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mred477
08-22-2004, 10:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage. <hr /></blockquote>

Alexander Tyler writing about the fall of the Athenian Republic over 100 years ago.

A scary commentary on the direction this country is headed. Whether the elected official is Democrat or Republican, the one constant is their ability to pass new spending without ever rescinding any.

Will ~ discouraged Libertarian

highsea
08-22-2004, 11:19 PM
Well, the timing is a little off, considering the Athenian republic fell about 2,200 years ago rather than 100, But I know what your point is, Will. The pattern repeated itself with Rome, when it fell to Odoacer in 476 A.D.

"Bread and Circuses" is the popular term. Decay, Financial Problems, The Public Dole, Hoarding and Deficit. The surrounding countryside could not support the population living on State provided freebies.

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent Presidential election:

Population of counties won by:

Gore=127 million
Bush=143 million

Square miles of land won by:

Gore=580,000
Bush=2,427,000

States won by:

Gore=19
Bush=29

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:

Gore=13.2
Bush=2.1

Professor Olson adds:

"In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare..."

Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the "complacency and "apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy; with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

-CM

Wally_in_Cincy
08-23-2004, 06:06 AM
Tyler's probly right but I thought we were goners during the Carter malaise. Fortunately Reagan came along.

We shall see. Let's hope for the best because this really is the shining city on the hill.

Qtec
08-23-2004, 10:32 AM
4. Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University is not the source of any of the statistics or the text attributed to him. Professor Olson was contacted (by me) via e-mail, and he confirmed that he had no authorship or involvement in this matter. And, as Fayette Citizen editor Dave Hamrick wrote back in January 2001:

I really enjoyed one recent message that was circulated extremely widely, at least among conservatives. It gave several interesting "facts" supposedly compiled by statisticians and political scientists about the counties across the nation that voted for George Bush and the ones that voted for Al Gore in the recent election.

Supposedly, the people in the counties for Bush had more education, more income, ad infinitum, than the counties for Gore.

I didn't have time to check them all out, but I was curious about one item in particular... the contention that the murder rate in the Gore counties was about a billion times higher than in the Bush counties.

This was attributed to a Professor Joseph Olson at the Hamline University School of Law. I never heard of such a university, but went online and found it. And Prof. Olson does exist.

"Now I'm getting somewhere," I thought.

But in response to my e-mail, Olson said the "research" was attributed to him erroneously. He said it came from a Sheriff Jay Printz in Montana. I e-mailed Sheriff Printz, and guess what? He didn't do the research either, and didn't remember who had e-mailed it to him.

In other words, he got the same legend e-mailed to him and passed it on to Olson without checking it out, and when Olson passed it on, someone thought it sounded better if a law professor had done the research, and so it grew.

Who knows where it originally came from, but it's just not true.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp


Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

mred477
08-23-2004, 11:16 AM
He was speaking about the Athenian republic, but he spoke the words just a little over 100 years ago, just to clear that up. Regardless, it should only take a look at the history books to see the direction this country is headed...even if the liberals are fond of re-writing history.

Will

ras314
08-23-2004, 12:03 PM
Q,

You should look at a map of the US showing which counties in the country voted for Gore or Bush. Then superimposing a map showing the population of those counties should give you a clue.

eg8r
08-23-2004, 12:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
There is a distinct difference between these two numbers, but it is nowhere near as large as the quoted e-mail message states (i.e., 13.2 for Gore vs. 2.1 for Bush). <hr /></blockquote> LOL, even after someone decides to discredit the fact that Gore's population is "more murderous" (maybe they already believe the criminals would prefer Gore, they just wanted to see if it was so exaggerated) they still come up with the same ultimate result. Criminals liked Gore more than Bush, and one would venture to bet the same could be said for Kerry. Only Kerry has new murderers supporting him, Kerry has the full support of the terrorists.

eg8r

eg8r
08-23-2004, 12:13 PM
Q is not interested in the truth. He only cares about finding one single person who tries to discredit Bush or any that show some resemblance of agreement with Bush.

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
08-23-2004, 12:15 PM
whatever dude

http://www.sovereignty.net/art/electionmap.gif

pooltchr
08-23-2004, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
Who knows where it originally came from, but it's just not true.

<hr /></blockquote>
Since you say you don't know the origin, how can you state that it isn't true? You have enough information to state that it isn't verified, but you don't have enough to state that it is false.

nAz
08-23-2004, 01:19 PM
hmmm looks like the map says the intelligent people live in the blue area /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
so we people in blue areas are a bunch of criminals! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Qtec
08-23-2004, 02:28 PM
What it would show is that more people voted for Gore than Bush!

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

eg8r
08-23-2004, 02:33 PM
I think that part was part of the quote he provided. Once again, Q rarely posts what he thinks (even more rarely will a post include his interpretation backed with fact). He merely relies on the chance that what he quoted will be enough to suffice without him having to offer anything personally.

eg8r

eg8r
08-23-2004, 02:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What it would show is that more people voted for Gore than Bush! <hr /></blockquote> Whew, thank God for the electoral college. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Qtec
08-23-2004, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Q is not interested in the truth. He only cares about finding one single person who tries to discredit Bush or any that show some resemblance of agreement with Bush.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

The TRUTH is that this e-mail/article has nothing to do with Professor Joseph Olson at the Hamline University School of Law.
Obviously the real author didnt have the guts to put his own name to it. Wonder why?
Q

eg8r
08-23-2004, 02:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously the real author didnt have the guts to put his own name to it. Wonder why?
<hr /></blockquote> LOL, you sit there and figure it out.

eg8r

Qtec
08-23-2004, 02:49 PM
Like I said, this article has nothing to do with Professor Joseph Olson at the Hamline University School of Law.Thats the only point I was making.

As to the statistics,you can bend them any way you want to suit your purpose.
eg,
Population of counties won by:
Gore=127 million
Bush=143 million

This gives the impression that Bush won more votes than Gore and we know that this isnt the case. Gore won 400,000 votes more than Bush.ie more people voted against Bush than for!

Q

Ross
08-23-2004, 04:31 PM
"Square miles of land won by: Gore=580,000, Bush=2,427,000
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore=13.2, Bush=2.1"

The numbers simply reflect the fact that Democrats traditionally do better in urban areas and Republicans do better in rural ones, especially in the midwest. That explains both the greater land area per voter and lower crime rates. Unfortunately the offered interpretation is cleverly written in a way to falsely imply that Gores voters were mostly tenement-dwelling welfare recipients.

This type of logic is easy and fun - "Crime rates are highest in areas that have the most churches per square mile."

Or how about "Bush support highest in counties where boys have sex with animals."?

Both statements are true, and as fair as the misattributed quote that was given. Heaven help us...