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dmgwalsh
08-05-2004, 08:46 AM
I had a straight pool lesson with Tom Karabotsos in Chicago yesterday. After a while I turned into a rack boy, however I told him to just keep shooting and tell me what he was doing and why on each shot. hopefully, some of what he showed me will sink in. I just tried to put down some of the things he told me before I forget them and thought I'd share them with you guys for whatever they are worth. These may be things you people already know, but maybe not.

LESSON WITH KARABOSTSOS

On typical break shot use a lot of high and hit it with pace so it goes through the rack

get used to hitting balls into the top pockets from all angles. (He says a lot of guys try to avoid the long shot to the top, even when those shots lie better)

start looking for or creating break ball immediately

move break ball to a better spot when you can, especially if you can't get in trouble doing so.

on opposite side break shots, get the cue a little more uptable to comfortably bridge

hard shots in the side use low (high and hard will probably bobble)

on long break shots, try to get the angle a little straighter, and use draw

know how the balls will break

try to predict exactly where you hit the rack and what will move where

use english to change contact point on object ball, thus tangent line for position

use english to throw object ball

use english to effect how the ball you carom into after hitting the object ball will go. English and playing for throw will change the tangent line thus the point of contact, but apparently how the cue ball is spinning, left or right when it hits the last ball will effect where that ball goes too.

This last point surprised me, but I guess I did see it mentioned in an old Johnny Holiday book.

Do you guys have any comments or any additional hints for an aspiring 14.1 player? Dennis

Chris Cass
08-05-2004, 08:59 AM
Hi Dennis,

I would like to point out that the corners of the rack are the weakest point and you don't need much power to get a good spred. Along with that, it means the balls inbetween are the solid part of the rack requiring more power to spred. Make sence? lol

The high isn't for everything. It's all relevent to where the break shot is and where the cb lays. Tom is a very good straight pool player. I used to play with him yrs ago. I've sat for many times as I watched him pick apart the rack. That was when my wife was 4 mths pregnant with Spike.

He may not remember me but he knew me as Chris Cass. Don't recall if I ever beat him. I probably didn't otherwise I probably would brag about it. LOL J/K

My best straight pool game was when I was 16 yrs old. I'd been shooting a yr. I like to play and have recently started again to teach Heide and Christ about it and it's value to their playing all games.

Tom is a very good instructor. I don't know if he's BCA qualified but he knows how to convey his thoughts very well. Glad to hear someone is taking advantage of learning the game.

Regards,

C.C.

dooziexx
08-05-2004, 09:01 AM
Sounds like too much work... quit 14.1 and play 9 ball....

Chris Cass
08-05-2004, 09:05 AM
Hi Dooz,

It is but it's so relaxing when the ph is quiet and it's a laid back day. Now days though, the halls are all noisey and 9 ball seems to be the game that gets along with loud music. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~ck your pm's bud.

dmgwalsh
08-05-2004, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Dennis,

I would like to point out that the corners of the rack are the weakest point and you don't need much power to get a good spred. Along with that, it means the balls inbetween are the solid part of the rack requiring more power to spred. Make sence? lol

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah that makes sense. I noticed on some breaks he'd hit it pretty soft, probably cuz that was all he needed to get some balls out and keep the cue ball near.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>
The high isn't for everything. It's all relevent to where the break shot is and where the cb lays.
<hr /></blockquote>

That was on a typical ideal break shot probably about 35 degrees or so cue ball then going into the middle or upper part of the side of the rack.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>

Tom is a very good instructor. I don't know if he's BCA qualified but he knows how to convey his thoughts very well. Glad to hear someone is taking advantage of learning the game.

Regards,

C.C.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, the lesson started out kind of slow. Neither he nor I knew exactly what I wanted to learn. Later, it felt like watching the Rempe instructional or the Sigel instructional tape where they were explaining what they were doing, with the bonus that I could stop him ask questions and he might show me what would happen if he did it a different way.

Dennis

dmgwalsh
08-05-2004, 09:16 AM
thanks, but I think not. I like this game too much.D

Wally_in_Cincy
08-05-2004, 09:42 AM
I'm far from an expert but here goes:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr>
On typical break shot use a lot of high and hit it with pace so it goes through the rack

<hr /></blockquote>

As long as it doesn't bounce off and scratch in the lower corner. Like Cass said, lately I have been going for the corner balls more often, as I was having a problem with becoming stuck in the stack when going straight at it.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr>
get used to hitting balls into the top pockets from all angles. (He says a lot of guys try to avoid the long shot to the top, even when those shots lie better)<hr /></blockquote>

Unfortunately you sometimes have no choice but to shoot these so you might as well be prepared to make them.

One strange problem I have had recently is this, my secondary break shots are pushing balls to the lower short rail and I end up with 3 or 4 balls down there with no way to make them. Sucks /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

woody_968
08-05-2004, 09:56 AM
Good post Dennis, and glad to hear the lesson went well. This is a great game, there are so many things to learn, makes it much more interesting than nine ball.

IMO one of the main things in straight pool is the patterns one chooses to play. Learning to get balls off the rails early. How to see when there are stop shot patterns, and how to get out by moving the cueball the least (this has helped all my games). Learning to pick out the break ball, key ball, and ball to get on the key ball.

Well gotta get back to work, Ill be watching this thread /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Popcorn
08-05-2004, 10:03 AM
That is all solid advice, but when you are learning to play straight pool you want to do things that adapt to your level of play and build from there. What a pro does is not the same as what an average player may do because of the different skill levels. This is most evident in choice of key balls and break shots. Obviously the better player will do most everything better then the weaker player, but the weaker player can play a more simplistic game more suited to them and will find themselves getting past more breaks and running balls right away. Straight pool is a lot a game of know-how. although you may come with a tough shot or position plays, for the most part you are doing fairly simple things strung together well within the abilities of an average player. A lot of what keeps a player from running balls are their own doing. They paint themselves into a corner without a backdoor. You don't want to be doing things that "Have to work of you are dead" where as a pro may and not worry about it. Getting the balls off is not brain surgery but you do need to know how to do it in a way that works for you. You don't have to be a champ to play a respectable game of straight pool. I hope this makes some sense.

dmgwalsh
08-05-2004, 11:15 AM
good point. I noticed Tom doing things that looked easy for him, but would have been very difficult for me.
Lots of things to practice.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-05-2004, 11:28 AM
Please share with me when you learn how to avoid my problem.

As long as I have played 14.1, my biggest problem was my HEAD.

I would be thinking, "if I make this shot, I get 14, if I miss my opponent gets 14" That's a 28 ball swing. It still kills me everytime I think about it.

"Still stupid after all these years."&lt;-----yeah,,, that's me.

dmgwalsh
08-05-2004, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Please share with me when you learn how to avoid my problem.

As long as I have played 14.1, my biggest problem was my HEAD.

I would be thinking, "if I make this shot, I get 14, if I miss my opponent gets 14" That's a 28 ball swing. It still kills me everytime I think about it.

"Still stupid after all these years."&lt;-----yeah,,, that's me. <hr /></blockquote>

I used to clench up on break shots with the predictable result. Lately, that hasn't happened too much. A guy I play with is pretty good at just going up there and putting the ball down, and I've tried to just relax and imagine the ball going in and not think about the break after I get down for the shot. helps a bit.

Popcorn
08-05-2004, 11:39 AM
I think I need to explain what I meant by pros playing differently. There may be a certain pattern that is apparent but that is not necessarily the way they will run the balls. Their ability lets them get away with doing things differently and still get the same result. A pro may shoot several balls in the same pocket pulling the cue ball back each time for no other reason then the balls are there and he doesn't want to be circling the table if he doesn't have to. A lesser player may be better off sticking with the pattern and not taking any chances. Pros often play a somewhat loose game of straight pool and not strict pattern play although they see them.

tateuts
08-05-2004, 11:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr>Do you guys have any comments or any additional hints for an aspiring 14.1 player? Dennis <hr /></blockquote>

I used to play a lot of straight pool. Here's a couple of tips:

-Every shot, no matter how short or simple, requires 100% effort and a plan. Straight pool is a grinding game, not a freewheeling game.

- After your break shot, when there is congestion in the center of the table, locate key balls to pocket to clear the table instead of trying to break up the clusters.

I like to shoot into the corner pockets and back to the sides to open up the center of the table.

Here's an example:

START(
%AL7N2%BN8T6%CH7P9%DM1K4%EM9R3%FD4I6%GO9N2%HO0L9%I R1O3%JL8G8
%KG1I6%LE1R0%ML1U0%NI7R8%OD5N4%PI0M7
)END


WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

An example of what I'm talking about is shoot the 11 in the corner, 1 back in the side, 14 in the corner, and 8 in the side. Doing so opens up the entire center of the table and you can start clearing the rails.



Chris

justbrake
08-05-2004, 11:46 AM
Hi-Dennis, Mike Sigel says always go into the rack on an angle, and try to put english on the ball to bring you out to towards the center of the table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif by the way his high run is 339, dennis did you ever watch his video!

Steve

dmgwalsh
08-05-2004, 11:47 AM
I like to shoot into the corner pockets and back to the sides to open up the center of the table.

That's another thing Karabotsos talked about. shooting a ball or two into the side or corner sometimes opens up the rack a lot better by just getting the ball out of the middle.

Eric.
08-05-2004, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
As long as it doesn't bounce off and scratch in the lower corner. Like Cass said, lately I have been going for the corner balls more often, as I was having a problem with becoming stuck in the stack when going straight at it. <hr /></blockquote>


Wal,

Joe Tucker has some good ideas as far as where you hit on the stack and what you should be putting on the CB. The gist of it is that there are 3 places on each ball that you can hit on the break shot. Depending on where the CB contacts the ball on the stack(high/middle/low) is what you should be adjusting for to get the CB free and back to center table.

Good stuff.


Eric

woody_968
08-05-2004, 12:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>
-Every shot, no matter how short or simple, requires 100% effort and a plan. Straight pool is a grinding game, not a freewheeling game.

<hr /></blockquote>

This is one of the reasons I really like this game!

dooziexx
08-05-2004, 05:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmgwalsh:</font><hr> thanks, but I think not. I like this game too much.D <hr /></blockquote>

Dude, I was just busting your chops... I know you have a thing for 14.1. Next time we hook up, we should play a game say to 150. I'd bet you'd kick my ass!!!!

dmgwalsh
08-05-2004, 06:08 PM
Don't know that I'd beat you, dooze my man, but it would be fun trying. game to 150 would probably take about 3 hours. Not for the short attention span nine-ballers /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Just kidding!
Maybe go to my new club in a couple of weeks. Dennis

Bob_Jewett
08-05-2004, 08:51 PM
&gt; On typical break shot use a lot of high and hit it with pace so it goes through the rack

At the NJ State C'ship last year, I think Hohmann never played the shot this way (which was the way Mosconi, Caras, Crane, ... played it). He tended to use about a half ball cut and near-nine-ball-break speed. His goal was to leave no two balls within six inches of each other. Since he ran 404 by the time he was 22, his style may be worth noting.

&gt; on opposite side break shots, get the cue a little more uptable to comfortably bridge

Since Hohmann usually broke from the head rail, which side the object ball was on didn't matter to him too much.

&gt; hard shots in the side use low (high and hard will probably bobble)

I see no physical reason why this should be true.

&gt; use english to change contact point on object ball, thus tangent line for position

Since this can change the tangent line by only four degrees or so, I think this is useful only when the position play is at the absolute edge of what's possible. Do you have an example of where this might be used?

&gt; Do you guys have any comments or any additional hints for an aspiring 14.1 player? Dennis

Get the standard 14.1 authors, but don't just read them -- go to the table and try the shots they are talking about. Cranfield, Fels, Capelle, Byrne, Martin. (From what I remember of Holiday, I wouldn't recommend him.)

Chris Cass
08-05-2004, 11:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> Since he ran 404 by the time he was 22, his style may be worth noting.

Awesome.

&gt; use english to change contact point on object ball, thus tangent line for position

Since this can change the tangent line by only four degrees or so, I think this is useful only when the position play is at the absolute edge of what's possible. Do you have an example of where this might be used? <hr /></blockquote>

START(
%Ap3F2%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pp8Q0%Wg5D0%Xo7F8%Y P3N0%Zf3C7
%eA8b1
)END
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

C.C.

Rod
08-06-2004, 12:42 AM
Chris,

I'm thinking this isn't what he had in mind.

dmgwalsh
08-06-2004, 03:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> &gt; On typical break shot use a lot of high and hit it with pace so it goes through the rack

At the NJ State C'ship last year, I think Hohmann never played the shot this way (which was the way Mosconi, Caras, Crane, ... played it). He tended to use about a half ball cut and near-nine-ball-break speed. His goal was to leave no two balls within six inches of each other. Since he ran 404 by the time he was 22, his style may be worth noting.

I read a thread here about the harder breaks of Hohmann and maybe other Europeans, too. Do you yourself break that way or do you break the more traditional way?

&gt; on opposite side break shots, get the cue a little more uptable to comfortably bridge

Since Hohmann usually broke from the head rail, which side the object ball was on didn't matter to him too much.

&gt; hard shots in the side use low (high and hard will probably bobble)

I see no physical reason why this should be true.

&gt; use english to change contact point on object ball, thus tangent line for position

Since this can change the tangent line by only four degrees or so, I think this is useful only when the position play is at the absolute edge of what's possible. Do you have an example of where this might be used?

he was doing it down by the bottom rail with a lot of balls down there, so that he wouldn't bump a ball that he wanted to shoot next. It just seemed very precise.

&gt; Do you guys have any comments or any additional hints for an aspiring 14.1 player? Dennis

Get the standard 14.1 authors, but don't just read them -- go to the table and try the shots they are talking about. Cranfield, Fels, Capelle, Byrne, Martin. (From what I remember of Holiday, I wouldn't recommend him.) <hr /></blockquote>

Yes Holiday is a little confusing and sermonizes a little.
I've read the straight pool bible a couple of times, All of Fels and I have his tape and played a few games with him. Capelle- Play your best straight pool is great. I've gon through it twice so far, there's so much in it. Byrne is good. Were you referring to Martin's 99 shots?

Anyway, I was curious about the english which is still on the cueball after contacting the object ball, what effect it has on another ball it caroms into. I was trying to experiment with it last night, but I'm not sure if I consistently hit the object ball at the same spot. Would for example left english on the cue ball, after contact with the object ball caroming off to the left into another ball throw that ball more to the right compared to a center ball carom? I'm not sure that I'm saying this right but if I am, you are probably the guy that has the answer.

dmgwalsh
08-06-2004, 03:51 AM
I was just mentioning for example hitting the ball in with a little english, so you can throw the ball in and hold up the cue ball to keep a better angle on your next shot.
START(
%AM9O9%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EJ7R0%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LF4O9%MK6Q4%NE4J7%OJ5M9%PE4N3%eC5a3
)END

Righty
08-06-2004, 03:54 AM
My straight pool lesson for all of you:

1. You don't NEED a break ball, after all, you get more power and a better spread if you just break with the cueball into the pack as hard as you can.
2. When you keep score, for every point you make, add another here and there. It helps you win. For every point your opponent scores, remove a few here and there, this also helps you win.
3. Remember, straight pool is a BEGINNERS game. It doesn't require cueball control since you can shoot at any ball. Straight pool is NOTHING compared to the incredibly skillful games like 7-ball.
4. Always remember to multiply your actual high run x2 whenever someone asks you what your high run is.
5. Now for the more advanced parts: When you use sidespin, like left english, it will transfer right english to the object ball. This will make the object ball suddenly move right. So, say you have an impossible 90 degree cut to the side pocket. All you have to do is use the opposite spin to where the pocket is located, and the ball will magically go right in.
6. This also works for bottom and top spin. If you put top spin on the cueball, when you hit the object ball, you will transfer bottom to it. This will make the object ball suddenly come back towards you really fast, so watch out!
7. Never chalk your cue. Chalk is messy.
8. It is ok to use alot of talcum powder, however. Sometimes to add strategy to my game, I pour alot of talcum powder on the table, and pretend that im walking in a winter wonderland.
9. Well, I hope this has helped you. Take care and have fun!

Chris Cass
08-06-2004, 07:08 AM
Your probably right.

Thanks,

C.C.

#### leonard
08-06-2004, 07:11 AM
I would say number one is wrong I never hit a break shot with follow. What usually happens is the cueball collides with a ball near the rail and kisses into the corner pocket.####

rukiddingme
08-06-2004, 07:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Righty:</font><hr> My straight pool lesson for all of you:

1. You don't NEED a break ball, after all, you get more power and a better spread if you just break with the cueball into the pack as hard as you can.
2. When you keep score, for every point you make, add another here and there. It helps you win. For every point your opponent scores, remove a few here and there, this also helps you win.
3. Remember, straight pool is a BEGINNERS game. It doesn't require cueball control since you can shoot at any ball. Straight pool is NOTHING compared to the incredibly skillful games like 7-ball.
4. Always remember to multiply your actual high run x2 whenever someone asks you what your high run is.
5. Now for the more advanced parts: When you use sidespin, like left english, it will transfer right english to the object ball. This will make the object ball suddenly move right. So, say you have an impossible 90 degree cut to the side pocket. All you have to do is use the opposite spin to where the pocket is located, and the ball will magically go right in.
6. This also works for bottom and top spin. If you put top spin on the cueball, when you hit the object ball, you will transfer bottom to it. This will make the object ball suddenly come back towards you really fast, so watch out!
7. Never chalk your cue. Chalk is messy.
8. It is ok to use alot of talcum powder, however. Sometimes to add strategy to my game, I pour alot of talcum powder on the table, and pretend that im walking in a winter wonderland.
9. Well, I hope this has helped you. Take care and have fun! <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks so much for the lesson. I'm so happy to see that others follow the same rules I do... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
ruk

dmgwalsh
08-06-2004, 08:04 AM
both rempe and sigel say that if the angle is more acute than straight, you should use follow. Are we talking about the same thing? What do you use on that kind of a shot where for example the cue ball is near the left side pocket and the object ball is 3 or 4 inches to the left of the rack, near the middle of the rack? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

mickey2
08-06-2004, 08:57 AM
„What usually happens is the cueball collides with a ball near the rail and kisses into the corner pocket”


I am pretty sure Leonard means this one:

START( %AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5 %KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OC4L6%PS9K9%_D1D5%`D3L6%a R7L0 )END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

Although I have not seen Hohmann playing 14/1 I believe he is not the only one who really break balls with maximum speed. I think that Ortmann and Engert, a terrific 14/1 player, do the same.
A 14/1 Mosconi-Cup would be great!

I guess the problem with this style is that you really need a good technique, like Popcorn said you have to adopt your style to your skill level.

#### leonard
08-06-2004, 09:02 AM
I would play inside English and center ball. Johnny Ervolino told Cueball 1950 that I was the best he ever saw at cutting balls backwards into the pocket and breaking the rack. Johnny told me when we were finished playing, that he always played safe on the extreme backward cut, but after seeing me make the shot and the way the rack broke. He was going to practice that shot when he got back to New York.####

dmgwalsh
08-06-2004, 09:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote #### leonard:</font><hr> I would play inside English and center ball. Johnny Ervolino told Cueball 1950 that I was the best he ever saw at cutting balls backwards into the pocket and breaking the rack. Johnny told me when we were finished playing, that he always played safe on the extreme backward cut, but after seeing me make the shot and the way the rack broke. He was going to practice that shot when he got back to New York.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Well, I'm gonna do like Johnny E and try to practice it your way tonight. Thanks for the tip. Where would the cue ball generally go? Is this just on a very extreme angle? Thanks. Dennis

qstroker2004
08-06-2004, 10:30 PM
As someone else asked, how extreme is an extreme cut for you? I have found that on very, very thin cuts I am at a 50/50 chance of another ball knocking my break ball out of the way even if it was going toward the pocket. There comes a point when the ball rolls too slowly, even if it can be made.

If I can determine that I am going to hit a ball in the pack head on I will usually follow into it and drive through the pack. It won't go to a rail in this case. I assume when you use inside center ball your objective is for the cue ball to rebound straight into the side rail, and then come up to the center of the table due to the inside english. Now, if you are hitting the bottom side of a ball in the rack, then driving through like I would do might cause the cue ball to get bounced into a scratch like you describe, while I assume you cue ball with center ball will tend to rebound into the side rail just above the corner pocket, lessening the chance of an unlucky scratch. Does this describe the situation correctly?

Oh, I kind of gave up on the center ball thing because I found that the cue ball rarely made it back to the side rail anyway, and I seemed to get very good results with follow. Maybe I was getting a little follow and not realizing it. Also the cue ball would move slowly enough that the inside english didn't do much by the time it would occasionally get near the side rail. Maybe the follow method scratches 1 in 50 while the center ball method scratches 1 in 500. At a high level of play I suppose this makes a big difference.

thanks,
dwhite

Chris Cass
08-06-2004, 10:52 PM
Hi Q,

Please do me a favor and use the Wei table to describe the shot your talking about. There's odviously two different conversations going on here between you and #### Leonard. If #### says it's a good chance of scratching? It is.

That was the first thing I thought. That's also the first thing I taught my wife not to do also. She still hasn't listened to me yet and I see her caroming of the pack and straight in the corner pocket.

Certain angles are just that way and that's the rule of thumb.imho Now, a back cut is usually hit with a draw into the pack if possible. Time shots are time shots. That's the ones that you might just get enough of the ball to make it. The cb going much faster might just cause trouble with the path of the ball being made by other ob's.

This is almost not worth discussing unless we can convey these thoughts on the Wei table. We won't know what to think. We need that grid location.

Mr. Leonards high runs are in the 300 range. That's concidered World Beater by Phil Capelle and what he does left handed to me, is World Beater status. We here on the ccb are extremely appreciative of having such a valuable asset. With the addition of yourself. I concider this another mind we can get to tap into. Welcome Aboard! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

qstroker2004
08-06-2004, 11:54 PM
Hi Chris, I've been lurking here awhile, and posting on occasion when I see something interesting about 14.1. I am aware of Mr. Leonard's ability and I try to pick his brain when I see something I can learn from, as in this case. I've gotten pretty good at controlling the cue ball on the break, but I'm nowhere near in his league!

I'll just post a few Wei diagrams of what I'm saying. Hey, it is crystal clear to me, why doesn't everybody understand? lol

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

START(
%AN2J8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PV3G9%WH9G4%XM2J0%_ F5G6%`C2J0
%aI5L4
)END

This shot is too extreme because, for me, the break ball can run out of gas and get kicked out by another ball from the pack. I might make it 50/50 if I don't play safe.

START(
%AN3J8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PT9I2%WI0G3%XM2J0%Y N3L8%ZO4K5
%eB4`4
)END

On this break, with a firm stroke and follow, I know I am going to hit the 4 ball full on, or even a little high and run back through the pack. I can't scratch in the corner on this one if I've guaged the contact location on the pack correctly. This is the shot I thought Dick was talking about when using center inside english. If you do that, then the cue ball will do something like this:

START(
%AN3J8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PT3I7%WI0G3%XM2J0%Y N3L8%ZO4K5
%eC1a4%_X0L3%`N4C6%aM1M1
)END

It seems to me on the shot above that if you hit the high side of the 4 with center ball, you could end up with the cue ball in no man's land at the the head of the table. I guess you could similarly argue that if I hit the low side with follow that I could get caromed into the corner pocket, too. Like I said earlier, whenever I've tried this shot with center ball, even with speed, the cue ball just about makes it to the side rail, and maybe out just a little. It very well could be that I'm getting just a touch of follow instead of pure center. Of course with a firm stroke, any little force follow will put the brakes on.

I'm not in any way questioning whether Dick is right or not. I'm sure he is. I just wanted to add what I have seen, and to pick Dick's brain a little.

On another note, here's a shot you have to watch out for, too. This happened to me just the other day.

START(
%AL9K0%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PT4J1%WH5G4%XL1J3%Y M1L4%ZM6K9
%eB4`4%_D3[3%`S8O7%aL4L7
)END

I put a little extra juice on this break because I had a good solid angle on that second ball and, hey, it was impossible to scratch, right? I paid for that aggressiveness by scratching in the OTHER corner pocket, lol.

Lastly, I was at the tournament Bob Jewett was at in NJ when Hohmann was playing 14.1 along with a great field. Hohmann blasted the balls on the break, and often played a draw shot so that the cue ball would come up table, around 2 or 3 rails, and back into the mix for a shot on SOMEthing. Kind of shotgun approach, but maybe not as much shotgun as I realize. One of his breaks looked like this after all the dust from the explosion had settled:

START(
%AB6B6%BN4X0%CC8L5%DN9G4%ET6T0%FJ8S4%GP4J8%HR0N7%I U8E6%JI9K9
%KZ0P3%LE4N8%MN4P6%NG0T3%OF9I2%PH5P3%UJ3Q2%V_2[2%W`4[3%Xs3O3
%eB9b2%_s4N3%`d0N0%aN3M7
)END

The path of the cue ball is depicted and probably isn't exact, but you get the idea. I'm not sure how well this would work on slower cloth.

Anyway, hope that makes things clearer, and thanks for the welcome!

dwhite

Rod
08-07-2004, 12:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]

START(
%AL9K0%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PT4J1%WH5G4%XL1J3%Y M1L4%ZM6K9
%eB4`4%_D3[3%`S8O7%aL4L7
)END

I put a little extra juice on this break because I had a good solid angle on that second ball and, hey, it was impossible to scratch, right? I paid for that aggressiveness by scratching in the OTHER corner pocket, lol <hr /></blockquote>

That shot has bit me more than once. However not from your ball placement. It does seem near impossible from there and that angle. When I've scratched on this shot the ball is higher in the rack with less angle. Similar to this --
START(
%AN3J4%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PT4J1%WH3G1%XL8I5%Y M6M0%ZN3K5
%eB4`4%_D3[3%`S8O7%aM8M4
)END

Do you like shooting those break balls at that much angle and so close to the rack? I know I'd rather be less angle and farther from the pack.

Chris Cass
08-07-2004, 12:32 AM
Hi Qstroker,

After looking at the shots you've shown me. This is what I'm thinking I would do. Grated, I haven't played the game since I was 15-17 yrs old.

I shoot the first as you would. The second, with middle ball and a firm stroke. The third middle ball with a touch of left. The forth with middle ball.

I'm not planning on bringing the cb up table and also note that your hitting the pack in the meat of the rack too. The cb doesn't want to go very far. Therefore, you'd have to hit it pretty hard. Just enough to get a good spred and keep whitey controlled.

The shot that I had mentioned about going off the rack and scratching earlier was this.

START(
%AN0S0%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PX8R0%WO5R7%XW8R1%e C0a7
)END
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

If I hit this shot with lets say high ball right? I'd end up scratching as the side of the rack is noted for that. I'm also hitting the corner of the rack which is the weakest part so, if I use too much draw? I will end up at the head rail. So, I just use a little right below ctr to kill the cb. Well, enough draw to stop the enursha(sp) of the ball wanting to go forward.

I'm always willing to listen to new advice though. I appreciate the respect you've given Dick. I like the fact that your into the game too. It's exciting to hear someone talking about something other than 9 ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~good post bro

qstroker2004
08-07-2004, 11:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
That shot has bit me more than once. However not from your ball placement. It does seem near impossible from there and that angle. When I've scratched on this shot the ball is higher in the rack with less angle. Similar to this --
START(
%AN3J4%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PT4J1%WH3G1%XL8I5%Y M6M0%ZN3K5
%eB4`4%_D3[3%`S8O7%aM8M4
)END

Do you like shooting those break balls at that much angle and so close to the rack? I know I'd rather be less angle and farther from the pack.
<hr /></blockquote>

I don't generally like the object ball so close to the rack, but I don't know what is inherently wrong with being close. I imagine you can't modify the path of the cue ball at all since the break ball is so close, so that might be a negative. Also, it is a sharper cut into the pocket than a break ball that is closer to the side rail. You do have a smaller target, I think, as the ball gets closer to the side rail, though.

dwhite

I also probably had a little less angle as your example shows. However, I definitely scratched in the opposite corner pocket by hitting the second ball from the bottom, which was odd. I used a lot of follow, and a good firm stroke.

qstroker2004
08-07-2004, 12:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The shot that I had mentioned about going off the rack and scratching earlier was this.

START(
%AN0S0%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PX8R0%WO5R7%XW8R1%e C0a7
)END
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

If I hit this shot with lets say high ball right? I'd end up scratching as the side of the rack is noted for that. I'm also hitting the corner of the rack which is the weakest part so, if I use too much draw? I will end up at the head rail. So, I just use a little right below ctr to kill the cb. Well, enough draw to stop the enursha(sp) of the ball wanting to go forward.

I'm always willing to listen to new advice though. I appreciate the respect you've given Dick. I like the fact that your into the game too. It's exciting to hear someone talking about something other than 9 ball.
<hr /></blockquote>

Chris - Yes of course this is the textbook shot where you can scratch with follow. However, if the bb (break ball) is in the right spot, you can drive into the pack with follow even if you have a shallow angle. You just have to be sure you are going to contact the high side of a ball in the pack, like this:

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html
START(
%AM8S4%BL7P8%CM8Q6%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM8N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ4O5%PX7R2%WO6S1%XW8R1%e B4`5
)END

I've placed the 3 ball in the place where the cue ball will hit the pack. This might be higher risk, but if you are sure of where the cb is going, you will drive through the pack and not scratch. This might be the kind of shot Dick Leonard does not like because of the chance that the cue ball goes to the bottom rail instead of going through the pack. If it goes to the bottom rail, it might get kicked in.

In the break situation you posted, I would probably do as you did, and hit just below center stun. Depending on exactly how it is going into the 5, you might be able to hit it pretty firm, and the cue ball will drift along the tangent line to A (see below). Of course if you are wrong and you hit the 2 on the high side first, or the 5 too thin, then that firm draw will leave you at the head of the table.

START(
%AM8S2%BL7P8%CJ3L8%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM8N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ4O5%PN0Q3%QV8M0%UU8N3%V N9P9%WO6S1
%XW8R1%eB7a8
)END

If you aren't sure, then you can always hit it softer with a lot more draw and try to bump a few balls out without losing the cue ball up table.

I agree with you about 14.1. I only play 9 ball nowadays when I have to. It's fun, but limited. I think there is more strategy in just breaking the pack in 14.1 than there is in all of 9 ball. I don't mean to disparage the 9 ballers here, it's just my opinion.

Hopefully Dick Leonard will have some comments. I guess my main point is that if you really know where that cue ball is going to hit the pack, you have more options. If you have a shot like above where you can either blast it or baby it with draw, you might want to blast it on a table where the balls aren't opening, and vice versa for slick conditions.

regards,
dwhite

Rod
08-07-2004, 01:45 PM
Yes the target is a bit smaller. It's just for me with the rack that close, It's more difficult to aim plus if it's real thin I could get kissed out of the shot. I like many of course like the classic break shot. Another I'm fond of is a thin cut on the o/b but away from the rack.

START(
%AL2Y7%BL7P8%CJ4M0%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM8N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ4O5%PO2Z9%WK5S6%XM1W7%e B3a3
)END

No speed on the o/b but plenty of speed on the c/b. I'm not one to crush the rack unless the angle allows. It's to easy to loose whitey if it doesn't hit where you expect.

You know another thing if your playing under good conditions it's really not necessary to hit the rack very hard. If the balls are clean and new it makes a huge difference. They spread so easily. Where I play however the conditions are not very good for the older classic style of play. The balls are worn, don't rack tight, so they spread terrible with all those small gaps. Hitting the rack hard isn't my style so the game can suffer a bit.

Rod

Rod
08-07-2004, 02:12 PM
Chris your shot is another I don't hit very hard. I diagramed something similar in another post. I will hit it with some speed but not hard with less than a tip of follow. The end result is a little c/b curve to the rail and back out a tad. Your dead meat if you force follow, doesn't help cause you only hit the rack once. Like you said a scratch is in the making if you do. I try to take what the shot allows, nothing more if I'm thinking well.

Another part to my thinking is you only need a couple of shots in the area to work your way to another break shot after clearing a few balls. Sometimes the area gets to cluttered spreading to many balls. I'd rather have a little less and nudge a few balls along the way. If I plan it right I may only need to break out a small cluster. Then the few remaining balls are fairly easy to plan position for my next break.

Rod

qstroker2004
08-07-2004, 06:28 PM
That break you show looks a little dangerous, at least on Wei. It looks easy to scratch in the side, or lose the cue ball. I agree that you don't want to break any harder than necessary, or else the balls get all bunched up on the rails, or some other unusual situation happens. I'll take the Mosconi break every time if I can get it!

dwhite

Chris Cass
08-08-2004, 12:01 AM
Hi Rod,

I powder that ball, everytime. That shot I'll use high ball on. I'll push as deep as I can into that rack. The corner ball should be left for a 60 or 70% shot in the corner as the cb won't get totally through the pack as you know.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
08-08-2004, 12:06 AM
Hi Qstroker,

I like the 3 there. It tells me that I'm not scratching. I'm liking the way you think though. The Wei table isn't right anyway if you look closly you can tell by the diamonds. It's all we have and it's valuable to me. Helps get the ideas across so easily. I'm starting to like ya Q. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.