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View Full Version : Nine Ball Break- Scratch Strategy



recoveryjones
07-28-2004, 04:01 PM
A few months back I was playing nine ball and lost on 3 fouls after initially miscueing when attempting to break the balls.I miscued and completley missed the pack.

I thought my opponent would take ball in hand and re-break the pack like the majority of people do. Instead he took ball in hand and placed the cue ball to the right of the pack 12-18 inches or so and about a foot back towards the breaking end of the table.He then grazed the one ball (ever so thinly barely disturbing it) with right hand sidings and left me hooked behind the pack.Because the one ball had barely moved I had only a portion of it to hit as I attempted a kick shot off the side rail.I missed the one and the pack completely, although ever so slightly. He took ball in hand again and hooked me behind the pack again with the exact same shot. This time I hit a ball that was snuggled up beside the one(the one was still only half exposed) and lost the game on 3 fouls.

In hindsight I could have smashed the pack open after the first hooking , however, the guy was a good shot and capable of running a table.With ball in hand (even though the balls would be now spread) he could have also hooked me again.His strategy won him a game and completley took me by surprise as I was feeling a titch rattled.A (difficult)missed kick attempt or breaking the pack open option , either way, puts my opponent at a distinct advantage.

The other day someone else miscued when attempting to break the pack. I employed the same strategy and also won the game.Hey, it's legal, so why not give it a try? RJ

phil in sofla
07-28-2004, 04:15 PM
Interesting idea for playing that situation, RJ. Although many of the people I play kick well enough that I don't think that would be enough to put them on 2, LOL!

But I thought there was no 'break' at all, absent the cue ball hitting something out of the kitchen. If that is true (I think it is for 8-ball), then you'd have a second break attempt coming instead of being on one foul. Was that truly a foul in Texas Express rules (or BCA rules)?

(Yes, I know I should have my own copy of these rules, and/or go look them up on line, but that's what I use this board for!!!)

Barbara
07-28-2004, 04:29 PM
Phil,

What RJ described is allowable under BCA rules.

5.4 (1) The breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.

(2) If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.

(3) If on the break shhot, the breaker causes an object ball to jump off the table, it is a foul and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. The object ball is not repotted (exception; if the object ball is the 9-ball, it is spotted).

The breaker did not satisfy (2) so his opponent has BIH on the table.

Barbara

highsea
07-28-2004, 04:46 PM
This is kind of interesting. So the incoming player does not have to make a legal break? I was thinking RJ could push out in this situation, but if there was no legal break, can you push out?

-CM

Rod
07-28-2004, 04:46 PM
Something to be said for playing within one's capability eh?

Rod

recoveryjones
07-28-2004, 04:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Phil,

What RJ described is allowable under BCA rules.

5.4 (1) The breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.

(2) If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.

(3) If on the break shhot, the breaker causes an object ball to jump off the table, it is a foul and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. The object ball is not repotted (exception; if the object ball is the 9-ball, it is spotted).

The breaker did not satisfy (2) so his opponent has BIH on the table.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Barbara, While it seems to legal with the BCA, I was wondering if it was legal with the VNEA and other leagues as the rules can differ from league to league.

Some guys from another forum told me that the miscuer can elect to brake again and another said the person that shoots after the breaker can tell the guy to break again or opt to break himself.Both have said that what I described in my orginal post was illegal although it seems to be legal at least in the eyes of the BCA. RJ

woody_968
07-28-2004, 04:57 PM
Most people any more play texas express, if that is the case here are the rules (at least the parts directly dealing with this)

3.6: Fouls Prior, During, or After the Break

"If a foul occurs during any legal break or break attempt, then the incoming player has cue ball-in-hand. If a foul occurs during any illegal break or break attempt, then the incoming player racks and breaks."

A legal nineball break is hitting the lowest ball first and driving 4 balls to a rail. You missed the entire rack so it wasnt a legal break. If playing texas express rules, If I am reading this correctly, he would NOT have ball in hand.

Barbara
07-28-2004, 04:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> This is kind of interesting. So the incoming player does not have to make a legal break? I was thinking RJ could push out in this situation, but if there was no legal break, can you push out?

-CM <hr /></blockquote>

You cannot push out after fouling on the break because a legal break was not performed.

Rule 5.6 - Push Out - "The player who shoots the shot immediately after a legal break may play a push out...

See? It pays to know the rules!

Barbara

woody_968
07-28-2004, 05:00 PM
I believe in APA the breaker would break again, as long as you didnt shoot the cueball into a pocket. I need to look it up again to be sure. Man I hate having so many different rules that are being played!!!

Barbara
07-28-2004, 05:03 PM
RJ,

The situation you described is allowable under BCA rules. I can see where the sitting oppponent would question such a move, because one would normally assume that the incoming player would want to break the rack.

Barbara

recoveryjones
07-28-2004, 05:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> Interesting idea for playing that situation, RJ. Although many of the people I play kick well enough that I don't think that would be enough to put them on 2, LOL!

Hi Phil, the kick is not as easy as you think because remember (if the one is thinned so much that it barely moves) it is only half exposed because it his partially blocked by the ball in the pack behind it.

Having said that some kickers (like Efren Reyes and other pros)have no problem hitting half a ball.RJ

Ps. Check your mail, I sent you a PM.

highsea
07-28-2004, 05:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>You cannot push out after fouling on the break because a legal break was not performed.

Rule 5.6 - Push Out - "The player who shoots the shot immediately after a legal break may play a push out...

See? It pays to know the rules!

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>That's how I read the rule also. What surprised me was that there was no requirement for a legal break for the game to be played. The game commences when the cue hits the CB, whether or not a legal break is made.

It kind of surprises me that the opponent can play a safety in this situation, it's smart play if the pushout is not an option.

I guess in RJ's position I would have fouled into the rack if I didn't have a good kick at the one ball. Hopefully leaving a messy cluster to make the opponents runout more difficult.

-CM

Barbara
07-28-2004, 05:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>That's how I read the rule also. What surprised me was that there was no requirement for a legal break for the game to be played. The game commences when the cue hits the CB, whether or not a legal break is made.

It kind of surprises me that the opponent can play a safety in this situation, it's smart play if the pushout is not an option.

I guess in RJ's position I would have fouled into the rack if I didn't have a good kick at the one ball. Hopefully leaving a messy cluster to make the opponents runout more difficult.

-CM <hr /></blockquote>

You would have to make sure you blasted into the pack enough to not leave your opponent a good safe because you are now on two.

Barbara

highsea
07-28-2004, 05:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>You would have to make sure you blasted into the pack enough to not leave your opponent a good safe because you are now on two.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>That's true, but I already know he can hook me behind the pack again if I kick at and miss the one ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It really boils down to that second shot. If the chances of getting a good hit on the 1B are not good, I would probably try something else just to take that safety shot away from the opponent. Being on 2 fouls, I know he is going to try to hook me again, I just want to make him do it with a different shot.

I guess the moral of the story is don't foul on the break! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

RedHell
07-29-2004, 08:24 AM
I had this discussion here with Chris Cass. And Chris confirmed that he would have no problem hitting the one.

In my case, it's blast'em open ad pray that your opponent doesn't get to much to work with. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

recoveryjones
07-29-2004, 08:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> I had this discussion here with Chris Cass. And Chris confirmed that he would have no problem hitting the one.

In my case, it's blast'em open ad pray that your opponent doesn't get to much to work with. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>

The ones definitly hittable, however , if the guy thins the one really really fine it can stay glued to the pack and only offer a partial ball hit making it more difficult.

Smashing the pack is a good way to go especially if you are playing a weaker player who doesn't run out to often. If he doesn't hook you too tight on the third hook. I like my chances with my jump stick as I seem to clear most jumps 2 balls apart and even closer on occasion. RJ

nhp
07-30-2004, 04:27 AM
I thought that if you don't perform a legal break, i.e. driving 4 balls to a rail, then you rerack and break again. That's the way I've always known to play.

Barbara
07-30-2004, 07:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> I thought that if you don't perform a legal break, i.e. driving 4 balls to a rail, then you rerack and break again. That's the way I've always known to play. <hr /></blockquote>

Not according to the BCA rules.

Barbara

cheesemouse
07-30-2004, 07:42 AM
Babs, oops....sorry...Baby Doll...oops...Nutlady...oops...Barbara,

I probably shouldn't jump in here as I don't have time to read the whole thread but...what the hay...

Under most sets of rules doesn't the game begin when the cueball crosses the kitchen line?

Concerning the 3-foul rule; any player who doesn't immediately hear the alarm bells when he makes his first foul and awarding BIH is not playing a smart game. While every lay of balls are different and the percentages change with the pool game being played the same mental focus to escaping the 3 foul trap should be applied. In 8ball it is very difficult to 3 foul for the win in the early game (to many options for a good hit) but in 9ball just the opposite. I hate when the 3foul rule is used in a 9ball event because a good smart player can consider using it against you anytime you foul, even down to when there are only two balls left on the table.

Sorry if this isn't a well though out reply but I have a tee time...hehehe...can't wait for golf season to be over so I can play some hardball...... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Chris Cass
07-30-2004, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RedHell:</font><hr> I had this discussion here with Chris Cass. And Chris confirmed that he would have no problem hitting the one.

In my case, it's blast'em open ad pray that your opponent doesn't get to much to work with. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>

LOL This game is so mental at times. For me, I might just blast the pack too. If I was playing I'd offer the player another break but, as tourneys dictate I would have to go along.

About the blasting part. LOL You could kick the top of the rack maybe without breaking the lower half so much. Still, your opponent might get you on three but I think after #2 it should be run out or you still most likely will get another shot.

A good reason to get Joe Tuckers Racking Secrets book. Lets say this is your shot after the foul was commited and your opponet left you this and your on one foul.

START(
%AN9O6%BL6P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%PF4N2
%UQ6Q9%VO4O9%WK3M5%XF9N0%YV8D1%ZL2M4%]q8O0%^W7C6%eC1`8
)END
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

Regards,

C.C.

Barbara
07-30-2004, 08:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> Under most sets of rules doesn't the game begin when the cueball crosses the kitchen line?

<font color="blue">That used to be the rule, but the BCA changed it.</font color>

Concerning the 3-foul rule; any player who doesn't immediately hear the alarm bells when he makes his first foul and awarding BIH is not playing a smart game. While every lay of balls are different and the percentages change with the pool game being played the same mental focus to escaping the 3 foul trap should be applied. In 8ball it is very difficult to 3 foul for the win in the early game (to many options for a good hit) but in 9ball just the opposite. I hate when the 3foul rule is used in a 9ball event because a good smart player can consider using it against you anytime you foul, even down to when there are only two balls left on the table.

<font color="blue">According to the BCA rules, there is no 3-foul rule in 8-ball. Dude, you're being taken. But since there is a 3-foul rule in 9-ball, I would use it to my advantage anytime I could.</font color>

Sorry if this isn't a well though out reply but I have a tee time...hehehe...can't wait for golf season to be over so I can play some hardball...... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

May you break par today! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara

Chris Cass
07-30-2004, 08:33 AM
Woops,

Were we talking 8 Ball? I thought it was 9 ball? There is a 8 ball rule as far as three times each players shoots and the game goes nowhere but, that's another thread. LOL

Regards,

C.C.

Barbara
07-30-2004, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Woops,

Were we talking 8 Ball? I thought it was 9 ball? There is a 8 ball rule as far as three times each players shoots and the game goes nowhere but, that's another thread. LOL

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

Chris,

There's a stalemate rule in 8-ball, but no 3-foul rule.

Barbara