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Wally_in_Cincy
09-14-2004, 08:57 AM
In the final IIRC it was Owen 6 Hohmann 2. Hohmann played a devastating safe (again /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ). He's pretty good at those.

I don't remember the exact layout of the balls but Gabe pulled this shot out of his bag of tricks:

START(
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%VD0J5%WE0L1%XM7M6%]Q3N4%^n6S2
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html


and ran out. Hohmann looked like somebody had shot his dog.

Sid_Vicious
09-14-2004, 09:59 AM
Wally...was this a full length cue or a jumper???sid

Steve Lipsky
09-14-2004, 10:14 AM
Hey Wally. Hope all is well!

It looks like the balls were so close that he would have to use a jump cue. If this is the case, two things pop out to me:

1. He may not have even been playing it specifically. It looks like if he cuts the 2-ball to the right just a bit, his cueball might hide somewhere behind the 4,5,6. Maybe he was playing it two-way, and got away with the pocket?

2. If someone made a short-rail jump-bank on me (from that distance) with a regular playing cue, I'd chalk it up to about 80% skill/20% luck, and tell my opponent "nice shot". But jump cues are much less accurate than regular cues. The shot as it's set up on WEI looks to me like Owen got lucky to make it (if he used a jump cue). In other words, if Owen took the shot 10 more times and thought he aimed them all exactly like he did the first time, I can't see him (anyone) making it more than half the time. No repeatability = higher degree of luck involved (the way I see it, anyway).

If I were Hohmann I'd be absolutely sick that the ball fell.

Hope you had a great time at the Open, Wally... maybe I'll see you there next year?

- Steve

P.S. In no way am I disrespecting Gabe Owen. Faced with the same position, I would go for it too, lol. And congrats to him for such a great tournament.

Wally_in_Cincy
09-14-2004, 10:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Wally...was this a full length cue or a jumper???sid <hr /></blockquote>

jumper.

Hohmann was also using a jumper but he did jump a couple with his playing cue. They mave have been partial jumps, I could not really see from my angle.

Wally_in_Cincy
09-14-2004, 10:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> ...It looks like the balls were so close that he would have to use a jump cue....

<font color="blue">He used a jumper </font color>


If this is the case, two things pop out to me:

1. He may not have even been playing it specifically. It looks like if he cuts the 2-ball to the right just a bit, his cueball might hide somewhere behind the 4,5,6. Maybe he was playing it two-way, and got away with the pocket?

<font color="blue">He may have been. He did not really act surprised when it went. Of course I would do the same thing, act like I meant to make it and not let my opponent know that I got lucky /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Good analysis as usual Steve. Thanks.</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Hey Steve, here's a trivia question. Which top-notch NYC straight pool player, when asked what kind of jump cue he used, responding "I would not be caught dead with one of those silly things" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif or something to that effect. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ross
09-14-2004, 10:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hey Wally. Hope all is well!

...

2.If someone made a short-rail jump-bank on me (from that distance) with a regular playing cue, I'd chalk it up to about 80% skill/20% luck, and tell my opponent "nice shot". But jump cues are much less accurate than regular cues. The shot as it's set up on WEI looks to me like Owen got lucky to make it (if he used a jump cue). In other words, if Owen took the shot 10 more times and thought he aimed them all exactly like he did the first time, I can't see him (anyone) making it more than half the time. No repeatability = higher degree of luck involved (the way I see it, anyway).

If I were Hohmann I'd be absolutely sick that the ball fell.

Hope you had a great time at the Open, Wally... maybe I'll see you there next year?

- Steve

P.S. In no way am I disrespecting Gabe Owen. Faced with the same position, I would go for it too, lol. And congrats to him for such a great tournament. <hr /></blockquote>

Steve, he very well may have been lucky with that shot. But I used to think you couldn't be real accurate with a short jump cue until I started gambling against a local player named Vance. He pretty much doesn't miss when jumping with his Frog. The shot can be long or a steep cut or a bank - it doesn't matter to him. In fact, a snooker with more than a balls width between the cb and ob was usually a sellout when playing him. It got to the point that to get action, part of the spot he had to give up was that he couldn't use his jump cue. I've never seen a pro jump as accurately as this guy does.

Lately though, he switched from the Frog to a phenolic jumper and his accuracy has come down to where you would expect. I don't know if it is a matter of getting used to the new jump stick or if the phenolic is harder to be accurate with.

Steve Lipsky
09-14-2004, 10:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Hey Steve, here's a trivia question. Which top-notch NYC straight pool player, when asked what kind of jump cue he used, responding "I would not be caught dead with one of those silly things" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif or something to that effect. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmmm.... I don't know... but I'd sure like to meet him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Sounds like one smart cat /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

lol,
Steve

Stretch
09-14-2004, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Hey Steve, here's a trivia question. Which top-notch NYC straight pool player, when asked what kind of jump cue he used, responding "I would not be caught dead with one of those silly things" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif or something to that effect. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmmm.... I don't know... but I'd sure like to meet him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Sounds like one smart cat /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

lol,
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I like the saying "one game, one cue." St.

nhp
09-14-2004, 05:08 PM
Are you talking about Ginky?

Nostroke
09-14-2004, 05:42 PM
His jump didnt "fall"- It rocketed into the pocket.

The right man won the tournament. Gabe outplayed them all the last day or two.

Qtec
09-14-2004, 06:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
1. He may not have even been playing it specifically. It looks like if he cuts the 2-ball to the right just a bit, his cueball might hide somewhere behind the 4,5,6. Maybe he was playing it two-way, and got away with the pocket?
<hr /></blockquote>

I agree. I think he went for the safety and fluked the double.Even without jumping, the double is a tough shot and most likely game shot.

Qtec

Steve Lipsky
09-14-2004, 07:57 PM
Hey Dave. In no way did I mean to imply that Gabe did not deserve to win the tournament (and I thought I didn't /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif).

All I'm saying is that someone hits you with that shot, you're allowed to be sick. It's very low percentage. It's definitely much higher percentage in the hands of Gabe Owen than it is in mine, for whatever that's worth.

As good as the pros play, sometimes they get lucky. And luck is a matter of degrees. This isn't even close to crapping in a 9, or making one on the break. But for Hohmann to at least not get back to the table from there is a little unlucky.

Gabe Owen is an awesome player and a really nice guy. None of the above should be taken to mean he did not deserve this tremendous win.

- Steve

Rich R.
09-15-2004, 02:51 AM
Steve, IMHO, whether you are a pro or not, I don't believe anyone wins a tournament, without a little bit of luck. I also believe that applies to all games, not just 9-ball.

BCgirl
09-15-2004, 02:53 AM
Call me picky, but IMO, Hohmann played a weak safe. 90% of top players are going to hit the 2 from there. Plus, there are a lot of options.

A defensive option might be:
START(
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%VC7P5%WF8Z7%XC4Q4%YL8E2%ZP1L9%[D3P5%\L0D7%]Q3N1%^n6S2%_D9P1
%`I9O0%aN1N0%bi7X3%c`6Y5%dW6Z8
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... but there's a risk of a CB scratch and/or making the 2 with no position on the 3.

On the other hand, if you go for the jump/bank, and bank short, the 8 my be a friend :

START(
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%VD3L2%WE1L7%XM7M6%Ys1D3%Zo0H4%]Q3N4%^n6S2
)END

or

START(
%BO3M8%Cl8R9%DN4Q9%EL1X5%FZ5V1%GE5E9%Ho4I6%Ii7U6%P p2S6%Ur0G0
%VC8K5%WE0L1%XM7M6%YE7D3%Zr7F4%]Q3N4%^n6S2
)END

or

START(
%BO3M8%Cl8R9%DN4Q9%EL1X5%FZ5V1%GE5E9%Ho4I6%Ii7U6%P p2S6%Ur1F1
%VC8K5%WE0L1%XM7M6%YQ7D2%Zr9E7%[F6D9%\P4D1%]Q3N4%^n6S2%_C7C9
%`D3D3%aD9D7
)END

So, the jump bank (erring on the short side) seems to be a good choice if you're going to be aggressive.

In any event, TH played what was, at best, a containing shot. He shouldn't expect a nice option if he returns to the table, and since he more or less hung the rack out there, it shouldn't surprise him if he gets nailed by an aggressive shot. Of course, it still takes awesome execution and/or a touch of luck to make the bank, but that's what the top players do!

BCgirl

Sid_Vicious
09-15-2004, 05:22 AM
If it was me on that shot, I'd have figured the jump combination into that corner pocket on the dark colored ball. I figure he hit it fast for the combination figuring the CB would slide back up the bottom long rail for a possible lucky safe in case it failed to pocket. You can't convice me that the guy figured a jump bank like that on purpose, not at that length, and not hitting it as fast as somebody said he hit that stroke, that is assuming the logic that he was looking for another variation of a 2-way. That's a far better jump combination with a second half for a possibly down table roll for the CB, he just hit it so bad that he made it look good(IMHO) sid

Wally_in_Cincy
09-15-2004, 05:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCgirl:</font><hr> Call me picky, but IMO, Hohmann played a weak safe.....<hr /></blockquote>

You're picky /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

From my original post.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> ...I don't remember the exact layout of the balls...<hr /></blockquote>

If you had been there you would know that Hohmann did not play a "weak safe" all day. He is one of the best safety players I have seen in a while.

Come to think of it, the best safeties I saw all day were the three that Niels Feijen played on himself /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. Poor guy.

But I agree with the different scenarios you posted above, I just wanted to clear that up. Thanks.

Nostroke
09-15-2004, 07:11 AM
I didnt think you implied that Steve.

I just added that the right man won because some were saying in VA he got a lot of rolls. Even Barry after the match on the Mic, twice mentioned Gabe getting all the rolls. Rolls my ass, the guy probably shot .970 in the finals. I really don't remember him missing a ball or selling out on a safe.

He had the week of a lifetime which he surely will never forget and I'm real happy for him.

Steve Lipsky
09-15-2004, 08:04 AM
Hi BCGirl. I can't tell if you're being serious or not, so I apologize in advance if you weren't and I misunderstood. The one thing from your post that makes me think you may have been joking is when you wrote that Hohmann "hung the rack out there" from that position. If that is a hanging rack to you, how good do YOU play, lol??

You said Hohmann's safe (assuming Wally's diagram was an exact replica of the layout) was at best a containing shot. I don't know what to say, except that in my opinion Hohmann wins way more games from here than he loses. You think that either Owen is the favorite here, or that there is no meaningful edge to either player from this position?

As to your contention that 90% of top players will hit the 2 from there, I disagree. I think the figure is closer to 100% of any donkey holding a jump cue, which is why the ****ing things need to be banned.

- Steve

Sid_Vicious
09-15-2004, 08:41 AM
"which is why the ****ing things need to be banned."

Let's face it, the audience likes this stuff and we'd not be conversing about it here if some here did not like it as well, the jump cue draws the novice to the tube for a replay. As far ar 100% of players using a jumper hitting that shot...I've seen both Jeanette Lee AND Allison Fisher screw up jumps easier than the one laid out in this Wei presentation, even some of the male pros lose whitey off of the table at times. There is still an amount of finesse required in even this jump shot layout(IMO) sid

Steve Lipsky
09-15-2004, 08:49 AM
Hey Sid. You're right, of course. Just in one of my "burn the jump cues" moods. Hits me with regularity about once every three hours /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

- Steve

Eric.
09-15-2004, 08:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> any donkey holding a jump cue, which is why the ****ing things need to be banned.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Unfortunately, some "good safes" ain't so safe anymore.

Are you playing in the tourney this weekend? If I wake up on time, maybe I'll play.


Eric &gt;donkey with a jump stump /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

BCgirl
09-15-2004, 09:07 AM
Yes, I was being serious. When I say "hung the rack out there", I'm talking in the context of the level of the two players. Your own comment is that any donkey with a jump cue will hit the 2. That makes it a weak safe. And, I'd say that a top pro has a better than 50% chance of a good safety in response, which probably relegates it to the category of really weak safe.

Would I be happy with the safe? No. I might be happy in the knowledge that it was the best I could do, or that my opponent wasn't Gabe Owen (and I'm not really likely to see them jump and bank). But, knowing that you play at a good speed, would you be happy with that safe? I think you'd be selling your game short. Do you really think that TH should be happy with it in the US Open Final?

As for who has the edge, I'd say that it's 50/50, only because so many things can go wrong with the various options. On the other hand, a lot of good things can happen, too. That's pretty much the definition of a containing safety. It would make an interesting push out position. If this was a push, how many of the top players would take the shot? I think a lot of them would, but they'd think really hard about it.

I'd agree that without jump cues, the safe is a little better. In this case, there's an easy one rail kick, but it's a lot harder to play a good safe. That said, if you do make the 2, you've pretty much automatic position on the 3.

START(
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%V]3D2%WD5Z1%XN1N3%Y^4D8%Zo4R7%[L5F2%\D0I0%]E0J0%^O2L8%_C7C9
%`D3D3%aD9D7
)END

As for banning jump cues, I have mixed feelings. Like many players, I invested in a jump cue, so I'd be pretty unhappy if I couldn't use it. On the other hand, it is a bit of a lame excuse of a shot, and not nearly so pretty or skilful as a good kick.

lol

BCgirl

Steve Lipsky
09-15-2004, 09:58 AM
Hey BC... I don't agree with everything you say, but you defend your points well and that makes it a good debate.

I would be happy (not ecstatic) with that safe, simply because anytime my opponent can't see the ball, it's in the middle of the table, and a kick-safe is not obvious, I'm in good shape. I will win more games from here than I will lose. I know I have in the past, so I assume I will in the future. Doesn't mean every game, of course, or anywhere near it. It's just a percentage thing.

If you can find me one pro who accepts that position from a push, though, I'd be awfully surprised. You're just giving up too much in terms of speed, feel, stroke, and spin with a jump cue. All you have to work with, to make your safety, is slightly varying the speed, and choosing the best place to hit the object ball. Too few ingredients, in my opinion, to make a high-percentage safe.

I definitely see your point, though, that with jump cues being legal, anything that can be jumped is by definition not a great safe.

- Steve

Stretch
09-15-2004, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCgirl:</font><hr> Yes, I was being serious. When I say "hung the rack out there", I'm talking in the context of the level of the two players. Your own comment is that any donkey with a jump cue will hit the 2. That makes it a weak safe. And, I'd say that a top pro has a better than 50% chance of a good safety in response, which probably relegates it to the category of really weak safe.

Would I be happy with the safe? No. I might be happy in the knowledge that it was the best I could do, or that my opponent wasn't Gabe Owen (and I'm not really likely to see them jump and bank). But, knowing that you play at a good speed, would you be happy with that safe? I think you'd be selling your game short. Do you really think that TH should be happy with it in the US Open Final?

As for who has the edge, I'd say that it's 50/50, only because so many things can go wrong with the various options. On the other hand, a lot of good things can happen, too. That's pretty much the definition of a containing safety. It would make an interesting push out position. If this was a push, how many of the top players would take the shot? I think a lot of them would, but they'd think really hard about it.

I'd agree that without jump cues, the safe is a little better. In this case, there's an easy one rail kick, but it's a lot harder to play a good safe. That said, if you do make the 2, you've pretty much automatic position on the 3.

START(
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%V]3D2%WD5Z1%XN1N3%Y^4D8%Zo4R7%[L5F2%\D0I0%]E0J0%^O2L8%_C7C9
%`D3D3%aD9D7
)END

As for banning jump cues, I have mixed feelings. Like many players, I invested in a jump cue, so I'd be pretty unhappy if I couldn't use it. On the other hand, it is a bit of a lame excuse of a shot, and not nearly so pretty or skilful as a good kick.

lol

BCgirl <hr /></blockquote>

Well said BCgirl. And i'm in complete agreement with you on that one. Everyone that loves the jumper say's how exiciting, and dramatic it is to see a jump shot. To who? The Public? I can think of many OTHER ways to give the public the cheap thrills it wants because A) you need a specialized cue B) it abuses the equipment and C) When missed, or messed up (which is OFTEN) it absolutely looks bush league and embarassing. Keep the cue ball on the table where it belongs and learn the rails. St

SPetty
09-15-2004, 10:26 AM
http://www.pettypoint.com/USOpenPics/gabewins.jpg

Wally_in_Cincy
09-15-2004, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> http://www.pettypoint.com/USOpenPics/gabewins.jpg <hr /></blockquote>

For the CCB's info, that was right after he secured the hot seat.

SPetty: <font color="red">"Smile for me Gabe" </font color>

Wally_in_Cincy: <font color="blue">"Oh he's smiling alright" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>

He was a happy dude right about then.

Ross
09-15-2004, 11:07 AM
Great pic, Spetty. Keep posting!

onepocketchump
09-19-2004, 05:36 PM
As for banning jump cues, I have mixed feelings. Like many players, I invested in a jump cue, so I'd be pretty unhappy if I couldn't use it. On the other hand, it is a bit of a lame excuse of a shot, and not nearly so pretty or skilful as a good kick.

lol

BCgirl <hr /></blockquote>

Well said BCgirl. And i'm in complete agreement with you on that one. Everyone that loves the jumper say's how exiciting, and dramatic it is to see a jump shot. To who? The Public? I can think of many OTHER ways to give the public the cheap thrills it wants because A) you need a specialized cue B) it abuses the equipment and C) When missed, or messed up (which is OFTEN) it absolutely looks bush league and embarassing. Keep the cue ball on the table where it belongs and learn the rails. St
<hr /></blockquote>

Can I just ask if any of you are in favor a World Championship being decided because one player misses his shot and leaves an almost impossible kick shot unintentionally? In today's nine-ball rules this is exactly the kind of thing that happens all the time. This is why the jump cue is a needed part of the game.

I want to to see all those who are in favor of not having jump cues start lobbying for a change in the rules. Back when the game was two-foul ball in hand jump cues were not needed as any player could push out on any shot. Maybe it's just me but when Jump Cues were invented and in use from the mid eighties to the late nineties I rarely heard the kind of anti-jump cue sentiment that you hear today from a vocal minority. This seems to directly correlate with the rise of a new breed of jump cue, namely the Bunjee style, phenolic tipped versions. These cues make it possible to jump with consistency and accuracy. Consequently they seem to attract detractors who denounce them as gimmicks.

In five years of selling jump cues, doing jump exhibitions and teaching people to jump there are a few things that I know to be true beyond any doubt.

1. No jump cue makes any shot by itself. Not one. In every case there must be a human guiding the cue and applying the right amount of stroke, speed and spin to the cueball to have ANY chance of success.

2. The majority of amateurs are not able to jump balls solely because a jump cue is placed in their hands. I have tons of anecdotal proof that this statement is true. I have personally taught hundreds of otherwise good players the proper technique after watching them fail miserably while attempting to jump with a jump cue.

3. Every jump shot, whether with a jump or not is a skill shot on par with any other shot. Say what you will, but to be successful with kicks, banks, draw, follow, sidespin and jump shots the player must practice and master all the nuance that goes along with it. No one can disprove that a jump-three rail kick is harder than the same three rail kick shot without the jump shot.

4. Jumping is a skill that is enhanced by the equipment. That is right, the jump cue enhances the skill. We all know that different full length cues jump differently. The most famous example of this is the poor jumpability of the Predator shaft. So when you see good players jumping with their regular cues it is partly skill and partly cue. Replace the cue with one that does not "jump" as well and their success rate goes down accordingly. Thus, with a tool like the jump cue the playing field is equalized in that almost all of todays jump cues have a very similar performance. The conclusion is then that if two players are using a jump cue and faced with the same shot the one with superior skill will have a better chance. Conversely, if bith players are forced to use their regular playing cues then the one with the cue with better "jumpability" will probably have the edge.

These four things are just plain facts that are truly undeniable. The other thing is that jump cues do not "abuse" the equipment. Sorry, I have done well over 500,000 jump shots and have deliberately driven the tip of the jump cue into the cloth several thousand times to prove that it does no damage to the cloth. The balls do not suffer, nor the slate, nor the rails so no abuse occurs merely through "normal" use.

Lastly, to debate the point of which shot is "more skillful". I say that neither is more skillful than the other. A well executed jump shot requires as much knowledge and skill as a well executed kick shot. To give you all a good example, the other night I played in a tournament and I managed to hook myself with the cueball in the middle of the table. The only kicking option held a fairly large chance of scratching if I made contact with the ball and no real chance of a safety or pocketing the ball. On the other hand if I chose to jump then I would have to be very accurate as there was not very much room between the blocking ball and the object ball. I needed to stop my cueball almost dead to avoid jumping it or the object ball off the table. Knowing what I needed to do I calculated the amount of angle, how hard to strike the cueball and how low to hit it. I pulled the trigger and made the object ball and stopped the cueball dead. My opponent congratulated me on a good shot. The point being that NO ONE on Earth can take away from me that it was my skill that made the shot and NOT the jump cue. The jump cue ONLY made the shot possible, not automatic in any sense. My experience and practice made the shot. A chalked cue makes spin possible on the cueball but Mike Massey will outdraw me with the same cue every time.

So please, please stop calling the jump cue a gimmick. It is a tool that has evolved to fill a need. As long as the rules require a good hit to avoid ball in hand the jump cue and the jump shot will be a part of pool. If you want to see it go away then change the rules back to two foul nine-ball.

Thank you,

John

onepocketchump
09-19-2004, 05:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "which is why the ****ing things need to be banned."

Let's face it, the audience likes this stuff and we'd not be conversing about it here if some here did not like it as well, the jump cue draws the novice to the tube for a replay. As far ar 100% of players using a jumper hitting that shot...I've seen both Jeanette Lee AND Allison Fisher screw up jumps easier than the one laid out in this Wei presentation, even some of the male pros lose whitey off of the table at times. There is still an amount of finesse required in even this jump shot layout(IMO) sid
<hr /></blockquote>

Obviously the PRO likes it to as evidenced by the fact that over 90% of them use jump cues. In fact, every World Champion except Earl Striclkand uses jump cues to compete under today's rules. They realize that the jump cue is a neccessity. I am positive that they are glad that today's jump cues at least deliver consistent performance that they can depend on. The Pros certainly realize that when they miss the jump shot using a jump cue then it is their fault and not the cue's.

John

onepocketchump
09-19-2004, 05:50 PM
To all CCB'ers reading this thread. I will be at the October Midwest Expo in the Fury Booth. I will be more than happy to spend time with any of you to prove my statements made here. I will bring two regular pool cues, one with excellent jumping properties - not doctored in any way - a normal cue with a normal off-the-shelf leather tip - and another normal cue with not so good jumping properties. Then you all can see what I mean in addition to me proving all the statements about the jump shot using a jump cue being a highly skilled shot.

John