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highsea
09-10-2004, 01:40 PM
CBS ran a Bush-bash last wednesday, featuring some alleged documents from Bush's ANG days. The supposed memos were "authenticated" by CBS, but they will not divulge who authenticated them, or where they came from.

Typography experts have raised some interesting questions. The memos were apparently written on a modern word processor, because they have proportional fonts and superscripts, something the Military would not have had in 1972.

In addition, the letterheads and language don't match military standards. The officer whose "personal file" these supposedly came out of is conveniently dead, but his widow calls the memos a "farce".

[ QUOTE ]
The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.

But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.

"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.

"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising.<hr /></blockquote>
http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200409\POL 20040909d.html

[ QUOTE ]
Strange military lingo

Former military officers and others with knowledge of military correspondence contacted CNSNews.com Thursday to present their own critique. Among the problems they cited:

* The documents are not on a standard letterhead. Instead, they feature a typewritten and centered address with a post office box rather than an actual street address of the squadron. The address is P.O. Box 34567, which coincidentally includes five consecutive numbers.

* Dates in the letters - "04 May 1972" and "14 May, 1972" - are inconsistent and do not follow military form. The military prefers the following example, according to ex-officers: 4 May 72. It doesn't include a zero preceding the date or a comma following the month.

* The lines "MEMORANDUM FOR:" and "SUBJECT:" that begin the May 4, 1972, document, weren't officially used in the 1970s. According to one retired military officer, the correct format then was most likely "REPLY TO ATTN OF:" then "SUBJECT:" and finally "TO:" preceding the text of the message.

* Bush's name was listed in the memo as "1st Lt. George W. Bush." But other military documents, including those posted on Sen. John Kerry's website use a different format. Bush's name would have likely appeared as "1LT Bush, GW" or "1LT G Bush."

* There shouldn't be disparities in the May 4, 1972, letter such as, "111 F.I.S." and "111th F.I.S.," according to ex-military officers. Also, the acronym "F.I.S.," which stands for Fighter Intercept Squadron, shouldn't have included periods.

* The signature block with Killian's name lists his rank as "Lt. Colonel," when in reality most military commanders abbreviated that title as "LTC" or "Lt. Col.," according to retired officers. The signature block also includes the word "Commander" when "Commanding" was the preferred reference.

Gary Killian told the AP the documents didn't come from his family, even though an article on the CBS News website said they were retrieved from Jerry Killian's "personal file."
<hr /></blockquote>
http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200409\POL 20040910b.html

I think CBS has some explaining to do. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

-CM

eg8r
09-10-2004, 02:07 PM
From an interview (http://www.drudgereport.com/cbsd2.htm) with Rather... [ QUOTE ]
QUESTION: Apology or any kind of retraction or...

RATHER: Not even discussed, nor should it be. I want to make clear to you, I want to make clear to you if I have not made clear to you, that this story is true, and that more important questions than how we got the story, which is where those who don't like the story like to put the emphasis, the more important question is what are the answers to the questions raised in the story, which I just gave you earlier.
<hr /></blockquote> LOL, this is funny, he does not want to tell the American public where he got the story, he does not even think that is important, but rather the questions brought on by the story.

So, what he is saying is, I don't care if we lied about everything...When are you going to answer the lies we said about you.

I just took a quick look at CNN and I don't see anything about this on the main page. Hmmmm, what did CNN look like when the liberals said Bush lied?

eg8r

highsea
09-10-2004, 02:18 PM
The Kerry camp is trying to accuse Karl Rove! Lol, that takes some real imagination. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif[ QUOTE ]
The Democrats had nothing to do with the questionable Bush-National Guard documents which CNSNews.com broke on Thursday, said Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe, who suggested Friday that White House adviser Karl Rove may be the culprit, the Washington Times reports. "I can unequivocally say that no one involved here at the Democratic National Committee had anything at all to do with any of those documents. If I were an aspiring young journalist, I think I would ask Karl Rove that question," Mr. McAuliffe said.<hr /></blockquote>
-CM

eg8r
09-10-2004, 02:29 PM
With the integrity of the documents in question, CBS is doing an investigation, and Edwards still wants Bush to answer them... web page (http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040910/ELECTIONS/209100325) [ QUOTE ]
NASHUA - President Bush should have to explain newly released records that reveal his former Texas National Guard superior was asked to “sugar coat” performance records after finding Bush failed standards to be a trained pilot, Sen. John Edwards said Thursday.

“I think they are reasonable and legitimate questions the White House ought to answer,” Edwards said during an interview with The Telegraph.
<hr /></blockquote> It appears Edwards is in agreement with Rather and neither of the are worried about integrity, they just want Bush to answer the lies told about him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Why isn't CNN reporting on this? Is it not big news when a national media outlet is doctoring documents to lie about the President and then reporting on them as fact?

What about the integrity of VP hopeful Edwards? He does not care whether the documents are lies or not, he just wants some answers. This is like NewsMax posting an article saying Edwards was raping dogs and demanding Edwards to answer the article? It is a lie, but he should answer it anyways.

eg8r

highsea
09-10-2004, 02:45 PM
Part of that CBS story was an interview with Ben Barnes. Today he is vice chair of the Kerry campaign, but he is a former Lt. Governor of Texas. Barnes has said that as Lt. Governor, he "pulled some strings" to get Bush and others into the ANG.

Now, ignoring that Texas was a hugely democratic state, and the Bush's didn't really have much in the way of political clout back then, or the highly questionable ethics of using his political position to do such favors, there's still one little problem.

Bush joined the ANG in 1968, and Barnes didn't become Lt. Gov. until 1969. Oops! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

-CM

crawdaddio
09-10-2004, 03:03 PM
Didn't these documents come from the pentagon?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/politics/09guard.html?pagewanted=2&amp;hp

[ QUOTE ]
he events unfolded a day after the Pentagon, prompted by a lawsuit filed by The Associated Press, released a series of records on Mr. Bush's service, even though the White House had said this year that it had released all the records. <hr /></blockquote>


It's funny to me that you guys can sling mud left and right towards Kerry's military service, but when new evidence comes out that Bush may have taken the easy way out as well, you just CAN'T believe it.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/08/opinion/08kristof.html

[ QUOTE ]
"The record clearly and convincingly proves he did not fulfill the obligations he incurred when he enlisted in the Air National Guard," writes Gerald Lechliter, a retired Army colonel who has made the most meticulous examination I've seen of Mr. Bush's records (I've posted the full 32-page analysis here). Mr. Lechliter adds that Mr. Bush received unauthorized or fraudulent payments that breached National Guard rules, according to the documents that the White House itself released. <hr /></blockquote>

Here's the link to the report he refers to:

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/opinion/lechliter.pdf

~DC

highsea
09-10-2004, 03:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr> Didn't these documents come from the pentagon? <hr /></blockquote>The White House got them from CBS after the story aired. Then they released copies to the rest of the media.

They were not DOD files.

-CM

highsea
09-10-2004, 03:29 PM
I've posted this before, but here is a link to Bush's COMPLETE history in the ANG. Days, points, etc. It clearly shows that he fulfilled his obligations, and then some.

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200402180840.asp

-CM

eg8r
09-10-2004, 03:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's funny to me that you guys can sling mud left and right towards Kerry's military service, but when new evidence comes out that Bush may have taken the easy way out as well, you just CAN'T believe it.
<hr /></blockquote> I don't think anyone has said this, however you are welcome to prove it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Talk about slinging mud.

The thread is about CBS reporting bad data. Making notice of this is not acting like we can't believe it could be true. If someone was lying about you, don't you think that should be mentioned?

eg8r

crawdaddio
09-10-2004, 04:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr> Didn't these documents come from the pentagon? <hr /></blockquote>The White House got them from CBS after the story aired. Then they released copies to the rest of the media.

They were not DOD files.

-CM <hr /></blockquote>

So then this quote is completely false?

[ QUOTE ]
he events unfolded a day after the <font color="red"> Pentagon,</font color> prompted by a lawsuit filed by The Associated Press, released a series of records on Mr. Bush's service, even though the White House had said this year that it had released all the records. <hr /></blockquote>

Eg8r--I have not seen evidence proving these documents either way. Prove that CBS lied.

[ QUOTE ]
They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s. <hr /></blockquote>

highsea
09-10-2004, 04:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr>So then this quote is completely false?

[ QUOTE ]
the events unfolded a day after the <font color="red"> Pentagon,</font color> prompted by a lawsuit filed by The Associated Press, released a series of records on Mr. Bush's service, even though the White House had said this year that it had released all the records. <hr /></blockquote>

David, we are talking about two different sets of documents. The White House did release some new records the other day. They were Bush's pilot logs.

<font color="red"> These are not the records that CBS aired. Get it? CBS is not revealing the source of the documents.</font color>

Maybe you should re-read the thread and the articles I linked.

-CM

nhp
09-10-2004, 04:34 PM
I can't believe the Kerry camp is stupid enough to focus on Bush's vietnam-era records. Kerry needs to focus on the present, because that is all the swing-voters care about. Bush has all but won the election now.

highsea
09-10-2004, 05:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote crawdaddio:</font><hr>I have not seen evidence proving these documents either way. Prove that CBS lied.<hr /></blockquote>David, it's up to CBS to prove they are not lying. They are the ones making the allegations. If I said Kerry starred in several gay porn movies, would it be up to you to prove me wrong? No, as the accuser, it is my responsibility to back up my claims. Suppose I then used Photoshop and faked a couple video box covers. Would that be proof?

CBS is not making the original documents available, nor are they revealing the source, or even the name of the person who authenticated them. What are they trying to hide?

The fact that every typography expert that has seen them call them forgeries, the fact that they directly contradict Killian's Official Reports, on Texas ANG letterhead, would make one expect CBS to want to find out the truth. It's their credibility being questioned, so why shouldn't they make their source known? It certainly wasn't the Pentagon. CBS says the documents came from "Personal Files" of Killian. His own wife said he never kept such files. So where did they come from?

Until someone independent can authenticate these memos, the report should be taken very lightly. I will trust Killian's wife, Official Texas ANG reports, and independent typography experts until CBS can prove these are real.

Personally, I think someone in the Kerry camp dummied up these memos, passed them off to CBS, and now that it's hitting the fan, they are leaving CBS hanging out to dry. Ben Barnes comes to mind, as he was part of the same story, and is already a proven liar.

The fact that CBS was so easily duped just shows how much they wanted these to be real.

CNN also has picked up the story: [ QUOTE ]
The personnel chief in Killian's unit at the time also said he believes the documents are fake. "They looked to me like forgeries," said Rufus Martin. "I don't think Killian would do that, and I knew him for 17 years." Killian died in 1984.

Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software. Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript -- a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" -- as evidence indicating forgery. Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by CBS, she said.

"I'm virtually certain these were computer generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Arizona. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software.

The Defense Department released Bush's pilot logs this week under pressure from a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by The Associated Press.<hr /></blockquote>
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/bush.guard.ap/index.html

-CM

highsea
09-10-2004, 05:53 PM
1972 Email Casts Doubt on Bush's Guard Service.

The Proof! (http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/597afecn.asp)

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hahahahaha!

-CM

highsea
09-10-2004, 09:34 PM
It gets better (http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/special_packages/election2004/9633814.htm). /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Man named in Bush memo left Guard before document was written.

BY PETE SLOVER
The Dallas Morning News

AUSTIN, Texas - (KRT) - The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugar coat" President Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo was supposedly written, his own service record shows.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged on March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of Bush's service, was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

Retired Col. Earl Lively, who was director of Air National Guard operations for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973 said Staudt "wasn't on the scene" after retirement, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Lively said. "He couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you don't have any authority."

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls seeking comment. His discharge paper was among a packet of documents obtained by The Dallas Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into Bush's Guard record.<hr /></blockquote>
And this (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html), [ QUOTE ]
HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS:

Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."


Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud". <hr /></blockquote>
Man, whoever pulled this con-job on CBS were really a bunch of amateurs.

Rather went for it hook, line, and sinker. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

-CM

pooltchr
09-13-2004, 01:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> With the integrity of the documents in question, CBS is doing an investigation, and Edwards still wants Bush to answer them...<hr /></blockquote>

I'm glad CBS is investigating this whole mess. It makes me feel so much better knowing that they will surely get to the bottom of this and tell us all what the real truth is!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif



Can you say "SPIN"????????????

Cueless Joey
09-13-2004, 02:02 PM
Is Rather still peed off Bush Sr. went off on him on the air eons ago?

Wally_in_Cincy
09-14-2004, 05:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr>
...Rather went for it hook, line, and sinker. <hr /></blockquote>

Because he wanted to believe it.

Now he's in meltdown mode. How does he always manage to step in it? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

"What's the frequency Kenneth?" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

stickman
09-14-2004, 08:38 AM
I'm not surprised at this stuff. It's the season. I don't think that one party is any less guilty than another. What surprised me was CBS strongly supporting the hoax. Their steadfast determination to support the hoax makes it appear that CBS was involved in the creation of the hoax. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

CBS News - Unfair and Biased

pooltchr
09-17-2004, 06:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Is Rather still peed off Bush Sr. went off on him on the air eons ago? <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think Rather will ever forget that one! Bush 41 made him look like an idiot on his own show!

pooltchr
09-17-2004, 06:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote highsea:</font><hr> 1972 Email Casts Doubt on Bush's Guard Service.

The Proof! (http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/597afecn.asp)

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hahahahaha!

-CM <hr /></blockquote>

It's strange. I was in the military in 72 as a communications specialist, and we never even HEARD of e-mail. We were still using teletype machines back then.

I gotta love Rather's response this week. Now he's saying, ok maybe the documents are not authentic, but I still believe they are true! His career is for all intents and purposes, over. He may make it through the election, but I bet he doesn't make it to his planned retirement 2 years from now.

Wally_in_Cincy
09-17-2004, 06:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>... He may make it through the election, but I bet he doesn't make it to his planned retirement 2 years from now. <hr /></blockquote>

He is scheduled to retire this coming spring. He is now in meltdown mode. I love it /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I heard Oliver North on the radio yesterday. He said "Dan Rather is a liar. Let me repeat this for his lawyers. Dan Rather is a liar"

Ollie is pissed because Rather claims that he was a Marine. Trouble is, Rather did not make it thru boot camp. He washed out after 43 days. Ollie says you're not a Marine if you don't make it thru boot camp.

Ross
09-17-2004, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> ...
I heard Oliver North on the radio yesterday. He said "Dan Rather is a liar. Let me repeat this for his lawyers. Dan Rather is a liar"
...
<hr /></blockquote>

Well, Ollie would be the expert on that subject. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
09-17-2004, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> ...
I heard Oliver North on the radio yesterday. He said "Dan Rather is a liar. Let me repeat this for his lawyers. Dan Rather is a liar"
...
<hr /></blockquote>

Well, Ollie would be the expert on that subject. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Ollie is an American Patriot /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

crawdaddio
09-17-2004, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> ...
I heard Oliver North on the radio yesterday. He said "Dan Rather is a liar. Let me repeat this for his lawyers. Dan Rather is a liar"
...
<hr /></blockquote>

Well, Ollie would be the expert on that subject. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Ollie is an American Patriot /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>


LOL, that's a good one Wally! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif