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ras314
08-19-2004, 08:20 PM
We finally got the local bar crowd playing 9 ball, now have two 9 ball tourneys and one 8 ball per week. Not a whole lot of rule trouble, most haven't played 9 ball so we just stuck with straight BCA rules.

Here's how we lost one player. He missed the three ball shot and left a good safety with the four lined up on the nine which was setting in the pocket. So his opponent simply shot the four out of the way and gave him BIH. Jerk finished the game and lost, knocking several balls off the table. Announced he wasn't playing with &^%! dirty pool players, ect. and left. Even convinced some people he was correct.

I though I had some Accu-stats tapes where the commentators recommended tying up balls when you were safed too badly to hit your ob. All I can find when this was recommended was during a push.

Does any one know of anything within the BCA rules that could be considered "dirty pool" by other than bar players?

Also switched to BCA 8 ball rules. Mass confusion has reined, but seems to be working out ok. Did have to allow the 8 on the break as a win. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bob_Jewett
08-19-2004, 08:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>... Here's how we lost one player. He missed the three ball shot and left a good safety with the four lined up on the nine which was setting in the pocket. So his opponent simply shot the four out of the way and gave him BIH. Jerk finished the game and lost, knocking several balls off the table. Announced he wasn't playing with &amp;^%! dirty pool players, ect. and left. Even convinced some people he was correct.
... <hr /></blockquote>
I'd like to be there (in a safe place) the first time someone loses on three fouls. I hope you come out of it OK.

If you're going to take a foul, any shot is permitted. It is not permitted to intentionally move balls with your hands and such. For example, if the cue ball is stuck behind the seven, and the one-nine combo is close to the far corner and impossible to hit, you can't just knock the nine into the pocket with your stick. Such a move is considered completely outside the game and unsportsmanlike conduct.

Troy
08-19-2004, 09:04 PM
Bar players have their own "rules" and it's difficult if not impossible to re-train the "un-trainable". Sometimes it's even dangerous.

Most bar players even have a racial slur name for those playing a safety... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Troy

ras314
08-19-2004, 09:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> I'd like to be there (in a safe place) the first time someone loses on three fouls. I hope you come out of it OK. <hr /></blockquote>

I actually did have a guy 3 foul on me in an early tourney. I kept my mouth shut and told him about the rule after the game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Actually I forgot to warn him after the 2'nd foul anyway.

So far no one has shot a combo with a stripe into a solid type shot when the table is open in the 8 ball tourney. And I ain't going to be the first to do it! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It is the unsportsmanlike conduct issues I am concerned with. Ignorance of the rules is going to be expected for a while, but the bar is at least trying to improve to "bar pool" image.

ras314
08-19-2004, 09:22 PM
Been there and seen that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Rod
08-19-2004, 09:24 PM
With the c/b only, you can shoot any ball. Course you give up BIH if it'a the wrong ball but it might save the game. Not likely depending on who your playing, but it offers a glimmer of hope.

Rod

stickman
08-19-2004, 10:05 PM
If you want to win, you use the rules to your best advantage. It's not dirty pool, only smart play. If they are only exposed to bar-room play, and never played in leagues or tournaments, they are likely to think it is dirty. Have copies of the rules available for the players. It will get better as they adjust from the previous bar-room rules. Even the guy that walked out will likely see the light eventually. Good Luck. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

sack316
08-19-2004, 10:45 PM
just one funny thing to me. "bar room" players complaining about dirty pool? I bet the same guy that complained about that shot would also just tap the cue ball behind something to stop someone else from shooting the 8 in 8ball.

bill190
08-19-2004, 11:22 PM
The person who go mad and left is the type you don't want in your tournaments. If you were to change the rules to this persons liking, then next time it would be something else he would get mad about. I don't know why these people play in tournaments anyway. They get so upset about losing or just playing poorly that I would think they would seek counseling or find something less stressful in their life. The thing is, only one person can win.

Stick to strict BCA rules for 9-ball. This is real world 9-ball and players who get good and go on to play elsewhere might as well learn the rules now. Safeties and intentional fouls are a part of the game.

For 8-ball, your 8 on the break modification sounds OK, also some tournaments switch to cue ball in the kitchen rather than ball-in-hand.

Other than that; Don't change any rules for several months. If you encounter problems/fights, etc. due to a particular rule, then after several months may want to consider changing the rule. The rule is, don't change any rules unless they make the tournament play go faster or prevent arguments. For example, call pocket prevents arguments that "bar call shot" might cause. And open after the break makes the tournament proceed faster.

You'll get everybody and their brother wanting to change any and all rules. (Say you'll consider it, but don't do anything for several months and only if necessary.) Sticking to rules like BCA is better in the long run since these are common and well written. The players who win frequently will try to change rules so they can win more frequently. Such as banning safeties. Also they may want just a 1st and 2nd place. Allow safeties/defensive play and pay something for 3rd and 4th. The lesser skilled players will be thrilled to win anything. And keep in mind that the lesser skilled players are the ones who are putting up most of the prize money - keep them happy.

woody_968
08-19-2004, 11:35 PM
Nothing dirty about it, and if he doesnt like it he doesnt need to play tournaments because tournament players will know to move a combo if they cant hit the low ball.

bluewolf
08-20-2004, 06:22 AM
Do not have much experience in 9ball. In 8 ball, if I cannot hit my ball, I hit one of theirs to attempt to put it in a less advantageous place for them, making it harder for them to get out. If I am successful, then they use their BIH to undo the mess I created for them rather than to their advantage, which is better for me than missing a difficult kick.

This is risky when playing a real good player, but if I cannot hit my ball or if the kick is beyond my ability, then what do I have to lose?

This might be dirty pool in bar pool but not league or tournament pool, imo.

Laura

GoldenCyn
08-20-2004, 06:49 AM
Well, this is what happened to me last night at a local tournament:

CB was at one end behind a couple of balls, and the 1 ball was on the opposite end (directly ahead). There was no way to the 1 ball, i couldnt kick or hit off the rail. I elevated my cue and imagined a clock on the CB and aimed for the spot in between the center and 6pm. I attempted the shot but it did not jump, instead hit the ball in front of the CB and just drew back heavily. This gave my opponent BIH. He then put the CB nearly in front of the 1 ball and tapped the CB in the opposite direction so it would carom off the 1 ball and send the CB right back to the position where i attemted to jump the CB in the fist place. Again, i was stuck behind a buch of balls and couldnt make the shot. I knew that he knew i didnt know how to properly jump (he had his own jump cue and his jump shots were on point, so i guess that when he first saw me elevate my cue for the jump, he immediately knew he could screw me over by forcing me to foul twice). I didnt want to look stupid so i didnt attempt the jump shot, instead, i tried it off the rail with alot of english, and it came extreamly close, but hit the 5 ball instead, making it the second foul, and ending the game. Needless to say that this pissed me off, and i played mad the rest of the games against him, and that threw me off big time. Only smile that came to my face was when i pocketed the 9 on the brake twice during our race to 5.

On my next game with a different opponent on a race to 3, my jump shots worked, and when i was about to make the shot, my opponent said something about my cue not being right for jump shots and that it will mess up the tip. Regardless, i made the jump, but not the shot (the CB did make contact with the OB, but no pocketing of the OB). Can anyone elaborate on what he was trying to tell me?

Wally_in_Cincy
08-20-2004, 06:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sack316:</font><hr> just one funny thing to me. "bar room" players complaining about dirty pool? I bet the same guy that complained about that shot would also just tap the cue ball behind something to stop someone else from shooting the 8 in 8ball. <hr /></blockquote>

or scratch "accidentally" when his opponent has the 8-ball in the kitchen when playing by "ball-in-hand in the kitchen" rules

ras314
08-20-2004, 07:01 AM
Bill, this guy is an old fellow that is the most aggravating guy I know, means well usually but is an opinionated, ignorant, know it all type. First 9 ball he's ever played is in these tournaments which is of course "just a slop game". Some others in the same boat but I think the level of pool in Reserve is slowly improving.

Sack316 hit the nail on the head, same guy would hide a cb without bothering to hit anything. Along with some others. I think that is why BIH rules started in the first place.

This area has one of the "dirtiest" players it has ever been my misfortune to play. Will move balls as he walks around the table, wait till he thinks no one is watching to take an illegal shot, ect. Haven't seen him in a while, maybe somebody has finally taught him the error of his ways.

It is taking a while to get the idea that safeties are a part of the game across. Even had arguments that kicking the cb was hitting a rail and not a foul when nothing else hit a rail. I printed copies of the BCA rules from the internet site and handed them out to anyone that wanted. Turns out that showing the appropriate rule in the BCA rule book works better.

Whole idea of BCA rules was to reduce the agruments, fights, and hard feelings that "gentlemens" bar rules encourage. I wasn't the one that started the switch but am doing all I can to encourage the change.

GoldenCyn
08-20-2004, 07:10 AM
One rule i never understood in bars is the following:

In an 8 Ball game, if after pocketing the 7 ball i accidentally scratch, the 8 ball is placed at the foot spot, and the CB at the head spot. Or, if a shot on the 8 ball is not successful, then the same action is taken by moving both balls. In some bars, scratching on the 8 Ball is not the end of the game. I love this rule: At any point in the game, if the CB is on the rail, or even near the rail, it is seperated front the rail by the butt of the cue (whatever the width of the butt of cue is how far the cb must be from the rail). I think 8 ball is great for just messing around, but the rules seem to confuse the [censored] out of people.

Wally_in_Cincy
08-20-2004, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> ... It will get better as they adjust from the previous bar-room rules....<hr /></blockquote>

I have found that to be the case. A lot of bar players, the first time they see an APA match played, will issue many derisive comments. But once they understand the logic behind the rules they come around. Well, most do anyway /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Kathy and I played in a scotch-doubles tourney last weekend. Two guys got in it without knowing the APA rules.

We beat them in the first round 2-0 leaving them with 5 balls on the table the first game and 7 balls the second game. I even let them get away with a bad hit since I did not want to start an argument. One of the guys was so pissed he walked out pointing his finger at me screaming

I would kick your ass in straight pool" (in the bars around here "call-your-shot 8-ball" is called "straight pool" by alot of people)

ras314
08-20-2004, 07:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
or scratch "accidentally" when his opponent has the 8-ball in the kitchen when playing by "ball-in-hand in the kitchen" rules <hr /></blockquote>
Hey, I remember spending hours learning to control "miscues". The safest way to scratch in those circumstances /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
And bar tables were a quarter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Barbara
08-20-2004, 07:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> So his opponent simply shot the four out of the way and gave him BIH. Jerk finished the game and lost, knocking several balls off the table. Announced he wasn't playing with &amp;^%! dirty pool players, ect. and left. Even convinced some people he was correct.

<hr /></blockquote>

I'm not clear here. Did he use the CB to move the four away from the 9 or did he just move the 4 with his cue?

In the former instance, this is a legitamite shot also known as taking an intentional foul. In the latter instance this is clearly unsportsmanlike conduct and the player should be warned that another instance will result in loss of game.

Barbara

ras314
08-20-2004, 10:20 AM
"I'm not clear here. Did he use the CB to move the four away from the 9 or did he just move the 4 with his cue?"

Barbara,

He shot the 4 with the cb, one of the few people that knows the rules and one of the top players here.

Another stunt I've had happen is not calling a push. If the ob is hit they will take a ball that falls in. Or claim a foul if the opponent picks up the cb. I've had to ask if the shot is going to be a push, often getting no answer. Probably should enforce the rule that the opponent has to acknowledge the push one of these days.

Oh well, one thing at a time. These are cheap $5 tournaments, by the time we have a another $50 tourney maybe the rules will be understood better.

tn8ball
08-20-2004, 10:29 AM
I've always called bar rules "drunk rules", tell the person to watch the pros on TV and see what rules they play by. Bar rules were made IMO so that the drunks can have another shot. Being one of the drunks, I really liked them for a long time, but have since learned better.

Not necessarily better than being on of the drunks. . .

I would've moved the 4 also, it's no different than shooting the 9 in out of turn if it's hanging and giving BIH with the 9 spotted.

UWPoolGod
08-20-2004, 10:30 AM
Totally fine in my book. If you are safed terribly with an open table in front of your opponent, why not tie something up. The old school bar players just need to figure out those little strategy quirks and add it to their game.

stickman
08-20-2004, 10:31 AM
Call your shot or call pocket? I refuse to play call shot. Some of these boneheads are rediculous on call shot. LOL

ras314
08-20-2004, 10:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> Call your shot or call pocket? I refuse to play call shot. Some of these boneheads are rediculous on call shot. LOL <hr /></blockquote>

Boy, have you got that right. How many bobbles in the corner pocket, allow the short rail hit on a long rail kick, ect. Never realized how hard it is to explain any version of bar call shot rules to a pool hall player till I had to try at one of our $50 8 ball tournaments.

Money is best not involved in a bar rule game.

ras314
08-20-2004, 12:10 PM
GoldenCyn,

"In an 8 Ball game, if after pocketing the 7 ball i accidentally scratch, the 8 ball is placed at the foot spot, and the CB at the head spot. Or, if a shot on the 8 ball is not successful, then the same action is taken by moving both balls. In some bars, scratching on the 8 Ball is not the end of the game."

Haven't run across any of those yet. Sounds like some sort of Yankee rules. LOL

In your earlier post it sounds like you only had 2 fouls, or maybe you just lost it and blew the third try. Some find they shoot better mad but it just makes things worse for me. Strangely if playing for a little money almost nothing will get me angry, but when playing for fun I can't stand stupid idiots. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Thanks everyone for the replies. I have printed the whole thread and will give it to the TD at tonights 8 ball tournament.

woody_968
08-20-2004, 04:51 PM
GoldenCyn, Why did you loose on the second foul?

I know of the three foul rule, but never heard anyone play two fouls is a loss of game. On bar tables most people dont even play the 3 foul rule.

PoolFool
08-21-2004, 10:06 AM
I think the rule confusion in bars has come from an evolution in rule changes over time and the blending of bar rules,BCA rules and made up rules from different parts of the country. Some quotes from the Regulation Rule Book for Pool and Billiards by Willie Mosconi, 1966.
"While shooting 8-ball, player losses game for any of the following reasons: Failure to drive cue ball into cushion contact after striking 8-ball, or to drive 8-ball to a cushion." "Failure to hit 8-ball on a bank shot"

Ball in Hand - "If player has cue ball in hand and correct object ball-including 8-ball- is behind head string, object ball must be spotted on foot spot"
I keep these rules with me and have fun playing bars where they make up their own rules. Who's going to argue with Willie Mosconi?

PoolFool