View Full Version : BCA/ACS - who's winning?

08-11-2004, 11:16 AM
As you know, BCA sold their league operations to Mark Griffin and it is now operated as a "for profit" league operation. Then the former BCA league folks (John Lewis), suddenly without a job, started ACS as a "non-profit" league operation.

So who is winning the BCA (http://bcapoolleague.com/)/ACS (http://www.americancuesports.org) war?

Certainly it's not the amateur league player. According to Mitch Laurence when watching the 2004 semis and finals on TV, there were something like 9000 amateurs at last year's BCA event in Vegas. Now the amateurs are being forced to split into two organizations. The BCA is holding their nationals in Vegas in May, while the ACS is holding their nationals in Reno a few weeks before.

It even affects us here in the forums because we don't all have the same opportunity to meet others of us at "the nationals" any more. When it was just BCA, we could collectively talk about the BCA tournament in Vegas, but now some of us will be BCA and some of us will be ACS and whatever nationals we attend, if any, will be significantly reduced in size, I'm guessing. (Yes, I know I'm ignoring VNEA and APA for now...)

One of our local BCA leagues has switched to ACS, and the other is staying BCA. I guess I should be thankful that at least I'm fortunate to live in a city where I have a choice, but which should I choose?

And what about dual sanctioning? Perhaps the "solution" is simply going to be that amateur players will have to pay twice now and will play in dual sanctioned leagues and get their choice of Vegas, Reno or both? Most players I know work for a living, so can't take off that much vacation...

Of course, my personal concern is that I was going to switch leagues (and probably make a few enemies in the process) just in order to play in the same league as Spiderman in order to play scotch doubles with him next year in Vegas. Well, his league is now ACS, not BCA. The league I was leaving is now BCA with some divisions being dual sanctioned. My current team captain is taking the team to VNEA.

I don't know what to do!

08-11-2004, 11:29 AM
I played APA last year and have since gotten away from that league, I believe I am going to start VNEA this session. We dont have BCA leagues in our area so I dont know anything about that league or how they are ran. I think it gets hard at some point to do what you want versus what you feel should be done. You get used to playing with a certain team in a league and can feel like you are letting them down if you switch. But you have to remember why you play league, its to have fun and be with people you want to be with.

For some people they play league to get to higher level and go to vegas (or where ever) for others its just about getting out one or two nights a week. Just decide why it is you play and do what ever it is that will get you there. If one of your main joys from league is getting to play with Spiderman then I think you would have to make what ever switch you need to make that happen.

On a side note, with all of the different leagues out there, I think it would be cool if there was a tournament that put the champions from each league against each other. If not on a national level at least on a local level. I know it would be hard do to different handicaping systems, but I think it could make for some real good matches.

08-11-2004, 11:31 AM
It seems to early to tell.
In June I joined a BCA 9-ball league only to
find out they were switching to ACS.
So now I play ACS in one town and BCA in another.
I have yet to see a real difference between the two.
ACS is having a regional 9-ball tournament in Oct which
I hope to be attending. Maybe I will get a better idea
on how the ACS league is doing after that.

BTW, Anybody going to Lincoln City, OR in OCT for ACS?

08-11-2004, 11:44 AM
Well, for what its worth, I want to try the ACS if I can, because from what I heard, they are going to try and make it where players of different levels can compete at Vegas, not just Open and Masters. I mean, to me its already hard enough to play against some of the average players in the BCA leauges because they are sooo good! Forget about going to Vegas and trying to win a little something! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Also, I heard that they are (in certain areas i think...) sanctioning some 14.1 leagues! JOY! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif If I could play in a 9-ball and 14.1 leaugue in my area, I'd probably cry tears of joy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif I'm so sick of 8-ball I could just kirk-out! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

08-11-2004, 12:58 PM

08-11-2004, 01:26 PM
I wish a 14.1 league would be started in my area, but I dont see that happening any time soon.

08-11-2004, 01:28 PM
IMO the ACS has a lot to prove.
The BCA already has exisiting contracts with Vegas and is offering more $ and more tournaments.
The ACS is full of promises and have yet to prove any of them. The ACS also retracted the ban on dual sanctioning when they got so much negative feedback from the BCA players that wanted to stay BCA and also try the ACS group.

There were a lot of hard feelings in these changes. BCA regional reps took the BCA monies and transferred them to the NEW ACS org without a member meeting to approve the change.

The Non-Profit versus For Profit argument is stupid. Both have decision making processes that are final. As for Olympic considerations. The ACS is full of itself. The Olympics has many requirements to fulfill prior to any consideration. One to be a Non Profit orgainization. The others include; holding National tournaments open to all players; being the national recognized ruling body; Player representation on the board of directors (at least 10%); having a standard set of rules

So far, the Non-profit requirement is the only one met by the ACS.

IMO, the ACS is a rouge outfit, trying to make money, not support the players or the game.

08-11-2004, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> I wish a 14.1 league would be started in my area, but I dont see that happening any time soon. <hr /></blockquote>

You could start one. Even if you only have 6 or 8 players you could grow it from there.

Use handicaps if necessary to get people to play.

08-11-2004, 01:36 PM
You are correct about one thing. The players are the big losers in this whole thing. The BCA pretty much has said the sale could have been handled a little differently, but that is water under the bridge. I believe Mark Griffin is going to do a good job with the new BCA league, taking what he bought and making it even better. I don't know from first hand experience, but I have heard several people say they feel that the ACS is doing some things that appear to be not quite ethical at the very least.

Since all we have around here is APA, we don't have a choice to make. I think if I were in your position, I would try to play in both for a while. Players who do both are going to figure out very quickly which organization is doing a better job for the players. That is the one that is going to succeed.

For the short term, players will suffer because of the split. In the long run, the group that meets the needs of the players is going to grow.

That probably doesn't help much, but I think it's all going to work itself out in the end.

Good luck in whichever decision you make.

08-11-2004, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
You could start one. Even if you only have 6 or 8 players you could grow it from there.

Use handicaps if necessary to get people to play. <hr /></blockquote>

I have even considered that, but one major problem I would have is where to play. Our local room that has 9' tables only has a couple of tables that are decent enough to play on.

08-11-2004, 03:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I don't know what to do!

<hr /></blockquote>


Later, Pel /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

08-11-2004, 04:11 PM
Hey Chris...where do you play out of? I will be attending the ACS tourney in Lincoln City at the end of Oct. Bet your in the same league as me out of Oscars? I play on Steve Petersons team. See ya tonight. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
08-12-2004, 02:02 AM
Hi SPetty,

I don't think John Lewis started the ACS but more like he was out of a job and was offered a position. The names or record of players info that was concidered to us as private information was really public and whether or not the records were messed up or taken is a good question but I don't care about that part. Either way, I was under the impression that the ACS was formed buy a few league operators.

The differences so far are the locations of the national tournaments. Canada is also allowed to compete in the ACS as there's many from there too that have switched over.

Reno might not be as glamorous as Vegas but it's an alternative. I'm interested in the pay out structure of both leagues. Bottom line both national events are tough to make money at anyway unless, you place high in it. It's more a vacation as I see it than anything.

Making enemies? The only enemies that I can see is not between the players but between the two main leagues. The players shouldn't even be involved with what's between them, unless it effects our pay outs.

I say, go with who you like to. Myself I would like to qualify for both but, it really doesn't matter if I did in either. I know anyone can pay a small fee and play the national singles unless you like the team thing then, you will have to choose. Double money? Just sanction fees is all.

Your choice would to think of where you want to vacation.



08-12-2004, 08:28 PM
The person who is going to run Canada has already made a living for years out of BCA and is looking to make more from ACS.The idea that they are nonprofit or for the playersis a total hoax.

08-12-2004, 10:59 PM
Our league put it to a vote here in Houston. We will be playing with the BCA still. One thing is they are supposed to bring in Diamond tables either this year, or next (not sure which). Since our league plays on 8 footers, the loss of the mud ball on the Balley tables will be great. Of the 80ish people that were in attendance for the vote, about a hand full voted to leave the BCA.
Our team is mainly composed of players that are 40-50 with an alternate that is 75 years old. We play the league simply to qualify for Vegas. Don't get me wrong, we are very competitive, but also we play in a VERY strong league, so we are realistic that probably the best we will ever place is somewhere between 3rd and 6th place (there are 12-14 teams).
Three of our players own pool tables, so every Monday we get together and play. Not only are we a team, but we are also good friends. We are not silly enough to ever think that we could get into the "Big Money" in Vegas (although we ususally do get into the money). We compete hard, and after we are eliminated, we have a heck of a good time.
For us it came down to "Vegas or Reno...Balley or Diamond tables".
I could really care less about the politics. We can always vote to change next year if this year is a wash out with BCA, but somehow I really doubt it.

Chris Cass
08-13-2004, 12:19 AM
I hear ya Almer,

Non-profit is all about what you show at the end of the yrs to the IRS. They still have to pay people' salaries, computers and everything down to the coffee machine. The only one who really makes are the people owning the tables.

This I believe is between Valley' the old tradition and the new guy on the block, Diamonds. They have to sell us because without the players, the tables mean nothing. They give us what we want to hear and if we like it? We go with it.

The league operators are in charge of us and speak for us. That doesn't mean they're not out to make a living or don't speak entirely for us. We control them too. We spend our money in these establishments and we do it enough for them to want to get involved in running something like a league. No different than darts.

What we players want is the one who gives more than the other back to us. Even if it's small? That seems to be the one out for the players as you say. The differences in the tables is another story all togather. imho

IMHO Diamond is trying to take the bar out of the player. Valley, is trying to keep the player in the bar. LOL I welcome the change and as a player I feel that there should be changes. I'm excited that pool is beginning to grow once more.

I'm against the profiteers for sure but your going to have that. I really feel sorry for the APA players. From what I hear their not getting what they should be. I'm not 100% knowledgable in what goes on in the APA but from what I heard is that. They play the entire league season and take the money and send only one team? That to me sounds shady. They could posibly send who they want and then the sandbagging mess? This just makes me see that there's worse things that could be going on and most likely are. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Been around awhile and doesn't buy everything. Kind or reminds me of the old, political arena. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



08-13-2004, 06:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> ...I really feel sorry for the APA players. From what I hear their not getting what they should be. I'm not 100% knowledgable in what goes on in the APA but from what I heard is that. They play the entire league season and take the money and send only one team? ...<hr /></blockquote>

Our local league sends 3 open teams and 2 ladies teams to Vegas. Out of about 200 open and about 48 ladies teams.

Chris Cass
08-13-2004, 08:15 AM

Does that seem fair? I'm glad I heard wrong but concidering the source I understand.



08-13-2004, 08:56 PM
In the league i play in we sent 5 of 13 master teams and one team won a draw for another trip.We are dual sanctioned,VNEA andBCA.I didn;t hear any complaints and i hear they are doing the same thing this year.I think the new league will have a hard time to compete with them.

08-13-2004, 09:08 PM
You know it's very intresting that you have brought this up. I am a new poolhall owner, and I tell you what. I am about ready to scratch them all. Valley is the worst of all of them because they not only charge $50 a team, they require you to only have consinment tables so you make .50 on each game. And you have to have at least 4 tables for them. I for one do NOT like to be dictated to so therefore I am going to eliminate them from my pool hall. I will support the other 3 leagues as long as they let people play the game and not try to put me out of business. And oh by the way, I am getting heat for this from thier league players, but I have quelled it by giving some free table time. Customers always right. And I have started our own straight pool league and surprising enough it's mostly the kids teams that are playing it. 8 ball seems to rule here with 9 right behind it.

08-14-2004, 12:38 PM
Where i live it is pretty common to charge a bar owner $200.00 per team.Some owners charge $4.50 for a beer on a weeknight to league players,which makes for a good profit on a normal quiet night.Mostly we are the only patrons in the place so it is a tradeoff.