
If I'm playing in the back of the store with a friend just for fun, probably not. If I am playing in a tournament that I want to win - I will do what ever the rules allow.. I would expect my opponent to do the same.

Jimmy B
07-24-2004, 01:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr>
But what about this scenario? Say you're hooked by being frozen to a ball (not the low ball on the table). Given the situation, you realize pocketing that ball would make the table harder to run out,. <hr /></blockquote>

To answer your question, I don't see anything wrong with doing it, but I can't really think of too many spots where taking a ball off the table would make it a harder run. If there were a cluster and maybe that ball could be used to break it up then I'd say maybe, but I would much rather leave all the balls I can on the table and just try to move it where it would make it a harder run. I would try to move it to the other end if it was going to be used for a break out, I would also use a foul stroke to do that if I had to. Keep in mind most of the people I play don't string racks and can easily get out of line on 4 or 5 ball outs, I've even seen some A players get out of line on 5 ball runs, it happens to the best of us.

JB

Wally_in_Cincy
07-25-2004, 08:15 AM
I often use an illegal push stroke when taking an intentional foul in 14.1 so I see no problem with doing what you refer to.

tateuts
07-25-2004, 11:03 AM
Yes you can do that.

The more interesting situation would be to not bother with the cue ball at all - just go over to the object ball and pick it up with your hand and place it in a nasty spot.

Chris

Barbara
07-25-2004, 11:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Yes you can do that.

The more interesting situation would be to not bother with the cue ball at all - just go over to the object ball and pick it up with your hand and place it in a nasty spot.

Chris

<hr /></blockquote>

Chris,

That would definitely be grounds for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Barbara

tateuts
07-25-2004, 11:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>

Chris,

That would definitely be grounds for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Barbara

<hr /></blockquote>

Oh, OK - I guess I won't do that.

Sid_Vicious
07-25-2004, 11:18 AM
Barbara...How about the players who get walled in with a great safety, who simply reach in and pick up the CB? Part of my reason for the lock some may have been in leaving whitie so they'd have to disturb something in stroking it in any direction. Is that unsportsmanlike as well???sid

JDB
07-25-2004, 11:29 AM
Nope, that is just a smart move, nothing unsportsmanlike about it.

Barbara
07-25-2004, 11:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Barbara...How about the players who get walled in with a great safety, who simply reach in and pick up the CB? Part of my reason for the lock some may have been in leaving whitie so they'd have to disturb something in stroking it in any direction. Is that unsportsmanlike as well???sid <hr /></blockquote>

Yes Sid, I would consider that situation to be unsportsmanlike conduct also. But if the cb was left in the wide open, I would consider picking up the cb the same as shooting it to a rail and not making a legal hit.

Barbara

Sid_Vicious
07-25-2004, 11:55 AM
So are you saying that if the situation arises, and I see he's going to pick up the walled in CB instead of dealing with my intentional hose job, no exit possible, that I should call a judge for an unsportsmanship call? I hate to see my proficient job of playing a pristene, reasonfull(double reason) safety get unpunished, except for the automatic BIH...sid

Popcorn
07-25-2004, 12:02 PM
You would now be on a foul and I think your opponent has the option of just putting the ball back.

Wally_in_Cincy
07-25-2004, 12:03 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a situation where you could not just touch the CB with your tip without moving another ball more than a millimeter.

If you can pick it up with your hand without moving a ball you can touch it with your tip without moving a ball, or so it seems to me.

Barbara
07-25-2004, 12:20 PM
Sid,

I would warn the opponent that you want to call over the ref or TD to preside over the matter. You're probablly going to win the game anyway since your opponent is one foul ahead of you.

Barbara

Popcorn
07-25-2004, 12:29 PM
How does this win for you, he just takes a foul and hands it back and you are on one first?

Sid_Vicious
07-25-2004, 12:46 PM
We don't play with the 3 foul rule, I'd be happier with the likely breakout of the ball(s) surrounding the CB I've stuck him in, since that was my secondary reason for the key safety, the table in a trouble spot for me with nothing more than a simple BIH call. It's rare that these kinds of safeties work as well, and it shouldn't be that hard for the guy to manufacture another type foul besides picking up whitey, but I'd at least enjoy seeing something besides a cop out by picking it up.

Thanks, and I imagine I'd lose my ploy for unsportsmanlike by most of the refs simply cuz they wouldn't see nor be taught that it was automatic as unsportsmanlike in today's rulset. Some refs, and I'm talking about many BCA head refs, haven't much of a clue as to the hairline difference for this call. It ain't clear cut, but could be if the rules were to state that any balls picked up by the hand was just that. Your answer about having it out in the open and picking it up instead of bumping it with the cue IMO should be eliminated as status quo acceptable. Sure it's not hurting the other guy or helping you, but it still keeps this game as it think it should me, pool equipment to make ALL cb movements, even intentional fouls. BCA rules are goofy enough as it is, a specific like this by having to use your cue would simply make things less contestable, and cut and dried...sid~~~not fretting about this, just conversing with ya

tateuts
07-25-2004, 03:39 PM
I was joking. I thought of that right after I typed in the message.

Bob_Jewett
07-26-2004, 12:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Barbara...How about the players who get walled in with a great safety, who simply reach in and pick up the CB? Part of my reason for the lock some may have been in leaving whitie so they'd have to disturb something in stroking it in any direction. Is that unsportsmanlike as well???sid <hr /></blockquote>
There is nothing in the rules that permits you to pass a shot. There are explicit rules against intentionally moving the cue ball with anything other than the tip of the cue, although they aren't consistent.

The fundamental rule of billiards is that you only play by moving the cue ball with the tip of your cue. To intentionally move the balls in any other way is subject to an unsportsmanlike conduct call.

Here is another "take a foul" situation I saw at 14.1. The player was addressing the cue ball, and nudged it. He saw in a split second that if he backed off and let his opponent shoot, he'd lose that rack and maybe another -- his opponent was pretty good. Almost by reflex, he quickly shot through at high speed, probably hoping that the cue ball might end up stuck on a rail or behind a ball.

What should the penalty be for that kind of foul? If I'm allowed to hit the cue ball multiple times on a foul, I have some great safeties for one pocket.

SpiderMan
07-26-2004, 11:49 AM
I don't see why he would pick up the cue ball in that situation. He could just nudge it with his tip, then it would be up to you to pick it up.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> So are you saying that if the situation arises, and I see he's going to pick up the walled in CB instead of dealing with my intentional hose job, no exit possible, that I should call a judge for an unsportsmanship call? I hate to see my proficient job of playing a pristene, reasonfull(double reason) safety get unpunished, except for the automatic BIH...sid <hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
07-26-2004, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr>
But what about this scenario? Say you're hooked by being frozen to a ball (not the low ball on the table). Given the situation, you realize pocketing that ball would make the table harder to run out,. <hr /></blockquote>

To answer your question, I don't see anything wrong with doing it, but I can't really think of too many spots where taking a ball off the table would make it a harder run. JB <hr /></blockquote>

The situation that most quickly comes to mind is one where the next-highest ball (this is 9-ball) is not makeable as it lies. By giving ball-in-hand with the breakout ball removed, you force the incoming shooter to play safe. You may lose anyway, but you've improved your chances a little.

SpiderMan

Sid_Vicious
07-26-2004, 12:16 PM
Picking up the ball is commonplace with a particular group of players I hit with. Sure they could stay with an honest "billiard-style" and touch the tip, but they don't always, especially if the tied up balls are neatly packed and better off left undisturbed. That's the jest of my asking the question, I can only assume they would feel safer in not disturbing surrounding balls by picking it up without tapping it with the cue.

Sid

phil in sofla
07-26-2004, 07:25 PM
Same question, but instead of an illegal push shot, how about the 'faster than the eye can see' second contact of the cue with an object ball?

Say, the 9-ball is hanging, with no way to disturb it with a regular stroke of any kind, but if one used a long follow through, one could foul through the intervening object ball, to make the 9, so it spots up instead of hanging there for the immediate loss? (I saw the young upcoming trick shot shooter from Brookly, I think, use this technique as a trick shot, although it's of course an illegal shot).

The question is when, if ever, a foul shot goes beyond what is allowable, to either potential loss of game for sportsmanship reasons, or just bad sportsmanship in general, to where someone who tries to honor sportsmanship would not perform the stroke that way?

Popcorn
07-26-2004, 09:40 PM
Here is a common scenario guys like to talk about. You are playing one pocket and the guys game ball is hanging and you need two. If you follow it in he has another ball he will just shoot in and win with ball in hand from behind the line. So you double hit the cue ball making the ball but fouling and leave the cue ball hanging not leaving a shot. You lose one and the ball you made spots up. Is this a legal shot? What would be the ruling?

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Rod
07-26-2004, 10:03 PM
It might fly but who are you going to pull that on?

Popcorn
07-27-2004, 01:07 AM
I have always been of the opinion the guy keeps the ball and you lose, or he never acknowledges the foul and you lose. I would really like to know what the rule would be. I know some on here are rule experts.

shooter72283
07-27-2004, 04:42 AM
I'm pretty sure that in one pocket the rule on that is as follows:
1. If a ball is pocketed in your opponent's pocket, but the cueball remains on the table, the ball stays down and counts towards your opponent's score.
2. If both the OB AND the cueball are pocketed, the ball sunk on that shot is spotted, along with one of the offending player's ball.

That is why you would want to either follow the opponent's ball into the pocket, or jump the cueball off the table in a situation like that, since then your opponent is faced with two frozen balls on the spot. There is a way to bank the second ball into your pocket, but it is a risky shot.

JDB
07-27-2004, 06:32 AM
I have never seen a safety where the cue ball is completely blocked in and can't be moved in any direction without disturbing any surrounding the balls. This is generally not the reason for picking up the cue ball and passing the shot.

The cue ball arrived at its resting place through an opening and should be able to escape the same way it came in unless a ball was nudged on the way in to close the gap. I would still think that this does not come up too often, but I could be wrong.

The situation I have seen is that to try and hit the object ball would most likely result in breaking out a cluster around the object ball or the object ball itself with a fairly remote chance of a good hit. Even though you could shoot in the nearest rail with no attempt to hit the object ball, instead the person picks it up and "passes" the shot.

Although I respect your opinion, I would have a difficult time understanding an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for it.

Just my opinion.

Popcorn
07-27-2004, 08:45 AM
I just happen to put the second ball there, It could be anywhere. I think you are right about the rule but have not seen it in writing.

Eric.
07-27-2004, 12:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> Same question, but instead of an illegal push shot, how about the 'faster than the eye can see' second contact of the cue with an object ball?

Say, the 9-ball is hanging, with no way to disturb it with a regular stroke of any kind, but if one used a long follow through, one could foul through the intervening object ball, to make the 9, so it spots up instead of hanging there for the immediate loss? (I saw the young upcoming trick shot shooter from Brookly, I think, use this technique as a trick shot, although it's of course an illegal shot).

<hr /></blockquote>

My thinking is that if someone picked up on what you did, then the 9 ball gets put back to the original position and the incoming player gets BIH. I'm guessing that it is the same as moving a ball accidentally say, when bridging over a ball.


Eric

Rod
07-27-2004, 12:21 PM
I'm of the same opinion. One pocket rules cover this type of foul. It has been brought up before. Here is part of rules of play in one pocket. #4 --

Balls pocketed by a shooter in an opponent's target pocket are scored for the opponent, even if the stroke was a foul, but would not count if the cue ball should scratch or jump the table.

Rod

Rod
07-27-2004, 12:35 PM
Mosconi shot this before you or I was born along with a host of others. Any respectible player would not shoot the shot that way. If your gambling it will start an argument. Playing in a tourney it should spot back up and get an unsportsmen like conduct. It rarely would happen but it could. Besides most players don't follow through far enough to even make the shot. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod

Bob_Jewett
07-27-2004, 03:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Here is a common scenario guys like to talk about. You are playing one pocket and the guys game ball is hanging and you need two. If you follow it in he has another ball he will just shoot in and win with ball in hand from behind the line. So you double hit the cue ball making the ball but fouling and leave the cue ball hanging not leaving a shot. You lose one and the ball you made spots up. Is this a legal shot? What would be the ruling?<hr /></blockquote>
Your opponent's ball spots only for scratches or cue ball off the table. Otherwise, double-hitting would be the absolutely standard way to deal with hanging balls.

On a related topic, with a single tip-to-cue-ball contact it is possible to move all of the balls on the table to in front of your pocket and to leave your opponent corner hooked in his own pocket. Some sets of rules do not provide any way to prevent this other than by calling unsportsmanlike conduct.

nhp
07-28-2004, 05:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote shooter72283:</font><hr> I'm pretty sure that in one pocket the rule on that is as follows:
1. If a ball is pocketed in your opponent's pocket, but the cueball remains on the table, the ball stays down and counts towards your opponent's score.
2. If both the OB AND the cueball are pocketed, the ball sunk on that shot is spotted, along with one of the offending player's ball.

That is why you would want to either follow the opponent's ball into the pocket, or jump the cueball off the table in a situation like that, since then your opponent is faced with two frozen balls on the spot. There is a way to bank the second ball into your pocket, but it is a risky shot. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually there is a way to sink both balls in your hole in one shot when there are two spotted balls and you have ball in hand behind the headstring. It's fairly common knowledge for most strong one pocket players.

Wally_in_Cincy
07-28-2004, 06:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Actually there is a way to sink both balls in your hole in one shot when there are two spotted balls and you have ball in hand behind the headstring. It's fairly common knowledge for most strong one pocket players. <hr /></blockquote>

We're waiting.

catscradle
07-28-2004, 07:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Barbara...How about the players who get walled in with a great safety, who simply reach in and pick up the CB? Part of my reason for the lock some may have been in leaving whitie so they'd have to disturb something in stroking it in any direction. Is that unsportsmanlike as well???sid <hr /></blockquote>

Yes Sid, I would consider that situation to be unsportsmanlike conduct also. But if the cb was left in the wide open, I would consider picking up the cb the same as shooting it to a rail and not making a legal hit.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

I don't concur. There has to be a way to barely touch the cueball with the cuestick merely jiggling it a little without disturbing anything. This would constitue a foul an d ball in hand without changing the layout. Picking it up would be exactly the same as picking it up in open spaces in the middle of the table.

catscradle
07-28-2004, 07:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You would now be on a foul and I think your opponent has the option of just putting the ball back. <hr /></blockquote>

He has the option of putting it back without having to shoot himself and he will not incur a foul himself? Or he puts it back, incurs a foul, but still has the advantage in the race to 3 fouls? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Paul_Mon
07-28-2004, 09:48 AM
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Hit about 2/3 of the ball on the spot with extreme draw. Shot needs to be hit slightly harder than what is needed to get the second ball to bank two rails. The second ball has a better chance of going than the ball on the spot.

Wally_in_Cincy
07-28-2004, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> START(
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Hit about 2/3 of the ball on the spot with extreme draw. Shot needs to be hit slightly harder than what is needed to get the second ball to bank two rails. The second ball has a better chance of going than the ball on the spot. <hr /></blockquote>

So what's your percentage on that shot Paul? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks.

Wally

Paul_Mon
07-28-2004, 10:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
So what's your percentage on that shot Paul? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks.

Wally <hr /></blockquote>

About 50% of the time I'll make the second ball and about 20% of the time I'll make the ball on the spot. Making both is extremely low. Getting them both close is the objective in 1 pocket and that happens about 75% of the time.

Bob_Jewett
07-28-2004, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Actually there is a way to sink both balls in your hole in one shot when there are two spotted balls and you have ball in hand behind the headstring. It's fairly common knowledge for most strong one pocket players. <hr /></blockquote>
I think that pretty much any one pocket player knows the shot, although some very strong players don't like to play it.

Here's the shot: Two balls are spotted and the cue ball is in hand behind the line. Place the cue ball about six inches to the side of the head spot on your opponent's side of the table. Hit the front ball absolutely full and draw the cue ball straight back to freeze it to the cushion where your cue stick passes over the cushion. The front ball goes straight in, and the back ball banks two short cushions.

The two balls must be touching -- not just close! -- or the front ball won't go through properly.

A simpler form of the shot is in Mosconi's Winning Pocket Billiards.

The shot is one case of a general system for aiming the front ball of two frozen balls that I wrote about in my February 1996 column in Billiards Digest. That system has been discussed several times in the newsgroup rec.sport.billiard. You can see those discussions at groups.google.com by looking for "ten times fuller" in that newsgroup.

You don't need draw on the cue ball (although it makes the shot easier) as pointed out in print by Wade Crane. Also, as Wade pointed out, you don't have to start the cue ball for a full hit on the front ball, you just have to shoot the front ball in the right direction.

Rod
07-28-2004, 01:19 PM
It's a sucker shot. Few strong or even good OP players would use it as Bob hinted. I'd either do one of two things, maybe bank the ball behind the spot or better might be to play safe. Depends on who your playing.

Rod

Popcorn
07-28-2004, 02:22 PM
That is not a trick shot, I will shot it in a game. I make sure I get the cueball back up table.

Bob_Jewett
07-28-2004, 03:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> It's a sucker shot. Few strong or even good OP players would use it as Bob hinted....<hr /></blockquote>
I like to play the shot, but I'm not usually playing Efren. I think it would be an interesting proposition to try it against a good player who doesn't like the shot with each player starting with the double-ball spot shot and needing one. See who gets ahead with the strategy they like.

The shot does have major problems if the balls are not spotted straight or if there is any gap between them.

nhp
07-28-2004, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> It's a sucker shot. Few strong or even good OP players would use it as Bob hinted. I'd either do one of two things, maybe bank the ball behind the spot or better might be to play safe. Depends on who your playing.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

LOL is it? I see champions going for it all the time. I first learned it by watching Efren do it playing some guy for $300 per rack giving up 12-6. He did it four times for the two hours I stayed and watched them play. Come on Rod, you should know by now that no shot is a sucker shot if you practice enough to make it most of the time. LOL

Rod
07-28-2004, 03:46 PM
Something like that is always interesting, matching up strategy or preferred way of shooting. The double ball spot and the bank both have their problems. The strategy in OP is get a ball close to your pocket. Yet that is usually presumed when you hide whitey. In this case and others there is no where to hide so speed is critical. If one ball is left on the end rail that could leave a bank using the other ball in both situations.

Rod
07-28-2004, 04:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Come on Rod, you should know by now that no shot is a sucker shot if you practice enough to make it most of the time. LOL

<hr /></blockquote>

That's the key isn't it? Remember though he's giving up 12 to 6 so that tells me if he gets fairly close he will or might get away with it. How about playing Cliff Joyner or another notible? Efren still might but then again he might re-think the odds. Who your playing often dictates how you play shots.

Rod

Paul_Mon
07-29-2004, 04:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> That is not a trick shot, I will shot it in a game. I make sure I get the cueball back up table. <hr /></blockquote>

Good point. Unless there are other balls on the table I'll shoot this every time. Control of the cue ball is more important than pocketing either ball. What I'd be trying to do on this shot is get them both close to my hole, hoping one of them goes. But my primary objective is to get cue ball into a safe place.

Paul Mon