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Qtec
08-19-2004, 06:57 PM
Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01


Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events. In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.



But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."
Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.


A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.



I think the Swift boats are starting to sink. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Q

eg8r
08-20-2004, 07:24 AM
LOL, if they sink, then Moore drowned a long time ago.

eg8r

highsea
08-20-2004, 03:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>I think the Swift boats are starting to sink. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Q<hr /></blockquote>I wonder.

Apparently the Post is "unable" to hand over the records they based this story on. The records, known as "After-Action Reports", were routinely filed after each patrol.

Guess who wrote most of the reports???

I have a feeling that the SBV's are going to file their own FOI request for this report. It might look just a wee bit funny if it turns out that Kerry was the one who wrote the report that earned him his Bronze Star. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Read about it here. (http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200408\POL 20040819d.html)

-CM

crawdaddio
08-20-2004, 03:58 PM
Here's a link to the "citation" given to Thurlow. It clearly states that "All units began recieving small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from the river banks." Signed by Zumwalt, not Kerry.

http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/Thurlow%20Citation.pdf

I think it's also interesting who is funding these swift vets. They don't even mention Spaeth in this article.

[ QUOTE ]
Although the word "Republican" does not appear in the ad, the group's financing is highly partisan. The source of the Swift Boat group's money wasn't known when it first surfaced, but a report filed July 15 with the Internal Revenue Services now shows its initial funding came mainly from a Houston home builder, Bob R. Perry, who has also given millions to the Republican party and Republican candidates, mostly in Texas, including President Bush and Republican Majority Leader Tom DeLay, whose district is near Houston

Perry gave $100,000 of the $158,750 received by the Swift Boat group through the end of June, according to its disclosure report .

Perry and his wife Doylene also gave more than $3 million to Texas Republicans during the 2002 elections, according to a database maintained by the Institute on Money in State Politics . <hr /></blockquote>

http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

Peace

highsea
08-20-2004, 04:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr> Here's a link to the "citation" given to Thurlow. It clearly states that "All units began recieving small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from the river banks." Signed by Zumwalt, not Kerry.<hr /></blockquote> I was already aware of that. If you read my link, you would have seen what Thurlow said: [ QUOTE ]
"What they're trying to do is discredit us," Thurlow said of the Kerry campaign. "If they can make anyone think we're not factual and not telling the truth, they've won that round."

If he could go back to Vietnam and do anything over again, he said he wouldn't have allowed Kerry to write the after-action reports.

"Back then, John would actually volunteer to write them up," Thurlow said. "He wouldn't be the officer in tactical command very often because he was fairly junior in the sense of who had been in country the longest.

"Nobody wanted to write these things," he added. "You're already drained from hours out on whatever the situation was. You wanted to clean up, get something to eat and get some sleep. John would say, 'I'll write this up.' [We'd say], 'Go for it, John.'

Proving that Kerry falsified reports is difficult, Thurlow acknowledged. He said higher-ranking commanders often gave a rubber-stamp signature to the reports because they trusted their officers to be honest.<hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr>I think it's also interesting who is funding these swift vets. They don't even mention Spaeth in this article.

Although the word "Republican" does not appear in the ad, the group's financing is highly partisan. The source of the Swift Boat group's money wasn't known when it first surfaced, but a report filed July 15 with the Internal Revenue Services now shows its initial funding came mainly from a Houston home builder, Bob R. Perry, who has also given millions to the Republican party and Republican candidates, mostly in Texas, including President Bush and Republican Majority Leader Tom DeLay, whose district is near Houston

Perry gave $100,000 of the $158,750 received by the Swift Boat group through the end of June, according to its disclosure report .

Perry and his wife Doylene also gave more than $3 million to Texas Republicans during the 2002 elections, according to a database maintained by the Institute on Money in State Politics .

Peace <hr /></blockquote>ROFL. George Soros gives 12.6 million to liberal 527's, (including 2.5 million to moveon.org) for Bush attack ads. Moveon's director "temporarily quits" to work for the Kerry campaign. No connection there...yeah right. Look at the Media Fund, America Coming Together, the Joint Victory Fund. Peter Lewis gives over 14 million (including 2.5 million to moveon.org), and Steven Bing gives over 8 million(a million to moveon.org). Those are just the top 3.

I guess partisan funding for these groups is only okay for Liberals. The GOP doesn't have squat in comparison to the Dems when it comes to 527 spending. 100,000 dollars. OH! How unfair! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Give me a break. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

You may find it interesting to know that today the FEC voted to regulate the 527 groups in the next election cycle. Any group that collects over $1,000.00 will be bound by Federal Election Finance Laws. No more multi-million dollar individual donations. Hopefully that will extend to Hollywood "film makers", who create 90 minute attack ads and charge people to watch them..

-CM

Fair_Play
08-20-2004, 04:48 PM
JFK-Heinz as victim? 260 lying veterans?
Only <font color="blue"> ONE </font color>puzzle:
To silence all of these critics
the glib senator
needs only to
release his <font color="red"> entire</font color> military record.
His refusal to do so speaks
volumes ,
as does his ever changing version
of what really happened.
A well spoken, wealthy, glib and learned skunk
in the woodpile, expert at obfuscation, and solely
focused on self aggrandizement.
Best Regards,
Fair Play!

highsea
08-20-2004, 05:12 PM
Kerry Files Suit Vs. Ads Challenging His War Record

FORT MYERS, Fla. (Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry asked the Federal Election Commission on Friday to force Republican critics to withdraw ads challenging his military service, and accused the Bush campaign of illegally helping coordinate the attacks.

The Kerry campaign said it filed the complaint against the group behind the ads, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, "for violating the law with inaccurate ads that are illegally coordinated with the Bush-Cheney presidential campaign and Republican National Committee."

The campaign said there is "overwhelming evidence" that the group is coordinating its spending on advertising and other activities with the President Bush's campaign for reelection.

Bush campaign spokesman Scott Stanzel denied any coordination with the Swift Boat group, called it "a frivolous complaint."

Bush and a top adviser have long-standing ties to people behind the advertisements, which claim Kerry lied about his Vietnam War service record, but the campaign denies any part in the ads themselves.

The White House has declined to specifically condemn the Swift Boat commercials. It has instead challenged Kerry to join Bush in calling for an end to all ads funded by unrestricted donations, including those questioning Bush's service in the United States in the National Guard during the Vietnam War.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&amp;storyID=603380 6

Looks like JFKHeinz is going to drop back to the ol' "tried and true". I guess threatening to sue the stations that air the ads didn't work.

I like that "overwhelming evidence" and "long standing ties".

I seem to recall a moveon.org ad that accused Bush of being AWOL. And one on their website that compared Bush to Hitler. But moveon.org does not have any ties to Kerry, now do they? Oh, yeah, I forgot, Moveon.org's director works for the Kerry Campaign. Gee, sounds a little hypocritical to me.

-CM

highsea
08-20-2004, 08:08 PM
Member of Kerry's legal team faces solicitation citation

DETROIT - A member of Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's national legal team received a citation on accusations he solicited a prostitute, but the aide said it was the result of a misunderstanding.

Former Michigan Democratic Party chairman Melvin "Butch" Hollowell, 44, who left his party post earlier this month, was pulled over Tuesday night by Wayne County sheriff's deputies not far from his home in the Palmer Woods neighborhood.

Deputies saw Hollowell pick up a woman and followed him briefly before making the stop, sheriff's department spokesman John Roach told The Detroit News for a Friday story. Hollowell was not arrested and was released after his vehicle was impounded. He and the woman both were issued citations, Roach said.

In a statement released late Thursday, Hollowell called the incident "all a gross misunderstanding." Hollowell said he saw a woman he thought was in distress and stopped to help her.

"The officers indicated that the woman was a known prostitute," Hollowell said. "No one was more surprised and embarrassed than me when the officers told me this."

The Story (http://news.bostonherald.com/election/view.bg?articleid=40717&amp;format=)

This shouldn't slow Kerry down much, he's got lots of lawyers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

-CM

Fair_Play
08-20-2004, 08:45 PM
Actually, he thought it was Teresa...(Gosh, that IS in bad taste!)... again, it all boils down to the fact that the leader of any group sets the tone.. not surprising in the least! Now, for what conceivable reason would "Herr Heinz Kerry Kerrey" valorous warrior, not release his military records? That one takes very very little thought!
Best Regards,
Fair Play!

eg8r
08-20-2004, 10:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry asked the Federal Election Commission on Friday to force Republican critics to withdraw ads challenging his military service, and accused the Bush campaign of illegally helping coordinate the attacks.
<hr /></blockquote> Hmmm, a Democrat asking the FEC to remove the right to free speech from these veterans. I guess the right to free speech is just not a big deal for the Dems except when the Ditzy Twits say something. Any act of silencing them (which was perfectly legal and a great example of the station owners excercising their own right to free speech) is against free speech but Kerry should be allowed to silence the SBVs. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Hypocrite.

eg8r

Qtec
08-20-2004, 10:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>I think the Swift boats are starting to sink. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Q<hr /></blockquote>I wonder.

Apparently the Post is "unable" to hand over the records they based this story on. <font color="blue">So what.What does unable mean? The documents were released under the Freedom of Information Act[ ie free to all- not seceret, </font color> The records, known as "After-Action Reports", were routinely filed after each patrol.

Guess who wrote most of the reports??? <font color="blue"> Do you know something we dont or are you just guessing? Thought so. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

I have a feeling that the SBV's are going to file their own FOI request for this report. It might look just a wee bit funny if it turns out that Kerry was the one who wrote the report that earned him his Bronze Star. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Read about it here. (http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200408\POL 20040819d.html)

-CM <hr /></blockquote>


If Kerry,s medal was a sham, so was the medal for Thurlow!
Answer me this; why did Thurlow accept a medal for bravery for something that never happened ?
Why did he wait 40 years to say something about it, if it is such a big issue?

He hates Kerry. Pure and simple.

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

highsea
08-21-2004, 02:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>If Kerry,s medal was a sham, so was the medal for Thurlow! Answer me this; why did Thurlow accept a medal for bravery for something that never happened ?
Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>Well, did you read the article? You and Thurlow agree![ QUOTE ]
Both Thurlow and Kerry were awarded the Bronze Star medal for their actions on the Bay Hap River.

Kerry's own account is that during the Bay Hap River incident, he rescued another veteran, Jim Rassmann, while coming under fire from the Viet Cong. Rassmann backs up Kerry's version of events. But Thurlow said the awards, including his own, may have been inappropriately handed out as a result of a false report filed by Kerry.

"We were never under hostile fire," Thurlow told CNSNews.com as he recalled the events of March 13, 1969. "And if that's something that has to happen for me to get that Bronze Star, then I have had it all these years under false pretenses. I'll be happy to return the thing. I don't want the thing under fraudulent circumstances."

As reported by the Washington Post, the Navy award recommendation of March 23, 1969, indicated that Thurlow and Kerry had been subjected to "small arms and automatic weapons fire" along the Bay Hap River. Thursday's article in the Post used that statement, included in Thurlow's military records, to contradict Thurlow's current claim that there was no gunfire.

"The hostile fire is based entirely on [Kerry's] report," Thurlow said. "My contention, both then and now, is that there was no hostile fire."<hr /></blockquote>The accounts of the day vary pretty widely: [ QUOTE ]
According to Thurlow, "After the mine exploded, leaving swift boat three dead in the water, John Kerry's boat, which was on the opposite side of the river, fled the scene. US Army Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who was on Kerry's boat at the time, fell off the boat and into the water. Kerry's boat returned several minutes later -- under no hail of enemy gunfire -- to retrieve Rassmann from the river only seconds before another boat was going to pick him up."

John O'Neill, another Swift Boat Veteran, told Fox News on Friday, "This is a little tiny canal, 75 yards wide. The boats were there an hour and a half - absolutely nobody wounded, not a single bullet hole of any kind." O'Neill called it "tragic" that Friday's New York Times "ignores all that."

Kerry and Rassmann tell a different story about that day on the river. "All those Viet Cong were shooting at me. I expected to be shot. When he (Kerry) pulled me out of the river, he risked his life to save mine," Jim Rassmann says in a new TV ad released by the Kerry campaign on Thursday.<hr /></blockquote>I don't know who is telling the truth here, Q. Thurlow was there, Kerry was there. Thurlow says Kerry wrote the reports. Why should I assume he is the liar, when Kerry's the politician?

260 Swift Boat guys back up Thurlow. You'd think will all that machine gun fire all around, there would've been a couple bullet holes in the boats at least. Those VC must have been pretty bad shots.

Anyway, like Fair_Play said, Kerry could just release his medical records, and this could all go away for him.

-CM

eg8r
08-21-2004, 05:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> Guess who wrote most of the reports??? <blockquote><font class="small">Quote q:</font><hr> Do you know something we dont or are you just guessing? Thought so. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote> LOL, what is the matter Q. Does it not bother you every single time you make the exact same type of post. This quote from highsea is so exactly similar in style to 90% of your posts and you question him.

As far as him knowing any more information (which is highly doubted of yourself every time you post in a similar style), I guess you will just have to accept it similar to the way you act like we should handle your "information". LOL

[ QUOTE ]
If Kerry,s medal was a sham, so was the medal for Thurlow!
<hr /></blockquote> I don't believe Thurlow would have a problem with that, however, if this was to happen then all the rest of the medals would come under even more scrutiny and Kerry would surely have nothing to stand on and quite possibly lose the election. Seems to me Kerry has more to lose, so what is your point?

[ QUOTE ]
Why did he wait 40 years to say something about it, if it is such a big issue?
<hr /></blockquote> I don't know, do you have a conspiracy theory about it? I think he probably thought it would be a great idea to stay quiet when they were given the medals, now finally after all these years he understands that it was wrong and is willing to say it out loud. The big difference is that Kerry, morally, is unable to do so. One other possibility would be that he accepted the medal on purpose so as to give him a way to ruin Kerry's character should Kerry ever run for President. Does this example sound a little along the lines as something you would suggest? I think so.

eg8r

eg8r
08-21-2004, 05:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
John O'Neill, another Swift Boat Veteran, told Fox News on Friday, "This is a little tiny canal, 75 yards wide. <hr /></blockquote> Just a quick question since I have never been to Vietnam, but what would we have here in the US that would be called a canal? I thought of them as very small bodies of water similar to a river. We had a canal behind my house when I live in south florida. They look like small rivers of slow moving water. If the canal mentioned in the quote above was 75 yards wide, I don't think I would refer to that as a "small" canal. Are they calling a "pond" a small canal?

eg8r

highsea
08-21-2004, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>Just a quick question since I have never been to Vietnam, but what would we have here in the US that would be called a canal? I thought of them as very small bodies of water similar to a river. We had a canal behind my house when I live in south florida. They look like small rivers of slow moving water. If the canal mentioned in the quote above was 75 yards wide, I don't think I would refer to that as a "small" canal. Are they calling a "pond" a small canal?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>A canal is basically an inlet or a passage. They are not all the same size. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif For example, the Panama Canal, the Suez Canal. the Hood Canal. They are usually fairly long and narrow, compared to their overall size. They are usually salt water, but two fresh water lakes could be joined by a "canal". The ICW has many little canals and inlets, right? Some small, some larger. 75 yards wide is a pretty small one.

-CM