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phil in sofla
09-03-2004, 04:50 PM
I heard a story that I wonder if anyone can confirm or provide details or context to?

Supposedly late in his life, the legendary posssibly greatest 9-ball player of all time (I guess, without question, greatest for his day), Luther 'Wimpy' Lassiter, told somebody that he had FINALLY learned THE SECRET to the break. But what it was went unknown, as far as I've heard, with some expressing a notion that inside English was what he was talking about.

Anyone know about this story? And what about using English as part of a 9-ball break?

I use about 3/4rs a tip of English, and then adjust the aim line on the cue ball over about an 8th of a ball to allow for squirt from the very hard hit of the break.

Bob_Jewett
09-03-2004, 05:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> Supposedly late in his life, the legendary posssibly greatest 9-ball player of all time (I guess, without question, greatest for his day), Luther 'Wimpy' Lassiter, told somebody that he had FINALLY learned THE SECRET to the break. <hr /></blockquote>
I think that how the balls are sitting in the rack has far more effect on how the break goes than what little change side spin can cause. Different tables rack differently, and all the tiny little gaps make huge, huge differences. Here's a test: line three object balls up in a frozen, straight line, and see how much you can make the back ball move to the side with side spin on the cue ball.

I think you're far better off hitting the cue ball right in the center, which gets maximum power into the rack. Any spin you put on the cue ball takes speed off the cue ball.

I suspect that Lassiter was talking about bringing the cue ball off the cushion and back through the rack area to hit the nine ball, which is still close to its spot in the rack. He was widely reported to use this to make the nine. Curiously, he is also on record as supporting "spot all balls made on the break." I guess it was a case of, "if that's the way the Romans want to be, beat them at their own game."

Rod
09-03-2004, 05:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I use about 3/4rs a tip of English, and then adjust the aim line on the cue ball over about an 8th of a ball to allow for squirt from the very hard hit of the break.

<hr /></blockquote>

In general, where does the c/b go? I miss-hit a rack once and made three balls I believe. I also had great shape on the one. It went something like this -START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%Pg7T4
%UC9M2%VK0C5%WP0O5%Xh7T5%YK4D4%ZO5O0%[L3[4%\C2N2%]W5S5%^L7[5
%eA9a1
)END

After I run out I decided to break like that again except on purpose. I had fair results but this time I had to push out. I tried that on a later date practicing and rarely did I ever get a decent shot, let alone make balls. At any rate, at that speed english has next to no effect. I just used it as a vehicle to move the c/b. If not for that, why use it?

The game is variables in constant change, nothing is ever quite the same. If there truly is a secret on the break, other than timing and a square hit, I'm all ears.

phil in sofla
09-04-2004, 04:02 PM
When I'm hitting that break well, I am hitting the 1 very full, so the cue ball backs up and sits at mid-table.

My theory is that the spinning cue ball puts spin on the one and the balls back of it are thrown more than you'd think, kind of the way a spinning bowling ball throws the pins around.

phil in sofla
09-04-2004, 04:07 PM
I think the effect might be more than you think, Bob. A friend of mine came from S. Carolina, where they play a lot of 6 ball, and he showed me spin breaks designed to put the extra 'money' balls, those just behind the one, in on the break, cross side.

Practicing that, it seem that one certainly can get the balls behind the one to do that cross side action, which is probably dependent on spin from the one. Not that they go all the time, or most of the time, but they do seem to generally take that line, giving a chance at pocketing them. I once won a hill-hill match, being given the called 8, by using that break and calling the cross side pocket. (Note, the spin for that is a lot more than what I described).

Sid_Vicious
09-04-2004, 04:31 PM
"I miss-hit a rack once and made three balls I believe."

Funny how that happens sometimes isn't it. Makes you think that somebody could manufacture that "miss" and gain advantage, but more than likely, there were gaps in the rack, which throws all consistency for the most part out of the window...sid~~~miss-broke many times and made balls, hit like a ton and came up dry, go figure

cueball1950
09-04-2004, 09:03 PM
i don't know if this means anything but alot of the old timers i knew always claimed the secret to their good break was the wrist action. Andy "HARPO" Bakerian and Paul "TURK" Vartigan both claimed the break was in the wrist. #####leonard knows both men and racked for Harpo at 1 time for a couple of hours and i believe he told me Harpo averaged above 2 balls on every break...Is that right Mr Leonard.....................................mike

#### leonard
09-05-2004, 01:43 PM
Andy was the greatest breaker of the balls I ever saw. His record was all nine in on the break once and 7 of 9 twice. He was a featherweight in size and he didn't do any violent body movement to hit the cueball. It sounded like a bomb going off when he hit the cueball. I racked three hours to see if I could learn his secret. He had one but what it was I didn't figure it out. ####

Rod
09-05-2004, 02:10 PM
You know I think people think there is always a secret. Remember Ben Hogan's secret to the golf swing? Well there really wasn't one. Other than long hard hours perfecting a swing that worked for him.

I've thought about this thread and secrets, if any. LOL If we talk about speed and accuracy that comes with it, I have one thought. When most people break they try to use way to much muscle. It has the effect of slowing down rather than speed up the c/b. Try to "hit as hard as you want" but it likely will slow down, not to mention accuracy. Leonard I think your observation of Andy enforces this to some degree.

I have my thoughts to obtain speed with little effort and it has worked well for me over the years. I might add that later should I choose to go there. Bottom line is within ourself lies the answer. Some are just naturally going to creat a lot of speed and some never will. Speed isn't the bottom line of course, but it sure helps.

Rod

wolfdancer
09-05-2004, 11:47 PM
Rod, according to David Leadbetter "Fundamentals of Hogan..($27.50) ", Hogan's secret was to cup his left wrist at the top of his backswing, which produced a fade....Hogan's early problems were from hooking the ball. Since most of us are fighting a slice, his secret is about as useful as adding english on your break stroke.
I've been breaking better then ever lately....my secrets:
1. a one piece Dufferin,19 oz ebony cue
2. brand new Super Aramith balls
3. my new table
4. I grit my teeth just as I stroke...an old pool hustler, and professional pickpocket taught this to me when I first started playing. Never worked until I got the new table and balls...but I'm sure it's the "key"

Rod
09-06-2004, 01:10 AM
That's right Jack and I think he changed his swing plane slightly. He use to get furious when a hook got him in trouble. At any rate it wasn't really a secret. They just didn't analize the swing near as well as now, plus they didn't have modern equipment.

Wnat a good stroke, use computer graphics. LOL Poor pool player can't afford such, it's not like they win several hundred thousand for a tourney. Besides it's all timing as far as the break goes. Well that's the short of it.

Rod

bigbro6060
09-07-2004, 01:01 AM
the only secret to the break is

"Grip it and Rip it"

Mike
09-07-2004, 04:28 PM
I think that in a 9-ball session the table developes a bias as the rack settles into the cloth from constant racking. It becomes easier to rack the balls because they freeze easier. Because of this it's possible to make the 9 ball move to either the right or left front pocket.

An old timer long ago show me how to break to do this. Place the cue about 1 inch either to the left or right of the spot. If left use 5 o'clock English and if on the right side use 7 o'clock English hitting the one ball on the nose.

Playing a long session many years ago I made the 9 ball 3 times in a row, broke and ran out, and then made it 2 more times all in the same pocket using this break (5 out of 6 straight breaks). I have always used this break and generally make something.

Set it up and give it a try and see what you think.

Bob_Jewett
09-07-2004, 04:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mike:</font><hr>...
An old timer long ago show me how to break to do this. Place the cue about 1 inch either to the left or right of the spot. If left use 5 o'clock English and if on the right side use 7 o'clock English hitting the one ball on the nose.
... I have always used this break and generally make something<hr /></blockquote>
Hi Mike,

Have you ever tried this with a Sardo rack? They give racks that are notorious for no motion on the nine ball, and a way to get the nine moving would give the breaker a real advantage.

Mike
09-08-2004, 04:14 PM
Bob, no I have not had an opportunity with the Sardo rack. At this stage in my game I play mostly one-pocket and not much 9 ball anymore. Maybe one of our regular 9 ballers will try it out and give us a report.

With your many travel and experiences with pool have you ever heard of or tried this method of breaking?

Bob_Jewett
09-09-2004, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mike:</font><hr> With your many travel and experiences with pool have you ever heard of or tried this method of breaking (some side from near the center of the table) ?<hr /></blockquote>
Nope. But I would think that when they were restricting the pro nine ball players to "the box" (an area near the head spot for the cue ball) that one of them would have come up with that technique if it worked well. To the best of my knowledge, no top player willingly breaks nine ball from near the head spot.

SnakebyteXX
09-10-2004, 07:55 AM
I've seen 'The Dutchess of Doom' sink the one ball in the side pocket on the break over and over again. Her method may be common knowledge to most but not to me. How is this done?

Snake

Bob_Jewett
09-10-2004, 11:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SnakebyteXX:</font><hr> I've seen 'The Dutchess of Doom' sink the one ball in the side pocket on the break over and over again. Her method may be common knowledge to most but not to me. How is this done?<hr /></blockquote>
It depends on exactly how the balls are racked. The standard method I know is to play the shot as if you are cutting the one ball into the corner, and use some follow on the cue ball. The normal kiss line will take the one ball to a point somewhat below the side pocket, and follow on the cue ball and/or the weight of a solid rack are needed to bring it up to the side.

If you want to experiment with the shot, make sure the rack is the same every time. This may mean tapping balls or finding a Sardo.

LivinGr8
09-10-2004, 03:16 PM
Was the cue ball placed in the same place for each break? Please explain the english and force (scale of 1 to 10, 5 being medium force and 10 being extremely hard force applied.)

"Your secret is safe w/ me." /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

#### leonard
09-11-2004, 01:07 PM
It looked like he hit with a 5, he held the cue with his last two fingers, his thumb and first two fngers pointed to the floor not even holding the cue. He hit the cueball with a bang and the sound created was loud but no body movement. The balls picked up speed off of the rails far beyond the the force of his stroke seemed to generate.

It was an enjoyable three hours of racking balls. The most he put in on the break was 6 balls with 2/3 on most breaks. I don't think he failed to pocket a ball on the break.

It was 4 or 5 years since he had hit any poolballs. He just needed 5 minutes to warm up.####