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shoutout33
08-19-2004, 11:19 AM
I just thought about something. Pocket Billiards (pool) is one of those games that anyone can become good at, reguardless of age or sex. So I was thinking, has there ever been a open tourney where both men and women competed on the same level?

I mean think about it. I'm sure the "Dutchess of Doom" could take on "Earl the Pearl" any day of the week. When I played APA and BCA, the women were good, I mean really good. I never took any game for granted...man or woman. (Ok, mabey if they were a two, then I got cocky... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

I mean to me, it'd be really cool if there was some type of annual open tourney for all men and women, ametures and pros alike, to see who'd win. Besides, a lot of people like to watch the women play more so than the men. Go figure. Me personally, I got a chance to see Vivian Villareal (sp), Karen Corr, Allison Fisher, and Jennifer Chen in person. These ladies are no joke! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif So guys and gals, what do you think? Or has this been done already? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
08-19-2004, 11:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote shoutout33:</font><hr> ... has this been done already? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>


yep /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

the general consensus seems to be that since there are more young men then women playing pool the talent pool is deeper and broader so therefore the men tend to be better.

catscradle
08-19-2004, 11:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote shoutout33:</font><hr> ... So guys and gals, what do you think? Or has this been done already? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

This has been done several times on several forums, but nobody seems to get tired of the subject and nobody ever changes their opinion on this topic . But here's mine anyhow.

Men are better than women at this time without question. The best women are very close to the best men, but it falls off steeply after that. IMO there is a physiological reason for this in terms of hand/eye coordination. Just as I can NEVER be as good as Efren (or Alison for that matter), the average woman can never be as good the average man. I am of course strictly restricting that comparison to pool and other athletic events. Also at any given time in history a woman may arise that is better than the best man, but I'm comparing averages not the best. I could be 100% wrong and it is all nurture rather than nature, however, my opionion is that nature plays a small but significant part.

Fred Agnir
08-19-2004, 11:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote shoutout33:</font><hr> I just thought about something. Pocket Billiards (pool) is one of those games that anyone can become good at, reguardless of age or sex. So I was thinking, has there ever been a open tourney where both men and women competed on the same level? <hr /></blockquote> There is always that opportunity.


[ QUOTE ]
I mean to me, it'd be really cool if there was some type of annual open tourney for all men and women, ametures and pros alike, to see who'd win. <hr /></blockquote>

It happens. It's not as close as you think.

[ QUOTE ]
So guys and gals, what do you think? Or has this been done already? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>The discussion of men vs. women comes up every other month. You've added to the statistic.

As far as comparable population statistics, poker is a good comparison. Since poker is a much more mental game than pool ever will be, the whole "not gender specific" argument should hold true. And it does. The population of top women poker players is probably comparable to the women population overall that play poker. The top women do in fact compare heads up to the women. Out of 32 open events at the World Championships at Binions this year three were won by women.

Does pool truly compare? No. It has never happened that a woman won a major pool event. Even if the greatest female player of all time (Jean Balukas) was one of the particants.

Fred

shoutout33
08-19-2004, 12:10 PM
Ok, mabey I am adding to the stats on this one, but still, the idea of the game is to put the ball in the pocket, or keep your opponent from doing it (I know it's more than that but bear with me here...). So what your saying is that a guy can control the cue ball better than a gal?

So let me get this straight, you all are saying that if the playing field is level, a women couldn't compete on the same level as a man? Ok, ok, ok, I guess why I'm trying to fight this is because it's not like we're competing in golf, basketball, football, or anything that a man strength would be a major factor. I mean guys, were talking about cue ball control, making balls, getting position, and being consistent with all of them. How does this make us men any better? (Fellas I'm really not trying to play devil's advocate here, it's just happening ok?)

Fred Agnir
08-19-2004, 12:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote shoutout33:</font><hr> How does this make us men any better? (Fellas I'm really not trying to play devil's advocate here, it's just happening ok?) <hr /></blockquote>You're asking a loaded question. I'll just throw out that the game of pool is more physically demanding than you may be giving it credit. Compare it to chess or poker, two games that are male dominated but clearly more mental than pool. Until someone figures out how to hit balls into holes without using any physical skills, then the game is mostly a physical endeavor that requires physical mastery.

It would be short-sighted to consider brute strength as the primary category of physical skill in question. Clearly, brute strength is not the issue. Muscle coordination, muscle memory, timing, macro adjustments, micro adjustments... these are all physical attributes.

Fred &lt;~~~ and then there's the power shots, the breasts, the center of balance...

Fred

woody_968
08-19-2004, 12:27 PM
How does it make us better? I dont know, but it does. Speaking of the top levels anyway. Locally one of the people I enjoy playing the most, and that makes me play the hardest, happens to be female. She plays very well, and took a shot at trying to get on the womens tour at one point.

One of the things many people say hold them back at competing with the men is the break.

ChrisW
08-19-2004, 12:32 PM
Are woman not allowed to enter open tournaments?

I thought (in Pool) that open was open.
There is no mens tour, so what stops women from entering?


Chris

Wally_in_Cincy
08-19-2004, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ChrisW:</font><hr> Are woman not allowed to enter open tournaments?

I thought (in Pool) that open was open.
There is no mens tour, so what stops women from entering?
<hr /></blockquote>

The promoter.

The US Open is for men only. So is the WPC. The regional tours (Viking, Joss) are open to all. Don't know about the UPA.

9 Ball Girl
08-19-2004, 12:45 PM
This is my opinion:

I've seen both the women play in person and I've seen the men play in person. The men are better. Yes, there are some women pros who will give the men pros a good game, but the men are just better. I actually prefer watching them play over the women, I find the men playing more strategic and aggresive and I pick things up from watching them play. I even prefer playing against men than women. Don't know why that is but it's true, IMO, of anything else where we as women are better at certain things because we're women and vice versa.

But, if there were some sort of open tourney for both sexes, I'm sure that there will be a lot of interesting matchups and great play, but I have to say that the men come out on top on this one. JMO

SPetty
08-19-2004, 12:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote ChrisW:</font><hr> Are woman not allowed to enter open tournaments?<hr /></blockquote>The US Open is for men only.

Don't know about the UPA.<hr /></blockquote>They should call it a "Men's Only" tournament. Open should mean "Open". I was shocked when I heard that women were excluded from playing in the US Open.

I've heard "through the grapevine" that the UPA is men's only organization as well.

ChrisW, most local Open tournaments are open to all players. The "Open" tourneys that don't allow girls to play are just ascared that the girls might do well and make the boys look bad. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Bob_Jewett
08-19-2004, 12:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote shoutout33:</font><hr>Or has this been done already? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>
There have been many tournaments in which both men and women competed on equal terms. For background, you may want to find out about the Katsura sisters. More recently, Jean Balukas played in men's tournaments and beat quite a few champions, although I think she never won a tour stop. She was playing at the time that Accu-stats was keeping paper statistics on tournament performances, so it's easy to compare how well she played against the other players (to the extent that you think such statistics are valid).

I saw her play in both divisions of the 1980 World 14.1 tournament. She won the women's division, and finished tied for 17th (I think) in the open division. One of the men she beat in that tournament was former world champion Cisero Murphy.

I vaguely recall that some time in the 80's the men decided not to let her enter any more tournaments.

In 1996, there was a men's/women's playoff in a made-for-ESPN event, which is described in a Usenet posting (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=jewettEKFqu0.Iyw%40netcom.com) from that time. C.J. Wiley played Vivian Villarreal in the final.

Is Karen Corr still playing the the Northeast events?

Tom_In_Cincy
08-19-2004, 12:57 PM
I just LOVE the way 9BallGirl Thinks... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

All the "Open" regional tournaments in this area of the country (west coast) are 'open' to any player that has the entry fee.

No gender bias that I am aware of.

Lots of really good female players have entered the 'open' tournaments here at Hard Times Billiards in Sacramento.

Men vrs. Women... blah.. it's player versus player. That is all that matters.

9 Ball Girl
08-19-2004, 01:06 PM
I think that with the UPA, if you're a female that wins a qualifier for a UPA based event, you can play. For example with the Big Apple tourney, I was surprised to see Brenda Heras play in the qualifier and I questioned it and was told that if it's through a qualifier, then you're good to go. Being myself a member, I can play too from what I was told. Hmmm. I'm going to have to look further into that.

woody_968
08-19-2004, 01:15 PM
I like to see tourneys open to men and women, but I hate it when they say the women get 2 or on the wire or what ever, if its a no handicap tournament there shouldnt be any handicap for anyone.

sidepocketsam
08-19-2004, 02:04 PM
As of now, the women aren't as good as the men. But in this case I don't think the differences are caused by any physical aspect. I believe it's caused by competition. I believe that woman and girls have less competition to play as they're growing up and when they finally get good enough to turn pro, they naturally are going to play in the female tournaments.

Over time, as the women's tour becomes more competitive and more girls take up the game as youths, I think the gap between women and men will close. Look at the history of most professional sports and you'll see that there seems to be huge gaps between the best and the next level in the beginning years of those sports. As time passes, sport gets more popular, there is much more volume of quality and less domination. You don't seem to find a Karen and Allison type of domination on the men's circuit and that's because men have been at it longer and the game they play has gotten better as has the competition.

Golf is a good example, while we have Tiger now, he hasn't won a major in over 2 years and there seems to be new names popping up on the winners list every week. As you go backwards in history, you'll find more domination as you will find in any other sport.

My point is that if you take two professional organizations and have one with a small amout of dominators and one that seems to spread out the glory, the one that spreads out the glory is much more advanced because of it's longer history.

Barbara
08-19-2004, 04:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> Being myself a member, I can play too from what I was told.<hr /></blockquote>

Why would you want to be a member of the UPA? Do you play in their events?

Barbara

ras314
08-19-2004, 04:43 PM
"Fred &lt;~~~ and then there's the power shots, the breasts, the center of balance..."

Hahaha...We have a local gal that is the td for 3 bar tournaments a week. Has long blond hair that is all over the table everytime she shoots, a little on the heavy side so center of balance is probably ok. Tells me she needs a handicap because "they" get in the way. After closely watching her shoot I decided she's right. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Going to spot her the 8 from now on.

9 Ball Girl
08-19-2004, 05:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>Why would you want to be a member of the UPA?<hr /></blockquote><font color="blue">Why not? Some of my friends are on the Executive and Representative board and I joined to support them back when they first started out.</font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>Do you play in their events?<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">I wish! I'm not a touring Pro member, but I'm a standard member. When I first joined, I was told that the first female (I was supposedly the 2nd) joined in as a touring Pro and played in 1 or 2 of their events. I forgot her name though.</font color>

Barbara
08-19-2004, 06:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr>Why not? Some of my friends are on the Executive and Representative board and I joined to support them back when they first started out.</font color>[/b]

Do you play in their events?<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">I wish! I'm not a touring Pro member, but I'm a standard member. When I first joined, I was told that the first female (I was supposedly the 2nd) joined in as a touring Pro and played in 1 or 2 of their events. I forgot her name though.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Then why don't you become a sponsor member instead of putting your dollars into someone's pocket's immediately? Membership money is used with disregard to the member and usually to the immediate need of who's running things or the TD. What I mean is, it's a one-time usage deal.

I've had women call me and asked me to sign up a membership. I tell them this is not necessary until they want to play in an event because the membership a a 12-month thing. Why would someone sign up and not play??

Barbara

Rich R.
08-20-2004, 04:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> The US Open is for men only. <hr /></blockquote>
Wally, I don't believe the U.S. Open is "for men only". I could be wrong, but I believe the Open is truly an Open tournament. If you pay the entry, you play. Period.

It seems to me, the WPBA in really not interested in having their top members play in the U.S. Open, and they conveniently schedule one of their tournaments at the same time, every year. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

bluewolf
08-20-2004, 06:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sidepocketsam:</font><hr> As of now, the women aren't as good as the men. But in this case I don't think the differences are caused by any physical aspect. I believe it's caused by competition. I believe that woman and girls have less competition to play as they're growing up and when they finally get good enough to turn pro, they naturally are going to play in the female tournaments.

Over time, as the women's tour becomes more competitive and more girls take up the game as youths, I think the gap between women and men will close.

My point is that if you take two professional organizations and have one with a small amout of dominators and one that seems to spread out the glory, the one that spreads out the glory is much more advanced because of it's longer history. <hr /></blockquote>

I think that this is true about men being brought up in general more to compete. I did not really compete until I was about 19 and that was in tennis. I was competitive in rough and tumble with the guys as a kid, but not the same thing as competing in a sport. Things have changed some, girls now have more sports to compete in early on, but when I grew up, there was almost nothing.

I also do not think that strength is as much of an issue as stamina. I think that to get through a long tournament, a person has to have stamina. Not only that, but it is not enough to just get through the tournament, but to have enough stamina to maintain that high level of play for the whole tournament. Not sure if that has anything to do with the differences, but it might.

I think that with some women, there are emotional differences too. Wont go into what I think about here though, because I have only observed at the club and to a small degree at the semi pro level. I really cannot say if these emotional differences i have observed are an issue with the women pros or not.

Laura

SPetty
08-20-2004, 07:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>I don't believe the U.S. Open is "for men only". I could be wrong, but I believe the Open is truly an Open tournament. If you pay the entry, you play.<hr /></blockquote>Well, we'll let you be wrong once a year. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

When I read that the USOpen was men only, I, like you, didn't believe it. I thought it was an open tournament like you thought. I wrote the Behrman's for confirmation. I did not receive an answer, so I waited a few weeks and wrote again. This time, Brady answered me and confirmed that it is "for men only". Although I asked, they didn't say why. I think they're ascared. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

#### leonard
08-20-2004, 07:07 AM
Shoutout I will give you my Babe Didrickson Zaharas story, she played a golf Exhibition at Wolferts Roost CC in Loudonville,NY. One of the particpants in the foursome was Ned Moore who would drive the ball a mile high and long, yet the Babe out drove him with a 240 yd drive and a rolling hook.

Finally Ned hit a boomer and Challenged the Babe to beat that drive. She stood up to the Challenged and hit a 260+ drive and the rolling hook and turned to the crowd and said if I didn't have these, pointing to her breasts, I would be twenty yards longer.

That is a problem women have that men don't have. Trying not to foul the balls has to create problems that men don't even think of. Unless you have a huge beer belly.####

Rich R.
08-20-2004, 07:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> When I read that the USOpen was men only, I, like you, didn't believe it. I thought it was an open tournament like you thought. I wrote the Behrman's for confirmation. I did not receive an answer, so I waited a few weeks and wrote again. This time, Brady answered me and confirmed that it is "for men only". Although I asked, they didn't say why. I think they're ascared. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I stand corrected. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

SPetty, where did you first read that the Open was "for men only"? I just scanned over their web site and, unless I missed it, it made no mention of men or women. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

KGeeED
08-20-2004, 08:09 AM
A player breaks and runs out. It doesn't matter who the player is that is sitting, it could be the number one player in the world. The player that is sitting will lose if you don't give that player a chance to get to the table. If Karen breaks and runs every rack she will win. Pool is finesse, no power is required except for the break. It can be number thing where there are more men playing than women so there is a larger population. But this goes for any sport. Look at shooting, darts, archery etc. The ladies at this time are not as good as the top men because most of them were never exposed to any of these sports. Given time I think you will see more women being even with the top men.

SPetty
08-20-2004, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> SPetty, where did you first read that the Open was "for men only"? <hr /></blockquote>I never saw it on their web site. Someone wrote it on a pool-related forum somewhere maybe 4-6 weeks ago.

Brady_Behrman
08-21-2004, 09:00 AM
The women have the Women's U.S.open in New Mexico and Barry Behrman gave up the Women's U.S.Open rights to the wpba, therefor "The U.S.Open 9-ball Championships" is a men's only event.

Women's U.S. Open 9-Ball

Dates:
October 20-24, 2004

Tournament Venue:
Sandia Casino

Location:
Albuquerque, NM

Phone:
Tickets not available at this time

E-mail:
marketing@sandiacasino.com

Website:
www.sandiacasino.com (http://www.sandiacasino.com)

phil in sofla
08-21-2004, 02:52 PM
An example from a sport that does take physical prowess into account, swimming.

Prior to the Mark Spitz Olympic medal record set at the Munich games in the '70s, there was this guy named Don Scholander, if I remember correctly. He was dominant like Spitz, winning maybe one less gold than Spitz did in breaking his medal record, AND mainly winning his golds with both Olympic and world record times.

Well, about the time Scholander was wreaking havoc in the Olympics, American women swimmers had been doing a lot of hard work in age-group programs, bringing up a lot of women swimming from very early ages.

Not sure exactly when it happened, but two or so Olympics later, those age-group trained women swimmers had gotten so close to the performance of men that at one of Scholander's signature events (100 meter freestyle? forget just now), Don's prior world record time would have BARELY medalled in the women's final, not gold, not silver, but bronze.

Of course, the MEN had also advanced their performances and cut their times as well. But the point was that the women had gotten a lot closer to the men, as the age-group training kicked into effect.

I expect that as more and more women play anything, and start at far younger ages, they'd be performing to a level very comparable to men (who've had greater numbers and earlier training and playing as advantages for a long time, which accounts for most, if not all, IMO, of the differences in the gender performances).

Barbara
08-21-2004, 03:05 PM
Yeah Phil,

Don Schollander was the sh*t before Spitz hit the scene. His specialty was freestyle and had the records in all the distances at one time, IIRC from the Guiness Book of Records. I was just a kid at the time, but he inspired me to swim competitively.

Plus the fact that I wanted to beat my one older brother who will be playing "Rack Boy" to me tomorrow at the 3rd annual, "Auntie Barbara vs the Uncles" match at my folks house.

Barbara

DeannaMichelle
08-21-2004, 10:20 PM
Personally, I feel it's a topic that too much thought and meaning is put into.

The ratio is lopsided, the years each gender has played, just as lopsided.

I don't feel gender, in itself, is a big enough factor to determine who's better. BUT at this time, and place in the world of Cue sports, men are, in my opinion, in a higher level of play. That doesn't mean I'm saying men are more skilled than women, but if you add up their years of playing, to the women's, there's going to be a significant difference--and it can be seen.

Karen and Allison, having been mentioned a lot here, are two excellent examples of women who started young, and carry a mental toughness, and fundamental consistency, at a level, that I personally feel not only makes them equal to the men's level of play overall, but shows why they are definate dominators in the WPBA.

I honestly feel the gap will be shifted, within the coming years, as the world of Billiards evolves, no doubt!

How old is Jean Balukas, btw?? *random thought, sorry*

Dea

JDB
08-22-2004, 12:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeannaMichelle:</font><hr>
The ratio is lopsided, the years each gender has played, just as lopsided.

Karen and Allison, having been mentioned a lot here, are two excellent examples of women who started young, and carry a mental toughness, and fundamental consistency, at a level, that I personally feel not only makes them equal to the men's level of play overall, but shows why they are definate dominators in the WPBA.
<hr /></blockquote>

The years each gender has played is not as important as specific people that have played the same number of years, IMO. If you take a man and woman that have both played the same number of years, what does it matter how many years the specific genders have played, on average?

I am sure if you looked at the different countries that represented the WPC this year you would see a contrast in the number of years that each have played pool. However, you would also see a mix of those different countries in the top 50 of the finishers.

Your second point about Allison and Karen show this point perfectly. No disrespect intended, because Allison and Karen are elite pool players; however, I honestly doubt that they would be in the top 50, combined with the men, and they have been playing their entire lives.

AndreaWilson
08-22-2004, 05:50 PM
I believe you also have to look at upbringing. In males the competitive instincts are honed starting at a very early age and be very intense causing survival and adrenalin reactions. Young girls are told to be supportive and play nicely and to share turns equally. QUITE A CONTRAST!

Try winning at pool and sharing turns. It doesn't work. Personally, some of the best pool I've played was under a controlled adrenaline rush. The rush came, but I had to put a lot of energy into keeping it centralized. The region around my diaphragm was vibrating, but I kept it there and didn't let it go to my shoulders or arms to cause odd twitches. Of course I entered deadstroke around that time. A tree could have fallen beside me and I would simply have looked at it, stepped over it, and carried on. Most importantly though was the fact that there was never any mental dilemma over whether to play a safety or go for a shot. It was like I followed a guideline provided by the balls on the table and that if you follow the guideline, you WILL win the game. You are truly one with the game at that point........quite an orgasmic experience.

I'm not about to have a sex change to try and experience that more though. I will learn to be more competitve at my own pace. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

DeannaMichelle
08-22-2004, 09:10 PM
I just simply have a different opinion. There's really no way to map out every factor that would determine a true result..all I know, is I feel Karen and Allison would do better than many would expect, and that in years to come, the ratio will change. (:

*random thought* Tonight, I won a race to 7, against a man that has been playing billiards for years. GO ME. Probably will never beat him again, but I did once, and that's all that counts at this moment!!

Dea

pooltchr
08-23-2004, 05:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote AndreaWilson:</font><hr> You are truly one with the game at that point........quite an orgasmic experience.<hr /></blockquote>

I KNEW there was a reason I love this game!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve

AndreaWilson
08-23-2004, 10:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote AndreaWilson:</font><hr> You are truly one with the game at that point........quite an orgasmic experience.<hr /></blockquote>

I KNEW there was a reason I love this game!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Careful Steve, you won't know what to think next time you see someone smiling around the pool table! LOL! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

SpiderMan
08-23-2004, 11:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote AndreaWilson:</font><hr> I believe you also have to look at upbringing. In males the competitive instincts are honed starting at a very early age and be very intense causing survival and adrenalin reactions. Young girls are told to be supportive and play nicely and to share turns equally. QUITE A CONTRAST! <hr /></blockquote>

This is true, but rather than thinking about an individual's lifetime, consider that men have been cast in those roles for millenia. It's had an evolutionary impact, ie those males who performed better in such roles lived, prospered, and passed on more of whatever genetics benefitted the situation.

These genetics may be advantageous to competition in certain sports and games, and, at the highest levels, may be a determining factor between individuals of otherwise-equal single-lifetime experiences.

SpiderMan

Chopstick
08-23-2004, 01:30 PM
Jean Balukas played the men's tour for a while. Over the years I have seen many women players in men's tour events. Nobody seemed to mind. From my own direct observations they seem to be about mid-range players in the men's division. I have never seen a woman get in the money in a men's tournament. This may have changed in recent years. I've been out of the game for a while.

9 Ball Girl
08-23-2004, 01:40 PM
I believe Karen Corr won definitely 1 if not 2 Joss tour events.

Corr Scores First Joss Tour Win (http://azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=812)

Joss Tour Results (http://azbilliards.com/2000allresults.cfm?tournum=1)

Wendy~~~too lazy to look through brackets! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Chopstick
08-23-2004, 02:05 PM
I have seen Karen play. I believe it. I like having women players around. It opens up possibilities of some very interesting games/bets.

shoutout33
08-23-2004, 03:41 PM
Jeez! I had no idea that this thread would blow up like this! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif My personal opinion on this subject is that if I'm playing against a female player who has the same skill level as me, I could be beat by her just like I could by any male. Now, even though this is a lower level of competition than most of you, I'm sure that the guys on these forums respect the female players and what they can do. Anybody can be beat on any given day.

Breaking balls, as far as stronger is better, doesn't always apply from what I've seen, (9-ball being the exception...) but even then, I've seen my ball breaking hero Johnny Archer crush balls like he normally does on a break...and NOT MAKE A BALL!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif But, on that same token, you could send the cueball at the rack around 15mph and pocket two balls. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif (FYI: At Valley Forge, I've seen some of the women pros take the Sardo Tight Rack challenge, and the fastest break was 27-29 mph. My best was a measly 21 mph and my cousin's was like 22-23 mph.)

I mean, if you want to say that it starts at an earlier age and boys are more competitive edge than girls, then ok, mabey. But still, pocketing balls, is pocketing balls and if the lady breaks and runs 4 times straight in a race to seven, you better bring that competitive male nature and do something!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sid_Vicious
08-23-2004, 06:35 PM
This is not the first response I've answered like this in this way...the caveman dedicated himself to the intensity of the hunt for food, stalking and focusing for the kill, the diligence and fortitude of succeeding, and bravery of taking on the enemy, all with a stick(pun.) All the while the cavewomen gathered colored berries and remodeled the cave, and visited until the man got back. You may agrue with me, that's ok, but I firmly believe that those beginning brain cells in the early humans still dominate for the most part. Women seem to be less agressive and more sensitive to everything around them, to the patrons cloths, or lack of taste, and to the chatter. Men still remember the hunt...sid