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Sid_Vicious
09-09-2004, 04:32 PM
Here is the deal: I have a raw beginner-type student who is left eye dominent and shoots right handed, she shoots first the shot below fine, well in fact even if you placed balls along the long rail for cuts down the long rail, hits those ok even with varying stroke speeds as well, AS LONG as the CB is seperated by 3-4 feet or more from the OB. But look at the second diagram, I'll be damned if I know what to do to correct an inability she has when there is only a foot or less, to miss what I'd call winning, can't miss shots like this 1 ball in the second diagram. I'm either missing an aiming tool, or else the left eye dominent thing up close is really a problem.


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%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PV7K5%UL0X7%VV5L1%W D9[1%XI6Y8
)END



START(
%AJ3Y6%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PM1W1%UL0X7%VV5L1%W G0[3%XI6Y8
)END

Maybe I personally make an adjustment automatically when I hit this simple shot and take it for granted, but I need someone's concept to find out what exactly to tell my student. HELP! sid~~~feels really inept for asking y'all what may be a basic fundamental, but has to know the answer

woody_968
09-09-2004, 05:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> sid~~~feels really inept for asking y'all what may be a basic fundamental, but has to know the answer
<hr /></blockquote>

No reason to feal inept, too bad more people dont ask for oppinions when they are having trouble finding an answer /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

IMO one thing to look for is how far down she is on the cue. If she tends to normally get "low" on the cue and continues to do so when the balls are close together this can sometimes make sighting the shot a bit of a challenge.

If this is the case you might have her try standing just a little more upright for these close shots and see if it makes a difference. If it doesnt try something else /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The left I dominance could play a roll in it. Not so much they I think her left I must be over the cue, but she must understand the different views which ever way she plays.

If she plays with her left eye over the cue, when looking at balls in a distance her periferal vision will see two cues. The cue on the right would be the one to aim with and she may be doing this instinctivly. But as the OB gets closer to the cueball this "double vision" seems to lessen, or the two cues get closer together. This little variance could be thowing her off a bit.

This may be alot of info to try to explain to a relatively new player and by no means would you want to overload her brain, just a couple of suggestions for you to look for.

Of course I could be wayyyyyy off base here, so take it for what its worth /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Leviathan
09-09-2004, 09:41 PM
'Lo, Sid. A couple of ideas from a non-teacher who can't make two balls:

If your student makes a high percentage of her long cut shots, then her aiming technique probably isn't the problem--unless she uses very different aiming techniques for shots of different lengths.

I sometimes experience a target-attraction effect when I aim short cut shots. I aim while I'm up, but when I get down I see the ob looming like a damn beach ball at the edge of my field of view and start shifting my aim toward its center. Maybe your student is doing this. If she is, then it might help her to make a conscious effort to focus on the aim point and ignore the mass of the ob when she practices short cut shots.

I'd try to avoid giving any beginner the idea that his or her cross-dominance (if that's the right term) was going to be a problem.

AS

Leviathan
09-10-2004, 04:37 AM
Also, I think it's very helpful to align your cue toward the aim point carefully while you're still fairly upright and have a good overhead view of the angles.

AS

Bob_Jewett
09-10-2004, 10:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Here is the deal: I have a raw beginner-type student who is left eye dominent ..., AS LONG as the CB is seperated by 3-4 feet or more from the OB. <hr /></blockquote>
There are several techniques to try to deal with broken perception. Have her line up on a shot with the wrong line -- you should be able to see whether she has the right line or not -- and then put a piece of paper so that the vision from one eye is blocked. Which eye? Cover the eye that will make her say, "Good Lord, was my stick pointing there!?!" If she has a vision problem like this, it is probably because her head is in the wrong place.

You also need to make sure her stroke is straight.

Scott Lee
09-11-2004, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>
You also need to make sure her stroke is straight. <hr /></blockquote>

sid...here's an easy way to check this: place a piece of chalk on top of the rail, on the seam between the rail cloth and the wood. Have her stroke through the piece of chalk, follow through, and see where her cue is pointing. If it's not right on the seam, she is likely doing something that is causing her to twist the cue (tight grip is a likely suspect), or she doesn't know what a smooth straight swing is. Either way, you can help her correct this.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com (http://www.poolknowledge.com)

Leviathan
09-12-2004, 06:16 AM
Hiya, Scott: The way I read Sid's post, this person is making long cut shots ok but hitting short cut shots too full. If that's what's happening, I doubt that a crooked stroke is the problem. A straight stroke is gonna be even more critical on a long shot than on a short one, isn't it? It would be interesting to know for sure whether Sid's student is hitting too full both on short cuts to the right and on short cuts to the left.

AS

Sid_Vicious
09-12-2004, 06:49 AM
This is the puzzlement I have, she's set balls all along the rail around the table and drilled cuts down the rail, a personal determination of hers, and a drill I wasn't telling her to do at her level at the time but I'll be damned if she didn't take to hitting those rail runs on her own, AND with varying speeds. It just doesn't make sense why I can set up a game winning whot with the OB 6-8 inches from the corner, shorten the CB/OB distance to one foot and the OB is almost always hit fat into the rail ahead of the pocket.

All said, this person has leaped and bounded in talent /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gifcompared to 3 weeks ago, yet this gimme win is not happening when she's short on contact travel distance. She isn't always straight in her stroke(me neither for that matter) but the Kinnister #1 shot was one of her first drills and except for CB replacement on top of the vacant OB position, she hits the stroke very well after a little time. I'm just missing what's wrong with the short cuts and it's bothering the heck out of me. I'm going to video tape the shot next time to see if I can dissect the whole thing, but something tells me it's a perception flaw in what she sees during aim. In fact maybe the aiming of the tip through the CB at the OB point is the thing. More ideas???sid

Bob_Jewett
09-12-2004, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr>It would be interesting to know for sure whether Sid's student is hitting too full both on short cuts to the right and on short cuts to the left. <hr /></blockquote>
I think this is a critical point, and maybe Sid hasn't looked into it. For consistent aiming problems, there are several cases you need to look at to answer the questions:

Is the hit always too full?

Is the hit always too much to one side?

Is there consistent unintended spin on the cue ball?

Is shooting along the rail (arm fully out over the table) different from playing where the table is not against the hip?

Is the error towards side pockets different from shots towards corner pockets?

Are shots along the rail towards corners different from shots from the spot (for example) towards the corners?

What fundamental errors in mechanics is the student making?

Instruction is often a matter of troubleshooting, and you need to know how to look at the symptoms to begin to understand the problem.

Leviathan
09-13-2004, 07:37 AM
Let me throw out a couple of ideas about procedure, Sid.

I wonder whether it would be helpful if you'd just watch your student shoot all kinds of short cut shots for a half hour. You could have her cut some to the right, some to the left, some into the corner pockets, some into the side pockets. I wouldn't have her shoot exactly the same shot over and over; you're not supervising a drill, you're looking for tendencies like the ones Bob describes. These tendencies can help you understand why your student misses. For example, if your student hits too full when cutting to the right and too thin when cutting to the left, she may be closing her stance too far as she settles into position to shoot. If you see that she's doing this, you can help her make an appropriate correction.

Suppose your student tends to hit all kinds of short cut shots too full and you don't see a mechanical problem that explains this. First, you might check something pretty basic: does she know where the ob should enter the pocket? She may be TRYING to hit the damn rail!

If that isn't the problem, what about this? On any cut shot, the line from the center of the cb to the center of the ob and the line from the center of the cb to the aim point form an angle, right? This angle increases if you move the cb closer to the ob. Your student may not understand this, or she may understand it and still be reluctant to shift her aim away from the ob as the distance between the cb and ob decreases. Either way, she may simply be aiming at the wrong spot, and you can teach her a procedure for finding the right aim point and shooting straight at it.

Just ideas, Sid--you know way more about this stuff than I do! I'm afraid my earlier replies to your post didn't offer practical suggestions. Hope this is more useful.

Good luck,
AS

Ross
09-13-2004, 09:34 AM
Sid, I think Bob J. and others have given you some very good advice on diagnosing the problem. Try the eye covering routine, and then check whether the error is:
a. always too full
b. happens for cuts right and left
c. is related to whether her hip is scrunched up against the table affecting her setup
etc.

Two other possibilities. She is hitting the close-up shot softer and that causes more ob throw. Tell her that for very soft cut shots, you have to aim a little thinner than you expect because of this effect. She could also use a little draw on the cb - that tends to reduce the amount of throw. Final possibility- you are calling these game winner shots - these aren't pressure shots are they? If they are, the pressure may be the cause. When game winning cut shots are missed they tend to be undercut because of an unconscious swerve in the stroke toward "safety" (hitting the ball fuller).

One final thought. Have you told or reminded her to concentrate on hitting the ob into the pocket facing, not the back of the pocket?

Good luck with it. With her obvious energy for the game and your willingness to try anything to help her, I think you guys will be a pretty good partnership.

LivinGr8
09-13-2004, 10:43 AM
My son-in-law, a few years ago, faced a problem with his eyes that was going to prevent him from renewing his CDL. After getting the answer from several doctors that an operation was his only answer, went to a homapathic eye therapist. One of the main benefits that he recieved was this. He had to train one eye to be stronger. He did this by using a small ball with 2 holes in it. The ball slid along 2 strings. He would focus on the ball at approximately 4 feet and slide the ball up to the point where he could no longer focus (approx. 1 ft.). He would do this twice or three times a day for 10 - 15 minutes.
You might check around and see if this exercise would help to strengthen the weaker eye muscle to possibly improve shooting ability.
Just a thought that might be helpful. Good Luck! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Deeman2
09-13-2004, 10:46 AM
Livingr8:

Where are you in east Texas? I have just been excommicated to East Texas myself (Longview). /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Deeman

LivinGr8
09-17-2004, 05:11 PM
Hey Deeman2,
Sorry it took so long to reply! I hope to be able to make it to PettyPoint tomorrow. I may bring a friend with me. SPetty said "bring him too". We're in Jacksonville and play approx. 3 miles out of town at a nice hall called Piney Point Billiards. I hope to get to see you tomorrow and we'll "Do it, lunger".
Later Gater