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Sid_Vicious
08-11-2004, 08:57 PM
I am dealing with a problem I need help with. I am giving someone the basic, "smart" fundamentals of run selection in 8-ball to a generally novice player. Thing I have as a problem is that this person has a following of friends and family who continue to promote "whacking at hail mary" shots, combos and various other mistakes common to ex and current bar players. Is there much hope or good advice as to what to do with its on-going problem???sid

stickman
08-11-2004, 09:28 PM
This old saying sounds appropriate: "You can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink." If the student wants to follow the advice of friends and family against your advice, you will probably have minimal luck teaching him. I'm no instructor, but tried to help a friend today. He was complaining that he was having a problem with knocking the cueball off the table on the break. I asked him if he was raising the butt up on the break. He told me to just shoot. I didn't say another thing. He is a better shooter than me, but I watched him and saw what he was doing wrong. When he strokes his cue for the break the butt comes up, and comes back about level at impact. When he puts extra effort into the break, the butt doesn't drop back down to level. That's when it flies off the table. I could help him, but he wasn't interested in my help. I could use the ball in hand anyway. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ralph S.
08-11-2004, 10:19 PM
Hey Sid, this may help. Have your student play one night with the swinging for the fences approach. Then have them play the next night with the appropriate approach. Each night they should keep track of the wins and losses and compare the two. This may help as they will eventually like that they will win more in the long run with the right approach verses the hail mary approach.

Scott Lee
08-11-2004, 10:56 PM
sid...It sounds to me like you need to spend more time with this student on the timing and grip of his final stroke through the cueball. Establishing a clear pre-shot routine is essential in creating a smooth, deliberate, repeatable stroke...you know...set, pause, finish! Clean that up, and it will be easier to teach them pattern play.

Scott Lee

Chris Cass
08-12-2004, 12:14 AM
Hi Sid,

Tell your student to keep a written record of when he or she plays these slam bamm shots with no idea of what'll happen and record how many times he makes a ball and has another shot or misses and it costs them. I bet he'll wise up quick. When he see it in print.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
08-12-2004, 12:16 AM
Hey wait a minute! I just said the same thing. Oh, it's you Ralph. About time you come back to work. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~didn't read the responses. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

SUPERSTAR
08-12-2004, 01:06 AM
I am wondering....ARE YOU GETTING PAID? Or are you being generous.
I happen to give lessons...and before i even start...i request that the student please not bother with the FREE...or UNDERCUTTING advice from others. I stress that if they do stuff that conflicts with what i'm trying to teach them...i will just stop the lessons...and they can fend for themselves.

People tend to listen to advice when they pay for it. If it's free, they most likely will ask everyone for their opinion...and compare notes...and do the trial and error thing. They won't learn till it costs them time and time again.

SUPERSTAR

Vagabond
08-12-2004, 04:25 AM
Howdy Sid,
If the kid chooses to ignore u and is paying more attention to other people`s advise,there is nothing u can do unless u feel that u are a SAVIER of the world.Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Leviathan
08-12-2004, 06:49 AM
Hi, Sid. A couple of thoughts.

First, Larry Schwartz' book The 8-Ball Handbook for Winners is good on pattern selection. Maybe your student would be receptive to the authority of published advice.

Second, I wonder whether your student's hit-and-hope play could be a symptom of poor cueball control. Pattern play and smart shot selection may not have much relevance if your student is always out of position. Would it help to give him or her some additional work on the basics of cb control?

Good luck,
AS

Sid_Vicious
08-12-2004, 07:19 AM
I've actually made a hit with them with Target Pool, and feel that there's a basic understanding when there's a time to duck on a shot. The thing is that I spend maybe 2 hours a week with them and the real play time they get is with bar players basically, so the competitive education is overweighted with people wanting to tout the "go for the glory" shots. It simply does not register with certain groups of people why you would ever leave a hanging ball in a hole, just doesn't register that the ball is a big help being there.

The book you suggested is a good idea. Reading is one thing I've been happy to see as well accepted, now if I can only keep "more cooks outta my kitchen!" sid

Leviathan
08-12-2004, 08:23 AM
Ah, target pool--you're way ahead of me, Sid!

AS

woody_968
08-12-2004, 09:02 AM
Sid, you mention that much of his time is with bar players. Keep in mind that he may be taking in what you are saying, just not using it in these cituations. When playing with friends for fun he may feel it is better to free wheel so that he is still just one of the guys. But come time for tournaments or money games he may very well follow what you are showing him.

Bob_Jewett
08-12-2004, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I am dealing with a problem I need help with. I am giving someone the basic, "smart" fundamentals of run selection in 8-ball to a generally novice player. Thing I have as a problem is that this person has a following of friends and family who continue to promote "whacking at hail mary" shots, combos and various other mistakes common to ex and current bar players. Is there much hope or good advice as to what to do with its on-going problem???sid <hr /></blockquote>

If he wins in his usual playing situation with the circus shots, even if he misses most of them, he will have no motivation to change, and you will just be an irritant. Try getting him into more serious competition where a few stupid moves will lose the game.

Popcorn
08-12-2004, 12:25 PM
Just do the best you can and maybe some of it will stick. I used to play the guitar and liked to play by ear. My teacher actually would get angry when he heard me fooling around. I just quit him, I didn't like the structured lessons anyway. I play pretty good and enjoy it but I had no interest in taking it seriously. I am sure the teacher was right and had the best intentions , but I just wanted to have a little fun not be a professional. That is what you will probably run into giving lessons and so be it, just do the best you can. I would not worry about it too much.

Sid_Vicious
08-12-2004, 01:47 PM
Popcorn and woody have good points to make,,,can't stress a point too much and lose the fun and interest. The dilemma has seemingly gotten better on it's own since I posted, DOH! You are right though, even I goof around with my style with lesser pool talented crowds than I should, but it fits the fun factor at the time. Scott's suggestions have been implemented and is ongoing still, stroke and grip mechanics drills that is. All in all I maybe just panicked a little when I found the wingo shots creeping in and my advice ignored, but y'all are right, it was a loose playing group AND on a giant beer-storm evening, so what the heck.

Thanks everyone...sid

TheFish
08-12-2004, 09:39 PM
Umm..wouldnt it be just easier to take him to a tourney and let him see for himself who he wants to be
the bonehead basher
or mr finesse.

or just show him a tape of all the good guys.its quite apparent who looks cool and who looks retarded at those tourneys.

TheFish a former and semi-current retard bonehead basher.

Ralph S.
08-12-2004, 10:48 PM
LMAO Cassman. Its nice to know I have a back-up when I call off sick from work. LOL. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif