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View Full Version : A Red Dot is a Red Circle is a Red Dot.. Or is it?



SnakebyteXX
09-21-2004, 10:39 AM
I've heard a lot of good things about the benefits of using a 'Red Dot' cueball so this a.m. I set out to see what it would cost to acquire one of these alleged gems (no... not 'The Measles Ball' - 'The RED DOT ball ).

The problem is that there seems to be room for confusion on the part of buyers out there. Here's a pic of the first ball cue ball I came across when I did a search for a 'red circle' cue ball. Several sites that offer the red circle ball admonish prospective buyers that: "Many people perceive the quality of this ball being higher than that of our plain white replacement cue ball, but that is just not true." However, they all appear to be more than willing to sell you one if the heart is willing and your credit is good.

http://img10.paintedover.com/uploads/10/redcirclecueball2.jpg

Then I did a search for a 'red dot' cue ball and there it was (Kind of...):

Ozone Billiards ad calls it the -

Aramith Red Circle Cue Ball - 2.25"

"Add razorsharp precision to your game by purchasing this Aramith Red Dot cue ball. A great, quality replacement cue ball for all sets."

http://img10.paintedover.com/uploads/10/reddotcueball.jpg

But it says nothing about the alleged superior playing quality of the ball. Except the 'aiming' benefit. Nor do any of the other sites I found that offer this Saluc creation.

Then as if there wasn't already enough 'red dot/circle/red marks of any kind are cool' confusion - along comes Saluc's 'Super Aramith Pro Cue Ball' that allegedly "Add(s) razorsharp precision to your game." as well. But... if you look closely at the red 'whatever' on this ball you will see that it's NEITHER A CIRCLE NOR A DOT! Instead it's more like a little red diamond thingie with an "S" symbol in the middle (for 'Saluc' obviously.

http://img10.paintedover.com/uploads/10/superaramithproreddotcueball.jpg

Now, given that each of these different red marked balls can be had at competitive prices and NONE of the web sites that sell them are doing anything at all to differentiate one from the other on the basis of 'Superior Playing Quality' (one red marked style versus any other red marked style - is what I'm getting at here) ---- where does the reputation of THE red dot cue ball come from and IF IT's TRUE (the reputation) and not a myth --- why am I not seeing that virtue splashed all over the websites that are selling these balls?

How come they're so hard to tell apart? (except when you have seen the picture show as posted above?). How come they all cost about the same? What's the big deal (or.. is there a big deal) about these red marks anyhow?

Confused by red dot mania and trying to make sense of it all...

Snake

Rich R.
09-21-2004, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SnakebyteXX:</font><hr>Confused by red dot mania and trying to make sense of it all... <hr /></blockquote>
The heck with it all.
Play with a blue circle cue ball.
Or is that a blue dot, or is that a blue........
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif


IMHO, play with the cue ball, that came with the set of balls. That way, they were all manufactured to the same standards and there is no advantage or disadvantage.

Mr Ingrate
09-21-2004, 10:58 AM
I believe the red circle and the red aramith logo ball are the same. The red dot is heavier I think.

Fred where are you?

I know the material the blue dot is made from gets dirty real fast and is hard to clean.

I recommend the aramith logo ball. I have one in my case, just in case.

SPetty
09-21-2004, 11:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr>Fred where are you?<hr /></blockquote> Here's Fred... (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=105040&amp;page =&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

wolfdancer
09-21-2004, 11:45 AM
Mr.Ingrate, in a reply awhile back, Mr. Agnir(I believe) stated that both the red and blue circle were made of the same materials......
Try telling that to a Bay Area Tournament player...
The red seems more "lively", and as you noted, stays a little cleaner....the red circle is also about 4 grams lighter, on the cueballs that we weighed for comparision. Four grams ain't much, but in some enterprises, can be expensive.....and if you're used to a certain reaction from either ball, could cost you some $$ if you end up playing with the other one.
I have a new table, new super Aramith balls, and the red "S" cueball...( I think that's the one Superman plays with ) Anyway, I get more cueball action, especially draw, then I've ever had...but it's due to the combination of equipment...also just had a Moori installed on my Predator...and probably not the cueball.
I saw your software "in action" recently, and no T.D. should leave home without it...it's fantastically easy to use...and easy to correct an input error.
Now about your country, which is slowly turning our citizens into smugglers...it started off with them there illegal prescription drugs...and now I'm ashamed to say, folks from this area are smuggling in illegal toilets.
The Federal Energy Act of 1994 mandated that residential toilets use no more than 1.6 gallons of water per flush. Faced with choices of double-flushing...and in some cases, four flushers, they're bootlegging high water capacity Canadian toilets into the good ole USA, and we might run out of water, before we run out of oil.
I thought they had tightened security at the borders after 9/11...on my last crossing, instead of just asking "where I was born?"...they added "are you carrying any weapons?"...looks like they haven't been alerted to this new clear and present danger.

SnakebyteXX
09-21-2004, 11:53 AM
To further confuse/clarify the isse - Here's a copy of an email to Saluc that I purloined from the RSB catacombs. It's dated May of 2000:

"It took two months and three tries, but today I got a response from Saluc. Here it is:

Dear Mr. Simpson,

Please find below our comments on your April 25 e-mail.

1. In our top line of American Pool balls 2" 1/4 we are
manufacturing two sets :

a) "SUPER ARAMITH PRO" set (blue box) with a red triangle cue ball
b) "BRUNSWICK CENTENNIAL" set (Brunswick box) with a blue
circle cue ball

For your information, the above 2 products are exactly the same : the only difference is their design.

2. The "red circle" cue balls are produced with a different
kind of cast phenolic resin. This is the only difference with the above 2 cue balls.
Best regards,

SALUC S.A. - Belgium

-- It could still be true that the Blue Circles and the Red
Circles are different weights, since they are different
materials, but they didn't specifically address that question.

I'm sure the language barrier is part of the problem."

Furthermore -

Red Circle, Blue Circle, Red Triangle - some new facts

OK. I've been exchanging emails with Saluc (the Belgian ball maker) for a while on the subject of cueballs. I still don't have all the answers, but I have a lot more than before.

Saluc says:

--&gt; The Centennials and the Super Aramith Pros are made from the identical resin, and to the same specs.

--&gt; The cueballs that come with those two sets are made from the same resin and are also identical. The Blue Circle comes with the Centennials, while the Red Triangle comes with the Pros.

--&gt; The Super Aramiths (non-Pros) are made from a "carom" resin.

--&gt; The Red Circle cueball comes with the Super Aramiths, and is made of the same material, i.e., the carom resin.

Saluc says the Super Aramith resin is "the one preferred in Carom professional use. It is very hard to say which one is the best. Both types of resin are top quality for professional use and the preference to use one or another depends on the type of game being played and your
playing style (technical versus fast...). It is indeed very much so a personal player's matter..."

So, Saluc has admitted that the Blue Circle and the Red Circle are indeed made from different resins. Unfortunately, they still have not answered my question about the weights of the two balls. I wonder if some of the differences we experience are related to other attributes of the material, such as resilience?"

ras314
09-21-2004, 12:40 PM
I have one of each of the three red cb's you mention. I can't tell the difference between the Aramith red dot and the stylized red A cb that now comes with the "super Aramith Pro" set. Do not confuse the Aramith red dot with the Dynamo red dot which is a 2 1/2" heavy ball for coin op tables without the magnetic sorting mechanism.

The red circle is an "off white" color and stays clean much better. It also seems less apt to collect little pits from bouncing off concrete floors. I used two of these in bar tournaments for a while and they still look brand new. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Fred Agnir
09-21-2004, 01:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Mr.Ingrate, in a reply awhile back, Mr. Agnir(I believe) stated that both the red and blue circle were made of the same materials...... <hr /></blockquote>Just to be clear, the red circle and blue circle are absolutely made from different materials. The red circle is made from a "carom material" according to the manufacturer.

Fred

SnakebyteXX
09-21-2004, 03:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
the red circle and blue circle are absolutely made from different materials. The red circle is made from a "carom material" <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, I think I'm starting to get it. Correct me if I'm wrong but according to Saluc, their red circle cueball is made from 'carom material' (a different form of Phenolic resin than that which is used to make pool balls). Is it lighter and more resilient (springy)than the others? Is this the one that is preferred by so many players because of it's unique performance characteristics and perceived superiority?

Not to confuse the issue but apparently there are other manufacturers making red circle cue balls and Saluc is not the only one? Then sites offering the red circle cue ball for sale that say: "Many people perceive the quality of this ball being higher than that of our plain white replacement cue ball, but that is just not true." are NOT selling the Saluc red circle carom cue ball.


Snake

Rod
09-21-2004, 04:41 PM
You've got a red dot ball in the center, it's way heavier than the red circle about 6 OZ compared to 5.6 OZ appx. It's made for older Dynamo weight scale tables.

A few years ago I weighed 7 new red circles and three Blue circles on a gram scale down to grains. The red circles all veried in weight. From the low to high was just over 2 Grams. The blue's were heavier by about 3 grams and much closer in weight. Not a big deal for most and most all could never tell the difference. Even real good players get the weight confused, I've seen some that say the red is heavier. It's definately mental.

Rod

#### leonard
09-22-2004, 06:57 AM
God let us bring back Albany Billiard Ball Co. John Wesley Hyatt is rolling over in his Maesleoum.####

Keith Talent
09-22-2004, 07:35 PM
And while we're at it, what about the weight and composition of the TV measels ball compared with the others? Some pros, I'm told, insist that it's the lightest of all.

SnakebyteXX
09-23-2004, 05:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr> And while we're at it, what about the weight and composition of the TV measels ball compared with the others? Some pros, I'm told, insist that it's the lightest of all. <hr /></blockquote>

That information will have to come from someone with a brand new measles ball and an accurate scale. It would be interesting to know how it compares to the others.

In the meantime further plagurizing of the RSB archive reveals:

"I weighed &amp; measured (2) Centenial Blue Circle Cueballs &amp; (1) Red Circle Cueball. All three are brand new, untouched by leather or felt.

.................. Weight (grams).......Diameter

Blue Circle #1........167.9........ 2.2500
Blue Circle #2........167.6........ 2.2470
Red Circle............164.0........ 2.2425"

-------------------
"A red circle cueball is LIGHTER than the blue circle. You can see the effect of this difference by shooting a couple of draw shots with both cueballs. The lighter red circle ball will draw back more easily than the blue circle."
----------------------
In addition to the weight/material variance that can change according to ones choice of cue ball - I believe the following data has some very interesting implications insofar as overall playing consistancy is concerned:

"I have a ball measuring device that was given to me a year ago in Valley Forge by Dennis Pisko (an RSB participant). There are two holes in a metal plate drilled precisely to 2.25" + .003" and 2.25" - .003". With a brand new set of Centennials, the balls will not go through either hole. When I measure Centennials that are 10-12 years old (at the pool hall), the variances are HUGE. Some balls will go though the smaller hole with plenty of room to spare. I have seen many shocked faces as I proved that the balls shrink over time, almost certainly due to the beating they take. I can tell you that, at our pool hall, the lower numbered balls (solids) are universally smaller than the stripes -- probably because 9-ball is the most popular game in the house. Other then really old cueballs (they tend to get replaced over time), the 1-Balls are the smallest."

Frank_Glenn
09-23-2004, 06:59 AM
Here is a post I made from RSB a while back:
In article &lt;20040217130437.22671.00002075@mb-m18.aol.com&gt;,
jamalloy@aol.comnojunk says...
:|:Shawn Putnam claims he "grew up on the red-circle cue-ball," and he likes it
:|:because it is lighter than the blue-dot.
:|:
I have a digital postal scale, so here is what I get:

OZ GM
5.6 161 red circle (older)
5.7 164 red circle (old, but not as old as the other red)
5.8 167 blue circle (oldest)
5.7 163 no circle Arimeth (newest)
5.9 168 plugged (bar box ball)
5.8 166 1 ball Arimeth
5.9 168 1 ball centennial
5.8 165 9 ball Arimeth
5.9 168 9 ball Centennial

I bought the Centennials in 1998, I bought the red circles at
different times after that (as well as the plugged, which I do not
use much, if ever). I bought the Arimeth green box set last year
around September or so. The blue and red balls are obviously made of
different material and are different color. I have seen posts about
different resins before. I think it was Tom Simpson who posted this
after asking Saluk about it.

Conclusions:
The older, more used red circle weighs less, it's worn, most likely

The newer red circle and the Arimeth weigh pretty close

The blue circle weighs a little more than the other cueballs, but
about the same as the Centennial balls

The Arimeth cueball and ball set weigh about the same

The Arimeth set weighs less than the Centennials

Whether the cueball is lighter than the rack balls may well depend on
which brand of balls you use, and in any case, the differences are
small.

Frank

SnakebyteXX
09-23-2004, 07:24 AM
Would it be fair to suggest that the older (more well used) pool balls that most of us see at our local pool hall are all going to vary in size and weight according to the amount of wear that they've seen?

I can't help but wonder how this affects the overall consistancy of the game. I mean if for example the one ball is more worn down (smaller) than the higher numbered balls does this mean that the contact point between the cue ball and the one ball has changed such that the one ball will take the cueball hit above its center and rebound differently as it hits the cushion(s) and at a higher point the other balls as well?

I also get that Saluc devotes some efforts towards matching the cue ball weight/size to the set with which it's sold. Meaning that if you buy the entire set you can at least expect a high degree of uniformity in terms of contact points, resilliance, etc. Whereas if you start 'mixing' a Saluc red circle cue ball with a set of Brunswick Centennials (typically comes with a blue dot cue ball) you are tampering with the uniformity and overall balance of how the balls are 'designed to play'.

In a world where players are often seeking consistancy in their fundamentals in order to achieve as close to a predictable outcome as possible - wouldn't it be prudent to make certain the set of balls you're playing is also as balanced and as uniform as possible?

In other words - wouldn't newer matched sets of pool balls (no mix and match on the cue ball - red dot, red circle, red triangle, or otherwise) be optimumal in terms of a level playing field - and the one likely to provide the most consistant, predictable and fair outcome?

Snake

Scott Lee
09-23-2004, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> It's definately mental.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Here is the REAL, TOTAL truth! A few grams here or there; this tip or that tip; this cue/shaft or that cue/shaft...none of it makes ANY difference in the long run! A quality stroke will eliminate these miniscule differences to where the ultimate truth lies...a player with a great stroke can use ANY equipment and play a better game overall (and play more consistently at a higher level), than the player who is constantly changing one thing or another, in a futile attempt to find the 'holy grail' piece of equipment that will "allow" them to get better (be it the CB, cue, tip, shaft, or table)! Invest your time and money in finding a quality instructor, and then PRACTICE the right way. What IS a quality instructor?
One who works with your game BEHIND the CB first, instead of in front of the CB (ball pocketing and position play).
JMO

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com (http://www.poolknowledge.com)

Rod
09-23-2004, 11:10 AM
Well said Scott and I happen to agree, oh about a 1000 percent. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif What happens before the c/b has everything to do with good or poor results. What happens afterwards is just a by product per-say.

Rod

SnakebyteXX
09-23-2004, 12:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I happen to agree, oh about a 1000 percent. <hr /></blockquote>

You won't get too much of an argument from me either. The closest thing I can compare this to in my life is trout fishing. I grew up chasing Bass and later on Trout wherever I could find them. Over the years I learned that the five million casts I'd made trying to get the lure to land exactly where and how I wanted it - and how fast or slow I retrieved it made a hell of a lot more difference in terms of results than whether I was using an expensive graphite rod - top of the line reel - or a tackle box full of a thousand different lures that I changed every five minutes in that never ending search for 'just the right one'.

Many years ago I was taken in hand by a veteran trout fisherman who had learned at his Daddy's knee. I was switching from Bass fishing to trout and couldn't seem to catch a trout to save my life so I begged for his help. He told me that him and his Dad used only ONE lure for trout and the only difference was the color. Sometimes they used a black one and sometimes a silver one and other times they'd go with a gold. He taught me that it wasn't even using the right lure so much as HOW you fished that lure and that if I took the time to practice and learn to fish it the way he taught me - that I'd end up catching more trout than you could shake a stick at - and he was right.

To this day when I'm after trout I take a small plastic box filled with those same kind of gold, black and silver lures and that's it. I rarely return empty handed unless I'm doing nothing but catch and release that day - last year my best Native Rainbow weighed in at over twelve pounds (caught and released).

Yes, I do agree - you can't buy your game - you have to learn the moves and keep practicing them until the day finally comes when you've been working at it long enough and hard enough to know you have finally earned it.

Snake

Scott Lee
09-23-2004, 02:27 PM
Snake...WOW! What a great analogy!...true and to the point!

Scott Lee

pooltchr
09-24-2004, 06:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> It's definately mental.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Here is the REAL, TOTAL truth! A few grams here or there; this tip or that tip; this cue/shaft or that cue/shaft...none of it makes ANY difference in the long run! A quality stroke will eliminate these miniscule differences to where the ultimate truth lies...a player with a great stroke can use ANY equipment and play a better game overall (and play more consistently at a higher level), than the player who is constantly changing one thing or another, in a futile attempt to find the 'holy grail' piece of equipment that will "allow" them to get better (be it the CB, cue, tip, shaft, or table)! Invest your time and money in finding a quality instructor, and then PRACTICE the right way. What IS a quality instructor?
One who works with your game BEHIND the CB first, instead of in front of the CB (ball pocketing and position play).
JMO

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com (http://www.poolknowledge.com)
<hr /></blockquote>

Thank You, Scott. I quoted you only because it was worth repeating!
Steve