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Tom_In_Cincy
07-29-2004, 02:49 PM
I've been slowing down the stoke (softer hit) and hitting closer to center for the last few practice sessions.

One of the the outcomes of this exercise is an increased amount of cue ball action off of the rails or more reverse or forward travel.

I am now getting more spin on the cue ball, with less effort than I have ever experienced.

I don't know if it's because I slowed down, or moved closer to center hit , no more than a half tip away from center. Yet, I am geting tons of spin on the ball.

Follow thru is about the same, maybe a bit more than before.

I am glad this is happening, but at the same time, it is throwing my game off and adjusting is difficult.

Has anyone experienced this?

Rod
07-29-2004, 04:37 PM
Here is my take Tom. What your experiencing is a c/b that stays on the table longer. Meaning a softer stroke allows the c/b to take a natural forward roll.( It now has top english ) The same can be said for draw except it takes a little more speed depending on the distance. By keeping the c/b on the table it does what I call penetrates the o/b. Meaning it goes through with follow (even though you used center) distance makes a noticable difference; or reacts faster with low since it's on the bed of the table in both cases.

Now before y'all say what, of course it's on the table. Think again because the c/b may spend little time on the table. Once again it's because of type and speed of stroke.

Your finding out what a smooth stroke indeed accomplishes. Of course you don't always use that stroke depending on your options. For most normal shots however, you do. There are a number of shots that dictate certain strokes as most of you know. It's knowing how (and even when) you want whitey to react and knowing what stroke to use.

Rod

Tom_In_Cincy
07-29-2004, 04:53 PM
Rod,
Interesting view. I think I understand what you are saying and also think that it may be close to explaining the NEW results of my efforts.

I have another practice session tonite. I will be doing more drills that involve left and right side hits. I am going to try them at different speeds and see if my expectations are met.

If this keeps up, my confidence level during matchups will be shattered. Right now, I don't know what to expect on any shot.

Thanks for the reply.

stickman
07-29-2004, 05:20 PM
Tom, I'm experiencing the same thing. I'm having to learn to use my new cue. I installed an Everest tip on my new cue, and it grips the ball unbelievably. I've been shooting softer and using far less english (side). Until I get used to it, it has wrecked my game, but I'm determined to make the adjustment. It is so easy to get action from the cueball that I tend to over-do it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
07-29-2004, 05:56 PM
One of many such shots is your side pocket drill. As an example try this, emphasis on smooth slow stroke. Set this up, it can be much closer to the pocket, doesn't make a big difference unless it's real close to the pocket, then follow with top right. Note the harder you hit this the less the c/b will follow the true angle with spin. For instance A is firm B is much slower.
START(
%AX3E8%BG1N3%CF2M6%DE7K7%EG6K8%FE9M0%GH7I9%HH0J5%I F3I6%PL1Q8
%Qk1Y0%Rp9R5%U[9B4%VG7V6%Yq0R6%ZX9C6%eC4`5
)END

Another is a ball in front of a pocket, If you use top more firm to follow you can't get out of the hole. A good center smooth stroke brings it back up about half table. These are appx and it depends on equipment and cloth conditions. You will work the pocket some but the overall effect is the same.

START(
%Aq4E4%BG1N3%CF2M6%DE7K7%EG6K8%FE9M0%GH7I9%HH0J5%I F3I6%PN7Y7
%Vf4_1%Ys3D4%ZM6Z5%eB3a4
)END

Another is an old classic draw shot, it is to me anyway, lol. If there was not a ball in the way a soft draw brings it back up table quite easy,but there is a ball in the way. Soft draw runs directly into the o/b even if you work the pocket. Another way is firm because you want the c/b to leave the table. It's that slight bounce and a tad of cue elevation that delays c/b reaction and creates a different angle.

START(
%AH7G5%Bq6M6%C^4X9%DL7Y5%Eh2D6%FM6H8%GF9S4%HE7P0%I U2W4%PL9J7
%Vf4_1%YC9D0%Z^5W5%eB2b8%_J1F4%`P9H0%aq8U3
)END

Just some examples but one can shoot any shot to see the effects of speed, stroke and cue angle.

Rod

tateuts
07-29-2004, 10:17 PM
With a softer stroke, the english grabs the rail better, I think because it stays on the rail longer instead of immediately rebounding.

Many players have no idea how much more spin they can get off a rail with a soft shot. That spin also translates to cueball speed off the rail.

Chris

Rod
07-29-2004, 11:26 PM
Very true Chris, I'm not so sure it stays on the rail any longer. But the slow speed does give it more time to react. We'd need a rail rebound meter. LOL

Rod

stickman
07-30-2004, 02:27 AM
It's really obvious on bank shots with english or a rail shot when you want to draw the cueball back down the table with low outside english. A slow soft shot with english reacts off the rail more than a harder shot. I was familiar with that, but I slowed down to try to understand how my new tip was reacting. With my ordinary stroke some wild things were happening. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I was getting more cueball action than I ever thought possible. It will take some adjustment. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SPetty
07-30-2004, 08:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Right now, I don't know what to expect on any shot. <hr /></blockquote>HAHAHA! Welcome to my world! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Chris Cass
07-30-2004, 08:23 AM
Don't hate the messanger. Hi Jim,

The Everest if a fine tip. It does cater to the slow stroke but it more or less stays with the cb longer and induces spin easy. Regardless, if english is used. It simplifys the game quite a bit. Getting from a to b isn't a problem but keeping yourself from getting too ancy. LOL
As SPetty put it, welcome to Efens world.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
07-30-2004, 08:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Rod,
Interesting view. I think I understand what you are saying and also think that it may be close to explaining the NEW results of my efforts.

I have another practice session tonite. I will be doing more drills that involve left and right side hits. I am going to try them at different speeds and see if my expectations are met.

If this keeps up, my confidence level during matchups will be shattered. Right now, I don't know what to expect on any shot.

Thanks for the reply. <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Tom,

Don't let this get to you or rather get in your head. Just shoot like you normally would but expect to just stay calm and go with the flow. This stroke is good for One Pocket and the harder more stun action would be for 9 ball. Straight Pool is another way of stroking too. I think you'll need to pay close attention to your bridge length.

Take care, it'll all come togather soon. Just let it happen and don't look too deep into what could happen but more like what is happening.

Regards,

C.C.~~I see a move up in class soon. did I say 11-5? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Eric.
07-30-2004, 09:30 AM
It seems like the close to center hit with Back Hand English works well too. I prefer to use BHE and a close-to-center hit when I need some spin and the shot is 2 or 3 diamonds away. It seems to reduce the amount of deflection on the shot while giving me the same amount of spin.


Eric

rah
07-30-2004, 10:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Rod,
Interesting view. I think I understand what you are saying and also think that it may be close to explaining the NEW results of my efforts.

I have another practice session tonite. I will be doing more drills that involve left and right side hits. I am going to try them at different speeds and see if my expectations are met.

If this keeps up, my confidence level during matchups will be shattered. Right now, I don't know what to expect on any shot.

Thanks for the reply. <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Tom,

Don't let this get to you or rather get in your head. Just shoot like you normally would but expect to just stay calm and go with the flow. This stroke is good for One Pocket and the harder more stun action would be for 9 ball. Straight Pool is another way of stroking too. I think you'll need to pay close attention to your bridge length.

Take care, it'll all come togather soon. Just let it happen and don't look too deep into what could happen but more like what is happening.

Regards,

C.C.~~I see a move up in class soon. did I say 11-5? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Tom, this is great that you are doing this. I don't know exactly why it is good to learn to control the cue ball with center, so just realize that the true advantage to practicing with center ball is to learn to get shape using the natural angles. Sometimes using center ball is the easiest way to go for position anyway. Also remember that sometimes you need to hit harder with center ball to get the desired position.

It is better to pick a style and STICK WITH IT. The best style is using a little bit of english to get rid of the clinging/throwing effect that comes with center ball. Keith McCready loves to use inside english, but he is consistent with it. He has chosen his style. Watch the pros: they throw the object ball into the pocket using a little english. 9 ball requires a lot of this spinning action. I know every body is thinking that the old timers used more center ball, but I don't think this is true. This was evident to me when watching "The Ledgends of Pool".

My advice is to pick a style or you will drive yourself crazy, believe me. Been there, done that, still doing that LOL.

Tom_In_Cincy
07-30-2004, 11:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Chris Cass wrote;

Don't let this get to you or rather get in your head. Just shoot like you normally would but expect to just stay calm and go with the flow. This stroke is good for One Pocket and the harder more stun action would be for 9 ball. Straight Pool is another way of stroking too. I think you'll need to pay close attention to your bridge length.

Take care, it'll all come togather soon. Just let it happen and don't look too deep into what could happen but more like what is happening.

Regards,

C.C.~~I see a move up in class soon. did I say 11-5? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Instead of practicing last nite, I got into a friendly 9 ball matchup cheap sets race to 5, giving a friend the breaks and 8.
We ended up even.
My game was, at times, 1 or 2 balls better than my average. But there were times that I got out (using my softer stoke and staying closer to center) that even surprized me. I had a 3 pack on a table that I usually cannot run a single. I still haven't sync'ed up with my confidence and performance. I am aware that this will take some time. I was more surprized when I made the shots and got shape than I have ever been.
To me, that is saying a lot, I've been playing almost 15 years without a noticable difference in my skill level, but just my consistancy. Although 'consistancy' is a huge accomplishment for me, I don't remember the last time I got this excited about a skill level JUMP. If this is what it is.
I seem to be seeing the result of the shot prior to the execution, much better and I know that has a lot to do with it.

As far as having a mental problem, I have to have a brain first.
No paralysis by analysis for me.
My luck is only superceded by my practice time.

I read that the 'zone' is a glimpse of how you could play if you practiced correctly and played competively with respect to time.

I am tickled pink with this new Epiphany.

Rod
07-30-2004, 12:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I seem to be seeing the result of the shot prior to the execution, much better and I know that has a lot to do with it.
<hr /></blockquote>

You bet it does Tom. From the past discussions on what it takes to be a good player many or some thought it was killer instinct. While I don't discount that thought, I've always thought visualization is the key.

If you can see into the future - if you will, it takes the guesswork out of a shot. When you know or expect something to happen it free's your mind. With a free and clear mind you just let it happen. That is a huge confidence builder, and we all know how much better we play with confidence. Don't we?

I'm glad to hear you jumped a notch, that's always welcome. At our young age, lol that doesn't happen all that often. Makes you feel like a kid again eh?

Rod

tateuts
07-30-2004, 01:03 PM
What you are experiencing is the finesse game. I think you're right that this could be the jumping point you've been looking for and at worst it will add a whole new dimension to your ability to get around the table.

Thing to do is use it to improve your pattern play. Now you will be able to go forward one, two, and three rails like never before - so you can plan these angles in your patterns when necessary.

Here's an example of the kind of shot you can now play - use inside english to go under the two ball:

START(
%Ar7O8%Bq0O8%Lo3T1%OJ5M0%Pp0V2%Us0F1%Vr4O0%_m9H6%` r9P3%ap5U3

)END

WEI Table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

You can also practice is just getting shape with soft shots by controlling the speed with no spin at all. It's funny how players tend to overlook the obvious rail shots that you can hit softly with just follow. This adds a dimension of reliability and precision to the game as well.

One word of caution. With the new finesse game there is an extreme where you can get "too cute" with it and start missing shots and spinning the balls out of the pocket. You'll know when that happens.

chris

Tom_In_Cincy
07-30-2004, 01:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Rod wrote:
"At our young age, lol that doesn't happen all that often. Makes you feel like a kid again eh?" <hr /></blockquote>

Almost 40 years of playing and learning and I still get excited when I learn something that I can put to use.

I'll spend alot of time at the practice table, hopfully working this new stoke into my 'game'.

Tom_In_Cincy
07-30-2004, 01:18 PM
tateuts,
Sorry, maybe I didn't explain this correctly. I haven't had many problems (no more than my usual) in the past with 2 or 3 rail position shots. Getting around the table hasn't be that big a problem. I am an experienced player.

Having said that, I now find myself performing the same, but keeping the contact of the cue ball closer to center when applying left or right english. And also being even more consistant.
Slowing down the stroke and aiming closer to the center of the cue ball has helped so much that I am getting more than I expected. This has been the problem. Adjusting to this is what I am doing at the practice table.

You can see some of my practice drills on my site www.geocities.com/cincytom314 (http://www.geocities.com/cincytom314)

stickman
07-30-2004, 03:42 PM
HaHa! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I don't hate anyone. I love the tip. I used to think my Talisman gripped the ball well. I just need to make the adjustment. LOL I don't need to work as hard to do what I want to do.

I finally had a delamination with one of my Talismans. I don't know if he did anything to help it, but it was beginning to become spongy, and was clicking. He has used it for breaking, and plays about 3-4 hours daily. He had it for only about 2 months. I won't replace many of them before I replace them with something else. This guy is very picky, and complains about everything, but I can't say anything when the tips start falling apart. Maybe he'd like an Everest. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tateuts
07-30-2004, 04:23 PM
Oh... now I get it. I thought you were just discovering the soft spin stroke and what you can do with it.

Chris