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recoveryjones
09-09-2004, 09:22 PM
I'm a pool practice junkie as I generally practice for 6 hours every Friday and Saturday as my local pool hall lets me do so for $15. I also practice after work for two hours 2-4 times per week.

I was thinking of trying "reference shot" practising as reccomended by Bert Kinisters "60 minute workout" video and also Don Hennings, "The Pro Book" video series and book.

In Bert's video he suggests shooting 25 reference shots and memorizing them by(number) name.Most of the shots require you to end up in the centre of the table( or at least pass through the center) after potting a ball.Speed control is accentuated.

Don Henning reccomends 16 major shots to memorize and a total of 130 shots related( alternating potting the object ball to the left and right) to those 16. His shots deal with posistion, speed control shots, banks, kicks and safties.Like Kinister all his reference shots have the cue ball heading down a line that crosses through the center of the table.Following these paths to aquire position will help one avoid the dreaded scratch.

Apparently by learning these "reference shots", you will substancially speed up your learning curve, enabling you to learn much much faster than you would just randomly hitting balls in an infinite amount of varations.They key is naming your shots (by number) while you shoot them.When these shots come up in games you will know them by number. Simuliar varations are apparently recognizable when the balls don't line up exactly (like in practice) like in real game situations and the appropriate compensations are easy(easier) to adjust to with the knowledge aquired in practice.

Has anyone trained using Kinisters or Hennings afformentioned reference shots?
What were the results? RJ


.......RJ will appreciate any comments, however,is committed to go on a mission to memorize Kinisters and Hennings shots by number.

Cueless Joey
09-09-2004, 09:38 PM
My shot number one.
START(
%Ah7Z7%Bi6D2%CJ5O4%DL7N1%Ed0D1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PO1V7%Wf9[2%XP1W0%Yg2D9%Zg4Z5
)END
WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)
I shoot this a few times before playing. You can't cheat on this one. It must be hit with a good hair below center hit and a very good follow through.
I showed this shot to Gerald here when he was having aligning problems a few weeks back.
You have to line up for this shot really intently.

SPetty
09-09-2004, 09:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>...Don Hennings ...Don Henning<hr /></blockquote>Or maybe Bob Henning? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Are you thinking of The Eagles Don Henley?

woody_968
09-09-2004, 10:08 PM
I have the 60min workout, and while I havent practiced it the way I should I do believe it would help if I did /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I have been working on other drills, but am planning on starting to go through those shots in the near future.

recoveryjones
09-09-2004, 11:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>...Don Hennings ...Don Henning<hr /></blockquote>Or maybe Bob Henning? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Are you thinking of The Eagles Don Henley?
<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the correction.I've been reading Bob(not Don) Hennings "Pro Book" off and on for 2 weeks now and I still could'nt remember his first name.

Fat chance I'm going to remember his 130 reference shots....LOL...RJ

Perk
09-10-2004, 08:19 AM
I enjoyed the Bob Hennings book and made some copies of the 16 shots described. Off the top of my head I thought there were more. I definately think they can help you as a practice routine. Last fall I worked on 3 particular shots alot, (didnt remember the number), but now when that shot comes up in a rack, its a no brainer. I relate it to that book and the practice. I can see where if you grilled the shot numbers into your head and practiced, it would help complete your game. As I recall, the shots were catagorized by their types: kicks, position, banks, etc.

I would recommend it. Friends of mine have considered going in and getting the video version. Has anyone viewed these?

A_LOTA_NOTA
09-10-2004, 01:21 PM
I have the Book &amp; the videoís. I got the book first but am more of a visual person &amp; I thought the videos would complement the book. The video is a lot like the Kinister videos. Bob will shoot a shot &amp; then tell you he will be right back with the next one, I guess so he can practice it a few times before they record it I donít know. So anyway Bob has a paper plate he puts on the table for his CB to stop on. He will try the shot a few times missing the paper plate every time &amp; finally just say you get the idea &amp; moves on the next shot.

recoveryjones
09-10-2004, 07:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote A_LOTA_NOTA:</font><hr> I have the Book &amp; the videoís. I got the book first but am more of a visual person &amp; I thought the videos would complement the book. The video is a lot like the Kinister videos. Bob will shoot a shot &amp; then tell you he will be right back with the next one, I guess so he can practice it a few times before they record it I donít know. So anyway Bob has a paper plate he puts on the table for his CB to stop on. He will try the shot a few times missing the paper plate every time &amp; finally just say you get the idea &amp; moves on the next shot. <hr /></blockquote>

Yikes!!! If Bob Henning can't even do the drills in his own book, I wonder what chance I'll have? Did you try the shots? RJ

Rod
09-10-2004, 08:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You can't cheat on this one. It must be hit with a good hair below center hit and a very good follow through.
<hr /></blockquote>
Why can't you cheat? A good hair. LOL What is a good hair?
Actually the shot as diagramed, if you use very much low your hooked behind the 5. So I assume you shoot it firm with a tiny bit of low. It might be just a drill but IMO there is any easier way to get straight in on the 2. Shoot it with low inside. The inside makes a sharper angle and speeds up the c/b so you don't have to shoot as hard. The low holds the line per-say. The two amounts of english cancel each other out so the c/b tends to go straight across table, with less speed as I mentioned.

Without shooting this exact shot I might even favor a split hair before the o/b. Meaning a tiny bit of rail first. This shot is disaster if you hit the o/b heavy at all because it's so straight in for the angle to go across table.

Try that you'll see what I mean. Another way that could be part of your drill is just shoot it with top inside to arrive at the same place. Once again if you hit it fat (to much o/b it won't work. Where you hit the o/b, even if you do make it, makes a big difference where whitey goes. Just thought you might like different versions of the same shot. Most can't use low or top inside with a high degree of acurracy but it's deadly in some situations. It's one of my favorites.

Rod

Rod
09-10-2004, 08:34 PM
What kind of a book writer/teacher can't do their own shots. To me that says little for the author as a pool player/instructor. But you guys go ahead, buy something the teacher can't do. To me that leaves some creditability issues. I'd think twice about buying a tape for someone full of hot air. I never have bought anys tapes BTW. If your going to teach them, execute! I'd hate to show the instructor what he's doing wrong. LOL

Rod

recoveryjones
09-10-2004, 09:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> What kind of a book writer/teacher can't do their own shots. To me that says little for the author as a pool player/instructor. But you guys go ahead, buy something the teacher can't do. To me that leaves some creditability issues. I'd think twice about buying a tape for someone full of hot air. I never have bought anys tapes BTW. If your going to teach them, execute! I'd hate to show the instructor what he's doing wrong. LOL

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

LOL...Well at least Bob Henning's honest.I've watched Bert Kinister videos where he NEVER misses a shot the whole time.On the speed control drills he lands the cue ball right on the center hole of the target paper every single time. Get someone to edit a video of me and voila, I'll be a shark just like Bert.RJ

Cueless Joey
09-10-2004, 09:24 PM
Bert did but that was a 6 foot table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

recoveryjones
09-10-2004, 10:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Bert did but that was a 6 foot table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Apparently Bert's first 15 or so videos were shot on that mini table.On his next 35 videos he goes to nine foot.He does have a support beam that gets in the way the odd time.RJ

Rod
09-10-2004, 11:53 PM
BUT, If you teach, you know like real live people, where does that put you? If I show someone something it needs to be quick. I sure as hell don't want 10 shots to make my point. It needs to be done first try but that doesn't always happen. Second try (because you learn quick from a slight error your aware of) and last and should be least a third time. If you don't get there then it is a bit beyond your ability. In which case you shouldn't be teaching it because you don't know how to explain the shot much less execute.

That leads to the help fans out there that say do this. They don't know what it really means, it's just the way they do it. What the hell does follow through mean? It could mean force the cue to go farther through the c/b. Well in fact it does mean that literally. But it doesn't tell you how to get there. A good instructor tells you how to arrive at that point and it isn't forcing the cue. It happens naturally, if it's done right from the beginning. Thats what an instructor is all about, explaining to people how to deliver a good stroke.

This subject is endless to a degree but what it takes is knowing how to deliver a stroke to get the desired effect for that particular shot. It might have to to with follow through to get the desired effect, but it doesn't have to be that way. It could be a slightly different aim point which in turn will change speed. Small differences in aim, where you hold the cue, speed of stroke can make or break a shot. Sure you can have a constant point in your grip/bridge length but wouldn't you rather be aware of variables that can make the game easier?

Lets talk about follow through. You have this shot, which I didn't invent but I happen to like it. You think your follow thru is great, try this. All you have to do is make the one in the side. I'll make it easy, the one and 5 are a tad over a ball width apart. If you don't get there it is ok many don't and there is a reason. Shoot directly through the c/b towards and make the one. If you happen not to get there it's ok. It just tells you how far your follow through is. Some people think its real long. It can be but for most follow through is a lost leader. They seem to think it's huge when it isn't. The cue slows down big time after contact so depending on the release and how you got there makes a big difference.

OH, we were talking about Bert and bob weren't we?

Stretch
09-11-2004, 05:56 AM
Reference shots are a great concept. They train ball control, speed and spin. But they are a little like banking systems, and aiming systems to the extent that ones broken down and analized to death and practiced over and over again your body gets a feel for them to the point that there is realy nothing to conciously deliberate about ie. this is shot #1,#2, or #376! On bank shots for instance, it dosn't take a whole lot of thought to determine where and how i need to hit the ob to bank it and get shape. It all boils down to feel and confidence.

The real advantage to learning all these reference shots is not so much that they give you some magical "system". Rather they will expose some weakness in your cb control whether it's useing top, bottom, side, or your stroke. Then you can isolate that and work on it till your confident enough to add it to your war bag of shots.

When it's game time, you can't be thinking of systems. That is for the practice table. It's time to play, and that's a whole other mindset. It's the "dance" not the "steps". St

poolguy123
09-13-2004, 05:04 PM
RE: Berts shots landing on the paper every time.

Does anyone think these tapes are really edited? I've watched as close as I can and I can see no evidence of that. And what does it matter what size the table is? That 4" spot is hard to hit no matter how far you have rolled the cueball.

Anyway-I think Berts tapes are great- pinpoint position, while not always possible by me is always a worthy goal.