PDA

View Full Version : 14.1 is this freakin legal???



nAz
08-23-2004, 02:28 PM
I was playing a match of straight pool two weeks ago and i was on two scratches the last scratch the CB went into a pocket.
my opponent apologized to me for what he was about to do told me that if i was not so far a head he would not do this... (83-32) he took the CB and put it in the inside of the left pocket by the head rail, then he just tapped the tip of his cue against the CB.(putting him one one foul)
I thought that was illegal to do, i thought one had to send the CB up and down the table. (shoot pass the head string) he told me it was legal, and i was too shocked/embarrass to ask the TD because this is a game i am not familiar with. anyway i had to go for the hit and i scratched after i made contact with an OB. lost a total of 16 actually 18 points. i won the game 100- 87 but i was pretty pissed about it especially after i was told later that the move was illegal.

The following week the TD told me that it could be done, it is considered a technically foul and if it happen twice in a match he would have lost the match as a penalty??? can anyone shine some light on this for me has this happen to anyone else before?

where he put me and how i made my third scratch...

Wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html)
START(
%AM0Z5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pr9[5%Wb1D6%Xr7[1%YM7Y1%Z`8C8
%[D6[2%\L5Y9%eA3a3
)END

Tom_In_Cincy
08-23-2004, 02:38 PM
In 14.1,

"Technicallity RULE?" from what rule book?

When you have ball in hand behind the headstring, your turn does not start until the cue ball passes the headsting.
No matter what you do behind the headstring, it doesn't count until the cue ball passes over the headstring.

It's in the BCA and World Pool Association rules.

9 Ball Girl
08-23-2004, 02:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> i was too shocked/embarrass to ask the TD because this is a game i am not familiar with. <hr /></blockquote>nAz, if you don't ask, you don't learn. Next time you match up with this dude, kick his a$$. And kick it good.

Steve Lipsky
08-23-2004, 02:45 PM
Yo Naz... how's it going?

You should have gone with your intuition here. If this were allowed after the second foul, wouldn't it be allowed after the first foul? Think about it - anytime you scratched once, your opponent could fairly easily put you on 3, just by doing the corner-hook over and over.

This would be egregiously ridiculous, lol.

- Steve

woody_968
08-23-2004, 03:01 PM
I am learning 14.1 so would be interested in what people have to say on this. I do recall someone saying that you cant "push" the cueball and freeze it on the tit, I think they said it was under unsportsman conduct, but I could be wrong. As far as placing it there and tapping it with the tip I dont know what the exact rule would be.

woody_968
08-23-2004, 03:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> In 14.1,

"Technicallity RULE?" from what rule book?

When you have ball in hand behind the headstring, your turn does not start until the cue ball passes the headsting.
No matter what you do behind the headstring, it doesn't count until the cue ball passes over the headstring.

It's in the BCA and World Pool Association rules. <hr /></blockquote>

Tom, so if I have cueball in hand behind the headstring and while addressing the ball I accidentally touch the cueball it is not a foul as long as the cueball doesnt cross the headstring?

Just want a little clarification here.

Thanks.

Fred Agnir
08-23-2004, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> I was playing a match of straight pool two weeks ago and i was on two scratches the last scratch the CB went into a pocket.
my opponent apologized to me for what he was about to do told me that if i was not so far a head he would not do this... (83-32) he took the CB and put it in the inside of the left pocket by the head rail, then he just tapped the tip of his cue against the CB.(putting him one one foul)
I thought that was illegal to do, i thought one had to send the CB up and down the table. (shoot pass the head string) he told me it was legal, and i was too shocked/embarrass to ask the TD because this is a game i am not familiar with. anyway i had to go for the hit and i scratched after i made contact with an OB. lost a total of 16 actually 18 points. i won the game 100- 87 but i was pretty pissed about it especially after i was told later that the move was illegal.

The following week the TD told me that it could be done,
<hr /></blockquote>The rule in question is 3.10 from the General Rules. I've boldfaced the pertinent text:

3.10 CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING
This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player’s scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string. If the incoming player inadvertently places the cue ball on or below the head string, the referee or the op-posing player must inform the shooting player of improper positioning of the cue ball before the shot is made. If the opposing player does not so inform the shooting player before the shot is made, the shot is considered legal. If the shooting player is informed of improper positioning, he must then reposition the cue ball. If a player positions the cue ball completely and obviously outside the kitchen and shoots the cue ball, it is a foul. (Refer to rule 2.21) When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player strikes the cue ball with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player’s hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand. Once the cue ball is in play per the above, it may not be impeded in any way by the player; to do so is to commit a foul. Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

---------------------------------

Tell the TD to buy a rule book.

Fred

Fasteddy7
08-23-2004, 03:23 PM
So by the wold rules i could mis-cue - catch it with my stick before it crosses the line pick it up move it where i want and shoot again. Not trying to be an a$$, just a little more clarification....Thanks Fast

thecardman
08-23-2004, 03:26 PM
Naz

First off, I have had a look at the World Standardised Rules (General Rules) on the WPA website (www.wpa-pool.com (http://www.wpa-pool.com)) and I cannot find anything other than it being a foul for not playing the shot correctly (could be mis-interpreting the ruling, though). If anyone can clarify this for me, it would be apprecaited - Mr Jewitt or Mr Fels, are you reading this thread?

However, let me get this bit straight. Did your opponent
(a) tap the side of his tip (and, therefore, the fuerrel (sp?)) against the cueball or
(b) did he tap the tip as if he was playing a shot?

If he did action (b), then it is allowed as a deliberate scratch and he would lose one point. With you being on 2 scratches, it would be up to you to get out of the corner hook and make contact with either the stack or the loose object ball.

But, if he performed action (a), then that is a serious deliberate foul and is penalised with a one-point penalty for the foul itself, plus a further 15-point penalty for the serious deliberate foul. ALSO you would have the option of playing the table as it lay or forcing your opponent to break the balls once again, following the opening break procedure.

Action (a) actually happened during the 2000 US Open match between Efren Reyes and Dallas West. Reyes tapped the side of his cue on the cueball. After a few minutes consulting the rules book, the referee came back to say that it was a serious deliberate foul and gave the above information.

Hope that helps. Always handy to have up your sleeve next time you play and someone tries to pull it off!

Best wishes

thecardman
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

woody_968
08-23-2004, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

---------------------------------

Tell the TD to buy a rule book.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred I may be a bit slow but I still dont see the exact answer.

"the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules." The game specific rules of 14.1 would be that the opposing player plays the cueball where it is (unless the cueball goes in the pocket).

I just want to make sure I am totally clear on this, thanks for the help.

woody_968
08-23-2004, 03:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote thecardman:</font><hr> Naz


Action (a) actually happened during the 2000 US Open match between Efren Reyes and Dallas West. Reyes tapped the side of his cue on the cueball. After a few minutes consulting the rules book, the referee came back to say that it was a serious deliberate foul and gave the above information.


thecardman
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I watched the match again just the other evening, helps to know the rules /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
08-23-2004, 04:14 PM
"not trying to be an a$$", but yes, that is correct.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-23-2004, 04:15 PM
That is correct Woody

Tom_In_Cincy
08-23-2004, 04:28 PM
Fred, your cut and paste seems a little different than mine. (notice the reference to headsting in BOLD)

from the wpa-pool website
3.10 CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING

This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player's scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string. If the incoming player inadvertently places the cue ball on or below the head string, the referee or the opposing player must inform the shooting player of improper positioning of the cue ball before the shot is made. If the opposing player does not so inform the shooting player before the shot is made, the shot is considered legal. If the shooting player is informed of improper positioning, he must then reposition the cue ball. If a player positions the cue ball completely and obviously outside the kitchen and shoots the cue ball, it is a foul. (Refer to Rule 2.21) When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player drives the cue ball past the head string by striking it with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player's hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand. Once the cue ball is in play per the above, it may not be impeded in any way by the player; to do so is to commit a foul. Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

woody_968
08-23-2004, 04:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Fred, your cut and paste seems a little different than mine. (notice the reference to headsting in BOLD)

from the wpa-pool website
3.10 CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING

&lt;clipped to save space&gt;Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.
<hr /></blockquote>

Tom, according to the above bold text wouldnt it still be a foul? I am just having a hard time accepting that I could strike the cueball with my tip and then saying its still my shot because it didnt cross the headstring.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-23-2004, 05:33 PM
Woody,

The shooting player's turn does not start until the cue ball passes the headsting.

Mike Shamos's "you be the ref" (in a 2002 IIRC mag) article posed this very question. From the 1999 rules to the 2000 rule there was the absence of the "must pass the headstring" phrase. If you were a ref (and up on these little tidbits of info) you could rule in favor of the intentional freeze ball in the kitchen.

woody_968
08-23-2004, 06:03 PM
Thanks Tom, I think the rule is very confusing the way it is worded, seems to contradict itself /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rod
08-23-2004, 06:25 PM
Playing games where it is defined CB in hand behind headstring or by specific game rules. With 14-1 and One P it has to cross the line otherwise the incomming player gets CB in hand behind the headstring. Short version. LOL

Rod

Bob_Jewett
08-23-2004, 06:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>he took the CB and put it in the inside of the left pocket by the head rail, then he just tapped the tip of his cue against the CB.(putting him one one foul)<hr /></blockquote>

If the player with ball in hand in balk (behind the headstring) takes a shot that fails to drive the cue ball out of balk (or contacts an object ball out of balk), the shot is foul and the cue ball remains in hand for the incoming player.

While the cue ball is in hand, any tip-to-ball contact is a shot, whether or not the cue ball is driven over the headstring.

If you tap the cue ball with your tip on warm-up strokes, and it has not gone over the line, and you intentionally touch the cue ball a second time by grabbing it with your hand, you are subject to an unsportsmanlike call. You set the cue ball in play with the tip contact. It is as much a foul as if you had missed hitting the one ball at nine ball, and the cue ball was coming around to break up the only troublesome cluster and you helpfully grab up the cue ball just before it breaks the cluster and hand the cue ball to your opponent.

Tom_In_Cincy
08-23-2004, 07:26 PM
Bob,

Now that you are the "Rules person" for the World Pool &amp; Billiard Association, are you going to see about getting some of the quesionable wording changed?

Thank you for your continued years of devotion to the high standards you've set with Billiards.

BCgirl
08-24-2004, 01:24 AM
I really feel for you, because I still remember how I felt when this little trick was pulled on me (and that's about 7 or 8 years ago). After my annoyance, I realised that I'd just been taught a valuable lesson. I think it's a legal and completed shot (although it's penalised as a normal 14:1 foul) under most rules. The APA rule does seem a little different, and a little daft IMO.

I have to say that your post has caused me to stop and think. Since this perverse little ploy was pulled on me, I've waited a long time to play 14:1 on a table with rail-grooves so deep that I could jail someone just like I was, and I haven't had the chance (don't play so much 14:1 these days). It never crossed my mind that someone could be so upset by it, so it's just as well it wasn't me that played you, because if I'd finally had the chance to do this in competition, I'd be dancing in uncontainable glee, and I'd never hear the end of it :-) Maybe I just have an evil streak that I need to rein in.

I hope you work this one out of your psyche way more quickly than I did :-)

BCgirl

Fred Agnir
08-24-2004, 06:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

---------------------------------

Tell the TD to buy a rule book.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred I may be a bit slow but I still dont see the exact answer.

"the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules." The game specific rules of 14.1 would be that the opposing player plays the cueball where it is (unless the cueball goes in the pocket).

I just want to make sure I am totally clear on this, thanks for the help.
<hr /></blockquote>The opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific rules. In 14.1 , a player with ball in hand is free to place the cueball anywhere behind the head string.

Fred

Run100
08-24-2004, 07:49 AM

nAz
08-24-2004, 09:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> i was too shocked/embarrass to ask the TD because this is a game i am not familiar with. <hr /></blockquote>nAz, if you don't ask, you don't learn. Next time you match up with this dude, kick his a$$. And kick it good. <hr /></blockquote>

naaa i lost my violent ways, i am now heading to the Vulcan path of enlightenment. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

nAz
08-24-2004, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Yo Naz... how's it going?

This would be egregiously ridiculous, lol.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I'm good Steve, how bouts yourself?

TD (Arthur) still says it can be done with just a penalty of a foul. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

BTW im 4-0 in the league /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

nAz
08-24-2004, 09:08 AM
.

Ok everyone from what i gather i should get BIN if someone does this again to me?

Naz~~ just got up and i'm still a little more slow then i usually am. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

9 Ball Girl
08-24-2004, 09:10 AM
I didn't mean to literally kick his a$$. I meant the next time you have to match up with again, kick his a$$ on the table. The vulcan path of enlightenment. You kill me.

Wendy&lt;---resistance is futile...

nAz
08-24-2004, 09:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCgirl:</font><hr> It never crossed my mind that someone could be so upset by it, so it's just as well it wasn't me that played you, because if I'd finally had the chance to do this in competition, I'd be dancing in uncontainable glee, and I'd never hear the end of it :-) Maybe I just have an evil streak that I need to rein in.

I hope you work this one out of your psyche way more quickly than I did :-)

BCgirl <hr /></blockquote>

Ahh I was not mad at the guy for doing it if it's part of the game it's part of the game then, i was really mad at myself for not getting it cleared up when it happen, everyone at the league that knows what happened agrees that it can not be done or should not be allowed. oh well play and learn . /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bob_Jewett
08-24-2004, 09:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Bob,
... are you going to see about getting some of the quesionable wording changed?<hr /></blockquote>
That's the plan. I hope to have a first draft ready for comments in the next two weeks.

Wally_in_Cincy
08-24-2004, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> .

Ok everyone from what i gather i should get BIN if someone does this again to me?<hr /></blockquote>

you should give him BIN - Ball in Noggin

Wally_in_Cincy
08-24-2004, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Bob,
... are you going to see about getting some of the quesionable wording changed?<hr /></blockquote>
That's the plan. I hope to have a first draft ready for comments in the next two weeks. <hr /></blockquote>

Are you going to post it online?

Eric.
08-24-2004, 01:54 PM
Hey BC,

I think it's an illegal move. Naz should have gotten ball in hand.

You better get that evil streak under control /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Eric

Bob_Jewett
08-24-2004, 02:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
Are you going to post (Revised Rules) online? <hr /></blockquote>
Yes.

Rod
08-24-2004, 03:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If the player with ball in hand in balk (behind the headstring) takes a shot that fails to drive the cue ball out of balk (or contacts an object ball out of balk), the shot is foul and the cue ball remains in hand for the incoming player.<hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
While the cue ball is in hand, any tip-to-ball contact is a shot, whether or not the cue ball is driven over the headstring.<hr /></blockquote>
Bob, Isn't the above all you need in the rules?

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">If you tap the cue ball with your tip on warm-up strokes,</font color> and it has not gone over the line, and you intentionally touch the cue ball a second time by grabbing it with your hand, you are subject to an unsportsmanlike call.<font color="red">You set the cue ball in play with the tip contact.</font color> It is as much a foul as if you had missed hitting the one ball at nine ball, and the cue ball was coming around to break up the only troublesome cluster and you helpfully grab up the cue ball just before it breaks the cluster and hand the cue ball to your opponent.<hr /></blockquote>

It seems to me to much wording when c/b contact with the tip is all you really need. In one place it says cue ball in play while just above it says your allowed one tap??? If it was me I'd get rid of game starts when the c/b crosses the line as your eluding to in your second paragraph. If there is a foul, intentional or not, the incomming player has the option of making the player shoot again. Not to mention there on one foul and point deduction if used in games that require such.

What am I missing? There's always something. LOL

Rod

Bob_Jewett
08-24-2004, 03:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>...
Bob, Isn't the above all you need in the rules?
...<hr /></blockquote>
Yes, I think so, but I was in explaining mode rather than rule quoting mode. One problem with the present rules is that they try to do too much explaining. Concise, clear, correct and complete is the goal.