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View Full Version : BCA HOF Selections - Why Jones Before Fisher??



05-10-2002, 11:51 AM
Would someone here try to rationally explain to me why Loree Jon Jones gets nominated and elected in to the BCA Hall of Fame before Allison Fisher?

My personal opinion on the matter - there is clearly favoritism shown for American players not to mention considerable politics among the voting members of the HOF committee as to who is elected to serve on that committee, who the nominations go out to and who ultimately gets selected. If anyone from the BCA happens to read this post, I would be very interested in serving as a proprietor voting member of the HOF committee - although I think this post will eliminate any possible chance of that (LOL).

Yes, Allison is a few years younger than LJJ, but clearly more deserving - even if you throw out Allison's entire unparalelled snooker career up to the age of 27 (7 individual World Snooker titles and hundreds tournament titles). In Allison's first 6-7 years of competing at 9-ball she has already surpassed all of the meaningful titles Loree Jon has amassed in nearly a quarter century of competition.

When comparing U.S. Open and World 14.1 and 9-Ball titles, Lorree Jon has won a total of 5 in her career whereas Allison has already won 6 in her very short 9-ball / 14.1 career including a convincing victory over Loree Jon in the finals of the 2000 Women's U.S. Open - the only 14.1 national or world tourney Allison has ever competed in. If we then examine WPBA tour titles, Allison has also surpassed Loree Jon and I believe she's currently tied with Jean Balukus for the most total tour wins (roughly 35).

I'm not criticizing Loree Jon or her deserving selection in to the HOF - only stating that by simple comparison I think Allison was more deserving and should have made it first. Of course there is no bias in my feelings here (LOL). - Chris in NC

Tom_In_Cincy
05-10-2002, 12:06 PM
Chris..
I think you have to be at least 40 years old to be eligible
Some stupid BCA rule..

Rich R.
05-10-2002, 12:13 PM
Chis, I think we all know how you feel about Allison. I am sure she will be in the HOF some day. How could she not be included. It just won't be this year.
I don't happen to think that it is important who gets in first, as long as all the right people get in.
JMHO. Rich R.

Voodoo Daddy
05-10-2002, 12:29 PM
Chris...I never have found a reason to debate anything you have ever written until now. LJJ is more than deserving of the HOF. She has been a part of the industry since a very young age. What about Gereldine Titcombe or Fran Crimi? Are'nt they deserving? I for one am glad to see LJJ and Allison is for sure on her way...be patient. If the title issue is so important...how did Rempe get in before Strickland?...Just a question.

Voodoo...looking foward to all reponses

Ken
05-10-2002, 12:45 PM
Chris,
I think you answered your own question. "6-7 years of competing" versus "nearly a quarter century of competition". I think we might as well let allison play a few more years and see if she continues to dominate her competition. Let's not vote players into the HOF when they are still playing in their prime.
Ken in CT

Eric.
05-10-2002, 12:47 PM
What's going on, Tom?

Actually, I think Loree Jon is gonna be 37 this year.

Eric

05-10-2002, 12:50 PM
Chris, if there were an American bias there as you suggest, I really wouldn't have a problem with it. Although the BCA has global exposure, they are an American organization. Loree Jon reigned over women's pool for over a decade in this country. Why not recognize the people who made a difference in pool in this country first?

If they really wanted to, the BCA could choose to recognize American citizens only, but they don't. It may take longer for someone who's not of this country to be recognized, but they eventually do get inducted (like Raymond Ceulemans, for example).

Do you think Loree Jon would ever be inducted into a Hall of Fame in Great Britian?

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
05-10-2002, 12:53 PM
37.. that young? geez I remember seeing her play in the early 80s.. 20 years ago.. and she was only 17.. ...

Whooops... addition was never among my strong points.

And I was mistaken about the 40 year age limit.. I think the BCA was giving consideration to making that a requirement..

Ralph S.
05-10-2002, 12:59 PM
I think LLJ is the appropriate choice considering her number of years involved with the game. Her titles also givers her credibility as well as the pioneering efforts to further the advancement of womens billiards. I think AF is as awesome and talented player as any will ever see, but I can honestly say that I remember reading about LJJ in Sports Illustrated long before I ever heard af AF. just my take on the coversation.
Ralph S.

Jay M
05-10-2002, 01:08 PM
There was a key point made. It's not just about playing ability, although that does figure strongly. It's also about contribution to the sport itself...

Jay M

Eric.
05-10-2002, 01:19 PM
I think the 40 yr old limit your thinking of is to run for President of the U.S.(kiddin ya). I used to shoot with LJ. I knew her neighbor, who played with her and we would play at Paradise Billiards. Aside from all the pool acomplishments, she has to be one of the most pleasant people to talk to. Soft spoken, and just a very down to earth person.

Eric >thinks LJ is worthy

05-10-2002, 02:03 PM
Ken, a point of contention as far as your lack of longevity claim regarding Ms. Fisher's career, Allison won her first World snooker title in 1985 (at the age of 16) and is the current World 9-Ball Champion. That's a 17+ year span of total dominance in two totally different disciplines. As for what she's given back to the game, I don't wish to get in to that, but Allison has given back much as well. For instance, she has an upcoming charity benefit in PA (related to the 9/ll disaster) in which she waved her normal appearance fee.

Loree Jon won her first major title (14.1 U.S. Open) in 1981 and her last major title (at least to date) in 1993 (World 9-Ball title) at the tender age of 27. That's not much longevity IMO - and for most of that time she was considered the second best player behind Jean.

Please, I hope none of you get too bent out of shape by this thread. The topics have just been awfully dull on the board IMO for a while, so I thought I'd add a little stimulation / controversy to see if all of you are still here! - Chris in NC

MikeM
05-10-2002, 02:12 PM
IMO the BCA SHOULD focus on a player's accomplishments in America. The A does stand for America. That being the case, Allison is definitely a lock, just not right now. I don't know what their (BCA's) criteria are, maybe Randy G could help us here. I think twenty plus years justifies Loree John's election.

MM

PoolFan
05-10-2002, 02:30 PM
This is not a big deal. Fisher is definately bond for the Hall of Fame. As to LJJ, she is definately deserving of entering the HOF. She was the premiere player of the 80's for women's pool. She is one of the reasons the WPBA has done so well.

Fisher has done this for the 90's. She does have the titles and she has been a positive aspect of the game, which is why I have no doubt that she will be inducted in the future.

This type of debate could go on forever with many different players and situations. In the end, as long as the right people get in, that's all that matters. Now, if LJJ wasn't deserving than you'd have a reason to bitch. JMO.

Ken
05-10-2002, 02:40 PM
Chris I wholeheartedly vote for Allison for the snooker hall of fame. Since the BCA is the BC of "America" I have no problem with them expressing a preference for games that are more popular in the United States of A. That includes 3 cushion but if they have to give consideration to the snooker players I hope they add a separate category.

I think Allison is playing "pool" as well as ever and don't see any reason to honor her with HOF induction while she is still at the top of her game. Unfortunately there isn't any competition of any consequence in anything except nine ball among the women. Maybe there should be a moratorium on any further female inductees until they show their skills in other disciplines. After all, many of the great male pool players were pretty good at 3 cushion also.

The female snooker players are over here because they cannot play at the level of the men and they see easy money over here in nine ball. It's just like any other business. Once enough people see the easy money there is no more easy money and they all starve.

You want the BCA to give Allison credit for her snooker accomplishments? They will have to elect a couple dozen male snooker players also. I don't think they are going in that direction. There must be a snooker hall of fame somewhere.

I'm certainly not going to say anything in support of Loree Jon since I don't know that much about her record. I do know Allison had a few years of dominating women's nine ball and now there seems to be a bit more parity among the top women. I think the jury is still out on how great she is or will be. I'd like to see a little more variety in what the women play. Let's see them enter Derby City. That's something I think Karen might do but Allison got all the early big money and she is probably set for life. She probably doesn't care about showing she's the best (and she probably is).
Ken in CT

Alfie
05-10-2002, 03:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Eric.:</font><hr> Actually, I think Loree Jon is gonna be 37 this year. <hr></blockquote>
Balukas was in her twenties.

From
http://www.bca-pool.com/industry/hof/hof.shtml

"The purpose of the Hall of Fame is to honor outstanding people who, through their competitive skills and Dedication, have enriched our sport and industry.

"Two categories have been established in BCA's Hall of Fame. The Greatest Players category shall be reserved for outstanding players who have been active in national or international competition for at least 20 years and have won at least one national or international championship. At least one candidate from this category will be nominated annually. The Meritorious Service category shall be reserved for those who have made lasting, memorable and important contributions to billiards, even though they may not have distinguished themselves as competitors."

Rod
05-10-2002, 04:31 PM
Quote Fran
Do you think Loree Jon would ever be inducted into a Hall of Fame in Great Britian?"

No not in the next 100 years or so. I feel the same as most here, for the same reasons. Loree Jon is very worthy to be elected to the HOF. Without her and many significant others, there might not have been a WPBA. Without that Allison would never have won the titles here to give her that status so early life. Allison will be elected, its just a question of time.

Fran, speaking of time, Annika Sorenstam of the LPGA tour did qualified for the HOF, March of 2000. She also qualifies for the World Golf HOF. The only thing that keeps Annika out is her age. Very impressive. However it remains to be seen if Annika will be inducted the first year.

Rip
05-10-2002, 04:57 PM
Thank you Chris in NC! You are right that it's been dull here lately. There was actually a guy that printed out his daily schedule (honey dew list)and posted it here. Dull for sure!
Your opinion regarding LJJ HOF entry makes sense. I'm not saying any "shady back room" activity exists with the selection process for this prestigious award but after all this IS pool ya' know. LJJ will certainly be one of the prettiest ever inducted. Rip~~oh, it's 4.00pm, time to take the kids to...fix a snack for...let the dog out--(sorry folks but I couldn't resist that outburst)! 10-9-8-7-6-5- counting the seconds before the ranting and raving begins LOL!

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris in NC:</font><hr> Ken, a point of contention as far as your lack of longevity claim regarding Ms. Fisher's career, Allison won her first World snooker title in 1985 (at the age of 16) and is the current World 9-Ball Champion. That's a 17+ year span of total dominance in two totally different disciplines. As for what she's given back to the game, I don't wish to get in to that, but Allison has given back much as well. For instance, she has an upcoming charity benefit in PA (related to the 9/ll disaster) in which she waved her normal appearance fee.

Loree Jon won her first major title (14.1 U.S. Open) in 1981 and her last major title (at least to date) in 1993 (World 9-Ball title) at the tender age of 27. That's not much longevity IMO - and for most of that time she was considered the second best player behind Jean.
Please, I hope none of you get too bent out of shape by this thread. The topics have just been awfully dull on the board IMO for a while, so I thought I'd add a little stimulation / controversy to see if all of you are still here! - Chris in NC <hr></blockquote>

Ken
05-10-2002, 08:33 PM
Fran, It's a little unfair to ask if Loree Jon might be inducted into a Hall of Fame in Great Britain. I don't think Loree Jon went over there and dominated women's pool for several years as Allison has over here. I still think there's plenty of time for Allison and maybe on the strength of her present record she should get in. Perhaps the fear is that others may begin to shine and Allison will miss her chance.

I'm particularily impressed with Jean since she supposedly was so good that the men had to bar her from competing with them. That is a legendary figure in pool history. Now the men are standing in line to play the women. Times have changed.
Ken in CT

05-10-2002, 10:07 PM
Alfie, thanks for answering my original question. The minimum 20 year requirement of national / international competition is possibly the only reason why Allison has not qualified for HOF consideration as of yet - but should become eligible within the next year or two.

The minimum 40 years of age rule was apparently dropped last year - as it had been a previous requirement for a number of years since Sigel was elected in 1989 at the age of 36 - the last player under 40 to be elected.

As far as Fran's reasoning of why AF is not yet in the HOF is similar to saying why LJJ isn't in the British HOF (if there even is one) is ludicrous. I don't believe LJJ has moved to England and dominated world and national snooker tournament titles for the last 7 years - as Allison has done over here in pool.

The BCA HOF has always historically recognized both pocket billiard players and 3-C / carom billiard players, but at least to this point to my knowledge has failed to induct any snooker players among it's members. Strangely enough however, complete snooker rules and snooker tournament results / records has always been included in the annual BCA Rules &amp; Record Book.

If the omission of snooker players from BCA HOF is a hardfast written rule, I would have to question as to why? Is snooker not considered a cuesport - perhaps the very hardest of them all, or is it because it's not an American game? If so, perhaps Allison will have to pay a few more dues and win a few more pool world and national titles before she is rightfully recognized in the BCA HOF. - Chris in NC

Alfie
05-11-2002, 12:58 AM
Quote Chris in NC-- "Alf, thanks for answering my original question. The minimum 20 year requirement of national / international competition is possibly the only reason why Allison has not qualified for HOF consideration as of yet - but should become eligible within the next year or two."

Alf-- Even if Allison had her 20 years in, I still wouldn't be surprised if she was passed over. After the criteria are met it's all popularity, politics, and timing. As with any of these kind of deals.

Quote Chris in NC-- "The minimum 40 years of age rule was apparently dropped last year - as it had been a previous requirement for a number of years since Sigel was elected in 1989 at the age of 36 - the last player under 40 to be elected."

Alf-- I'm glad they kept some type of minimum years requirement. Don't want no teenagers in the HOF.

Quote Chris in NC-- "As far as Fran's reasoning of why AF is not yet in the HOF is similar to saying why LJJ isn't in the British HOF (if there even is one) is ludicrous. I don't believe LJJ has moved to England and dominated world and national snooker tournament titles for the last 7 years - as Allison has done over here in pool."

Alf-- Surely Frances' point was merely misconveyed.

Quote Chris in NC-- "The BCA HOF has always historically recognized both pocket billiard players and 3-C / carom billiard players, but at least to this point to my knowledge has failed to induct any snooker players among it's members. Strangely enough however, complete snooker rules and snooker tournament results / records has always been included in the annual BCA Rules &amp; Record Book.

"If the omission of snooker players from BCA HOF is a hardfast written rule, I would have to question as to why? Is snooker not considered a cuesport - perhaps the very hardest of them all, or is it because it's not an American game?"

Alf-- That's got to be a big part of it.

Ceulemans is in. I can see a snooker inductee in the future. He (she) similarly would have to have been a super-heavyweight.

Quote Chris in NC-- "If so, perhaps Allison will have to pay a few more dues and win a few more pool world and national titles before she is rightfully recognized in the BCA HOF."

Alf-- Allison is in. It's just a matter of when.

IMO

05-11-2002, 02:04 AM
You're right about the Great Britian comment. I reread Chris' post and interpreted it differently the second time. The first time I read it I thought he was including Allison's snooker credentials as part of the reason why she should have been inducted before Loree Jon.

I don't think there's any question that Allison has already accomplished enough to warrent her induction into the HOF. However, Loree Jon's reign was over 10 years ago. So was Buddy Hall's, and they're both recent inductees. How about Cicero Murphy, who's accomplishments were as far back as the 60's and 70's? It only took 25 years for his induction to take place. Allison will get in. I think it just depends on how many there are on the list ahead of her, still waiting.

Fran

Harold Acosta
05-11-2002, 08:38 AM
This requirement (40 yrs old) was eliminated last year with Earl Strickland's nomination.

Scott Lee
05-11-2002, 01:39 PM
...and let's not forget...a great mom, very spiritual, and a TOTAL HOTTIE still!!! I've been in love with LJJ since she was LJO, so many years ago...but Sammy beat me to her! LOL

Scott Lee

05-11-2002, 02:49 PM
I couldn't agree with you more and I couldn't have stated it any better. Allison is head and shoulders above LJJ.

05-11-2002, 02:54 PM
Ceulemans is the only non American. If it truly is a BILLIARD Hall of Fame where are all the snooker greats? Not that they would care if the BCA recognised them or not.