08-09-2004, 08:05 AM
what makes this tip-ferrule combo so powerfull,I heard them hit balls and it makes me turn around say wow! that's a hellava break but what causes this kind of material to make it hit so hard? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't know if I could say it's an edge in breaking but if your looking to scather the balls around it is.

Cueless Joey
08-09-2004, 08:16 AM
It's hard. Really hard but is very durable. It's really a canvas based phenolic.

Chris Cass
08-09-2004, 10:50 AM
It's got no give.


08-09-2004, 11:08 AM
Chris...It seems to me that a tip/ferrule combo using the Raven tips and say Ivorine, or a similar, hard ferrule material, would be so close to the tip-ferrule "all in one" unit, plus you'd still maintain changout options. I've also read here that the all in one tip does crack on occasion, and I'd personally find that really annoying and expensive. I tried one of these one piece systems once and I personally can't see what the hoop-la is all about. My Falcon with the bakelite tip works as well, and is a whole lot more fundamental and versatile(IMO.) I would imagine that the white Raven on the same cue would be darn close to the all in one deal...sid

08-10-2004, 09:08 AM
What makes it so powerful is that the phenolic, tip-ferrule or tip only, does not disipate force at the same rate that a leather tip would do.
In simple physics, the harder the material the stronger the hit.
If you could get a metal tip (hypothetically speaking) you will have a stronger break than the one with a phenolic tip (that is, if the cue ball will sithstand the hit without breaking)using the same breaking speed.
If you have a material that disipates the force that was provided at th4e point of impact then you will have a softer break and you will need to increase the power of the stroke.

Since breaking is a matter of power, then the phenolic tip or tip-ferrule will do so but you lose control. You cannot put english as you would with a leather tip due to the hardness of the phenolic one.

In conclusion, it is governed by the second law of Newton:

Newton's Second Law states that the acceleration (a) of an object is directly proportional to the force (F) applied, and inversely proportional to the object's mass (m). That is, the more force you apply to an object, the greater the rate of acceleration; and the more mass the object has, the lower the rate of acceleration.

a = F/m, or F = m

Since the mass of the leather tip is lower than the mass of the phenolic tip then the acceleration of the the break is greater with the phenolic tip, hence a stronger break.

The mass of the phenolic tip isgreater due that the molecule are more compact, meanning that they are closer and tighter together, in the leather tip you have air in between the layer and organic material with different properties the mass is lesser in the leather tips.

Hope this clears it out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

08-10-2004, 09:14 AM
so all you have to do is get this=

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=21212&item=3692433 221

put on any stick and you have a sledgehammer in other words. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

08-10-2004, 09:25 AM
Pretty close, I have a break cue that cost me 80 dollars, the tip is phenolic, the ferrule, the same as any Q, my break now has improved dramatically, You have to get used to it as you have to hit center for breaking, otherswise, your Q ball may end up in another table.

Remember though, as long as the Q has no air pockets in its construction then it will last; if, when it was manufactured, there are air pockets in the glue or anywhere else, then most likely it will break in that place.

As you can see most of the break cues, and break jump cues, look like one piece in the butt and the break, jump as usually wood to wood, in order to make it solid for it to break.

I( have a friend who owns a sledge hammer, breaks good but not that much difference from my 80 dollar Q, also another friend who purchased a no-name phenolic tipe-ferrule, for 270 dollars and breaks as well as the sledge hammer.


08-10-2004, 09:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote justbrake:</font><hr> so all you have to do is get this=

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;category=21212&amp;item=3692433 221

put on any stick and you have a sledgehammer in other words. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Wow, he has more Dial Indicators than i do... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



08-10-2004, 09:48 AM
Oh, and the only time i have seen a Phenolic Tip/Ferrule One Piece thingy crack, is when somebody used Linen Phenolic, instead of Canvas Phenolic. And in my experience, the canvas holds a little more chalk (and holds it longer, with no scuffing) than the linen, and is overall a better material for the said use.



08-10-2004, 10:17 AM
As it applies to a pool cue and the jump shot and break shot, the hardness of the tip has a "Point of diminishing returns". At a point the miscues and lack of control begin to offset any value the extra hardness of the tip may provide. The tip only needs to be so hard to produce a consistent jump and no harder, the same with the break. I have switched to the less hard, non phenolic white synthetic tips for jumping and breaking. They are not as soft as leather and not as hard as those using the phenolic resins. There is no loss of performance, with a lot of added control. The introduction of the phenolic tips demonstrated what could be done with a tip much harder then the common leather tip, but they themselves are not necessarily the ideal hardness. In my opinion they are too hard.

08-10-2004, 10:32 AM
If someone wants to go that route, they need to be sure the rod they buy is rolled and not stripped. The rolled rod even in linen will be less likely to crack, where as with the stripped it is a certainty. All the ones I have repaired have been stripped including those using canvas.

Chris Cass
08-10-2004, 11:11 AM
Hi Sid,

Well, if the one piece is made by Sledgehammer, it's gaurenteed for the life of the cue I believe. Rich owns one and I think it's one of their selling points. Just ship back and they ship back. You just eat one way.

I think they'll soon outlaw all the new tip materials in the future. Just my guess is all. I'm thinking it's all up for grabs now. You really only need the break cue for 9 ball really imho. I think the Raven wht is a fine tip for a ceramic. I don't see them exploding but I did pop the one off I used that was totally flat. My friend, still managed to glue it back on and was fine. Just a weak glue area is all. He used super glue instead of the gel. I think the jel is the best for that. Actuall, with these tips on the market one doesn't really have to worry about what jump cue they put it on. Break cues, another matter imho. Glad to see your still doing well with the Raven. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif That was the cheapest thing I ever spent to make a friend so happy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif



08-10-2004, 02:03 PM
Is the phenolic material ever in a liquid form? where do you buy phenolic tips from, who are the manufacturers?

Chris Cass
08-10-2004, 03:49 PM
You've got me brother?



08-10-2004, 08:59 PM
Well CC, you made a hit(pun) with me on that gift. Only drawback is that all of my jumpers are equipped with keepers for tips and I don't have an experimental extra JC to try new tips on. I'm on the prowl now for a real bargain in a Lucasi or Bungee as a candidate. I know a local player who picked up a Lucasi for 10 bucks...I'll buy one of those even though I now have one already.

I doubt seriously if the Raven will ever break down. It just keeps on hoppin', like the Energizer Bunny ;-) Thanks...sid

08-10-2004, 09:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rocky:</font><hr> Is the phenolic material ever in a liquid form? <font color="blue">Maybe in the molten form. </font color> where do you buy phenolic tips from, who are the manufacturers? <font color="blue">These are the ones I recommend: http://ravencues.com/ </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

08-11-2004, 06:23 AM
It seems to me that the difference in mass of a phenolic tip and a leather tip in comparison with the overall mass of the cue (and ball) wouldn't amount to much.

Off hand, I would think that the difference in hit is caused more by differences in momentum transfer brought about by differences in hardness. More of the force is transferred by the phenolic tip because it is harder (and thus less flexible) than the leather tip (which is more flexible and absorbs more energy).

Think of the difference between getting punched by a boxing glove and a bare fist with a weight in it equal to that of the glove. I'll take the glove any time! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As I understand it, the phenolic tips are made of material that is similar to the ball material. That gets the hardest hit because a tip made of anything harder than the ball would have a good chance of damaging the ball.


08-11-2004, 10:17 AM
The cueball actually wants to jump no matter what kind of tip you hit it with, enough force has usualy been transferred to the cue ball to make it jump. What happens from my understanding is the harder tip makes the cue bounce back off the cue ball, getting out of the way and letting it jump. In fact, even with the phenolic tip, if you don't have the correct technique to let this happen you trap the cue ball and it can't jump.

08-11-2004, 11:13 AM
That seems plausible to me.

I just meant that I don't think the mass difference in Phenolic vs. Leather tips is large enough compared to the rest of the physical system (ball and cue) to make that much of a difference regarding how "hard" one can hit a ball.

The difference occurs due to hardness of the tip material. Energy is dissipated when the leather tip strikes the ball due to its compressibility. With a harder tip, more energy is tranferred to the ball since the tip does not compress.

At least that's the way it seems to me.

What I am talking about relates to all collisions, not just pool balls and cues.