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nAz
09-22-2004, 10:45 AM
Good interview I think he is asking what a lot of Americans want to know.

ZAHN: So you think it was the president's job today to beat up the U.N.?

BIDEN: It was his time to tell the truth, to level, to just flat level with the American people, with the United Nations and say, look, you may not have liked my going in. You may not have liked how I have handled it since then, but just two months ago you made a firm commitment when you voted for the U.N. Security Council resolution that you'd help Allawi train his forces, that you would help him financially, that you would forgive debt, that you'd provide protection for the U.N. security force.

You have done none of that. You owe it to Mr. Allawi. You owe it to everyone to keep your commitment and get over -- basically, get over the fact you're mad at me. This is about all of our interests.

ZAHN: All right. But, Senator, if you believe the U.N. has been so woefully inadequate, what makes you think John Kerry's plan that he announced yesterday would extract more cooperation from the U.N.? What would be different?

BIDEN: Well, by the way, by the time John Kerry is president, as he says, if he is, this may be Lebanon. There may be no plan. The president keeps dumbing this down so much, that it makes it harder and harder.

ZAHN: So do you think the U.N. is totally irrelevant now? BIDEN: I think the president's becoming irrelevant. You're sitting out as a delegate from any one of your countries. What did the president just do today? He let you off the hook. He let you off the hook. He said everything's going fine.

ZAHN: Why don't you think the president took on the U.N. today? Is there a political calculation?

BIDEN: You know, Paula, I swear to God, I don't know. This is so much bigger than George Bush or John Kerry. I just don't get it.

I just simply do not -- and, by the way, it's not just that I don't get it. It's not just that I don't get it. Dick Lugar doesn't get it. Chuck Hagel doesn't get it. John McCain doesn't get it. All of us who deal with foreign policy up here, we don't get it.

ZAHN: Senator, here's what I don't understand. We've heard members of your party turn up the heat on the president, as well as your Republican colleagues in the Senate, Senator Hagel saying this is a war we can't win. We are in big-time trouble over there. Given how heated the tensions are around this issue, can you explain to us tonight why John Kerry has the numbers he has when it comes to the public trust in him vs. the president to control the situation in Iraq? They have much greater faith in the president than they do in John Kerry.

BIDEN: You know, I know this is going to sound corny to you. That's above my pay grade. That's about politics. I'm talking about substance. I don't care what John Kerry's number is.

I care about the kids that we have sitting over there. I don't give a damn whether John Kerry wins or loses or George Bush wins or loses. All I know is, this entire program to try to win the peace in Iraq is, in fact, going down the drain, because the president keeps saying stay the course, instead of change the course. What is the plan, Mr. President? I don't care whether you win or lose. What's the plan you're going to have in January? How are you going to hold elections, Mr. President? How are you going to train these forces, Mr. -- what are the two things he says, Paula?

We have to train the Iraqis to supplant the Americans, No. 1. And, No. 2, we have to hold elections in order to have a free and Democratic Iraq. Neither are happening. The secretary of defense said in February on your program, we've trained 210,000 people. I told you then that was malarkey. Last Friday, he said we've trained 95,000 Iraqis. That is malarkey. He said we trained 32,000 Iraqi policemen. Not one single solitary Iraqi policeman has completed the 24-week training program, not one single solitary one.

So why aren't we telling the truth? And what's going to happen, Paula, you continue this happy talk, and after the election, all hell breaks loose, and there's no elections, the American people are going say, no matter who is president, I have had enough. And then, Paula, we're not going to have red alerts. We're not going to have orange alerts. We're not going to have bronze or whatever the color alerts are. We're going to have a decade of red alerts, because you're going to right in the middle of the Middle East, another Afghanistan.

ZAHN: Senator, final question for you, is a civil war all but inevitable in Iraq?

BIDEN: Absolutely not inevitable, if we move now, if we do the four or five things that not just John Kerry's said, that Dick Lugar said, that Joe Biden said.

If we do that, we have a genuine chance of keeping on track the elections and actually being able to do what we need today do, which is have a strategy, the exit strategy, of holding elections next December, and over -- gradually over the next three years drawing down our commitment there. That is still possible. But if we continue to -- quote -- "stay the course," Katie bar the door. Who knows what's going to exist in January.

ZAHN: Senator Biden, thank you so much for spending time with us tonight. We appreciate it.

BIDEN: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: And when we come back, the White House reacts to Senator Biden's criticism, and much more.



You may want to check the the responce to Biden it was joke. http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0409/21/pzn.00.html

Wally_in_Cincy
09-22-2004, 11:06 AM
so what's Biden's plan?

highsea
09-22-2004, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>Not one single solitary Iraqi policeman has completed the 24-week training program, not one single solitary one.<hr /></blockquote>Well, I have to say, Biden is spinning just a little bit out of control here. Pull up Joe! Pull up! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Here are a few facts that Biden is apparently unaware of:

The basic training for the IP is an 8 week course. The most recent class of 654 recruits graduated August 5th. 552 of them reported to duty stations.

The remainder went on to extended training. These officers will complete courses in basic criminal investigation, criminal intelligence and police internal controls. There were 74 graduates of this program in the last batch.

There is an additional extended training program that is another 8 week course. This is for the elite Emergengy Response Unit. This is a 270 man unit trained in Delta/Swat tactics, and is designed to respond to terrorist incidents, kidnappings, hostage negotiations, explosive ordnance disposal and other similar situations. An additional 28 IP Officers graduated from that course last month. I do not know how many officers the unit has as of today, but I could find out.

So I guess you could say Biden was telling the truth, not a single IP recruit has completed a 24 week course. Perhaps if there was a 24 week course things would be different.

-CM

Ross
09-22-2004, 02:41 PM
Before you accuse Biden of not having his facts straight, you might check your own. After all he is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee so he gets regular high level briefings on this matter. Also he visited Iraq last week to see how things were going.

In particular your claim there isn't a 24 week training is incorrect.

From http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/mar2004/a032204a.html

<ul type="square"> "Approximately 1,500 newly-hired Iraqi police officers have graduated from their basic eight-week training course and are undergoing 24 weeks of on-the-job field training. In addition, approximately 12,000 already-serving officers have undergone a Transition and Integration Program training course emphasizing human rights and policing in a democratic society
[/list]

And on his site, Biden explains why this is a real concern:

<ul type="square"> Biden said the Bush administration has failed to plan adequately for Iraq's recovery. He cited, as an example, an Iraqi police training academy that he visited. About 30 percent of those attending the eight-week academy couldn't pass a pursuit driving course because they had never driven a car before.

In Bosnia and Kosovo, by contrast, police training academies were three months long followed by a 24-week period in which the new officers were supervised by international trainers. Then, officers were sent back for a final round of training.

"There is just no way you can train someone to be a cop in eight weeks," Biden said. [/list]


I would be inclined to agree with his point about the amount of training needed. Remember, our trainers don't speak their language, and most of the recruits have almost no experience in working in western style organizations. I read that they don't know how to serve warrants and when they do, they don't follow them up. Attendance at work is seen as optional by many of them. In other words, they are a ragtag mess that probably need 6 weeks of boot camp, followed by 6 months of on the job training from experienced officers. Obviously, that will not happen. The US just doesn't have the resources by itself to provide that.

highsea
09-22-2004, 03:33 PM
Well, Biden's comment leaves the very clear impression that we have not trained a single IP officer.

Let's to do a little math. You article is from late March, so anyone who entered the program at that time would just be finishing the 24 weeks of OJT today.

The main training center is the Jordan International Police Training Center in Muwaqqar, Jordan. They have graduated 4,800 new recruits since the beginning of this year. (The first class started on November 29, 2003) The contract is for 32,000 new recruits over a two year period. I would say they are probably pretty close to that schedule, with over 1,500 new recruits graduating every 8 weeks, and the class sizes get bigger each round.

If the initial graduates underwent extended training, and then entered into the 24 weeks of OJT, then they coundn't have finished all of the programs by now. There hasn't been enough time elapsed.

And BTW, they are being trained by International trainers. There are 336 trainers from 15 countries at that facility.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest of what constitutes "training". When you are talking about police or soldiers, training ends the day you retire. But anybody that thinks the ING or IP are not on the job hasn't been watching the news.

I did not see the statement by Rummy (that Biden is quoting) that we've trained 32,000 policemen. I will try to dig it up. I don't think Rummy really said that, because he surely realizes that it is a 2 year contract.

Biden calls it "malarkey", well I call his statement "malarkey". He's playing politics with semantics, which is pretty typical, wouldn't you say?

-CM

edit to add: <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>In addition, approximately 12,000 already-serving officers have undergone a Transition and Integration Program training course emphasizing human rights and policing in a democratic society<hr /></blockquote>I would call this training, wouldn't you?

Ross
09-22-2004, 03:35 PM
By the way, if you want to see the 320 hour (8 week) curriculum, here it is:

http://www.poldoc.be/dir/dgp/dpm/document/detachement/irakoprBijl3.pdf

Those recruits heads must be swimming!

highsea
09-22-2004, 03:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>Those recruits heads must be swimming! <hr /></blockquote>I can't read a .PDF, don't ask why. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Can you copy/paste the relevant parts?

-CM

Ross
09-22-2004, 04:07 PM
It is in table form with two columns and you can't cut and paste from just one column, so this is the best I could do (columns are mashed together). The numbers after the module name is the number of hours spent on the subject.

BLOCK 1 40 hours Lesson 41 Iraqi Criminal Law and Procedure BLOCK 4 40 hours
Lesson 1: Course Introduction and Administration 3 Lesson A: Overview of Iraqi Criminal Justice System 8
Lesson 2: New Iraqi Police Mission, Philosophy and Role 3 Lesson B: Laws of Arrest 8
Lesson 3: Organizational Structure of Iraq Police Service 3 Lesson C: Search and Seizure Laws 8
Lesson 4: Democratic Policing Principles 4 Lesson D: Role of Courts 8
Lesson 5: Policing in a Democratic Society 3 Lesson E: Human Rights and Testing 8
Lesson 6: What are Human Rights 3 Lesson 42 DEFENSIVE TACTICS &amp; USE OF FORCE BLOCK 5 40 hours
Lesson 7: Basic Source of International Law 3 Lesson A: Use of Force 2
Lesson 8: Non-discrimination a basic element of human Rights 2 Lesson B: Officer Survival Skills 3
Lesson 9: Right to Life 3 Lesson C: Officer Safety 3
Lesson 10: Prohibition against torture 2 Lesson D: Soft empty hand control techniques 6
Lesson 11: Trafficking of Persons 3 Lesson E: Suspect search and escort 2
Lesson 12: Rights of children and juveniles 3 Lesson F: Hard empty hand control techniques 6
Lesson 13: Freedom of thought, conscience and religion 3 Lesson G: Weapon Retention 3
Lesson 14: Freedom of assembly and association 2 Lesson H: Baton 6
BLOCK 2 40 hours Lesson I: Handcuffing 4
Lesson 15: Freedom of movement 3 Lesson J: Practical exercise &amp; testing 5
Lesson 16: International Law Basics 2 Lesson 43 TACTICAL FIREARMS – VEHICLE STOPS –TACTICS BLOCK 6 40 hours
Lesson 17: Liberty and Security of Persons 2 Lesson A: FATS I 3
Lesson 18: Pre-trial police behavior, potential violations of H/R 2 Lesson B: FATS II 3
Lesson 19: Principles of non-discrimination-Women in Society 2 Lesson C: FATS III 3
Lesson 20: Gender Issues 4 Lesson D: FATS IV 3
Lesson 21: Evolution of Democratic policing 3 Lesson E: FATS ASSESSMENT 4
Lesson 22: Community policing 3 Lesson F: Civil Disturbance Management 8
Lesson 23: Policing in a Multi-Ethnic Society 4 Lesson G: Vehicle stops 12
Lesson 24: Diversity Awareness 3 Lesson H: Vehicle Search 4
Lesson 25: Police ethics and values I 3 Lesson 44 Firearms – Pistol Training BLOCK 7 40 hours
Lesson 26: Standards for Code of Conduct 3 Lesson A: Handgun Safety and Terminology I 3
Lesson 27: Police ethics and values II 3 Lesson B: Handgun Safety and Terminology II 3
Lesson 28: International standards for police use of force 3 Lesson C: Handgun Maintenance 2
BLOCK 3 40 hours Lesson D: Handgun Manipulation I 2
Lesson 29: Women in Law Enforcement 4 Lesson E: Handgun Manipulation II 3
Lesson 30: Note-taking 1 Lesson F: Live Firing Range I 3
Lesson 31: Patrol Procedures I 4 Lesson G: Live Firing Range II 2
Lesson 32: Patrol Procedures II 4 Lesson H: Live Firing Range III 3
Lesson 33: Domestic Violence 3 Lesson I: Live Firing Range IV 3
Lesson 34: Interviewing victims and taking statements 3 Lesson J: Barricade 4
Lesson 35: Interviewing witnesses and taking statements 4 Lesson K: Low light flashlight shooting 4
Lesson 36: Interviewing suspects and taking statements 3 Lesson L: Live Fire Qualification 8
Lesson 37: Report writing 3 Lesson M: Familiarization and Live Fire AK 47
Lesson 38: Communications 3 Lesson 45 Emergency Vehicle Ops/1st Aid/Tactics BLOCK 8 40 hours
Lesson 39: Preliminary Investigation/First Responding Officer 4 Lesson A: Emergency Vehicle Operations 24
Lesson 40: Mine Awareness 4 Lesson B: First Aid 8
Lesson C: Room and Building Searches-Practical 8
COURSE TOTAL 320

nAz
09-23-2004, 09:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> so what's Biden's plan? <hr /></blockquote>

ha i don't know if he,Bush and Kerry even knows what to do, but i do...

reinstate the draft and send in another 100K troops in there to actually lock the place down for the next 8 years, at the same time pressure the UN to send "peace" troops in to help with the humanitarian issues. then i would have Israel use some of those smart bombs we sold them recently to completely destroy the Iranian Nuclear reactors "a real threat". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

highsea
09-23-2004, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>reinstate the draft and send in another 100K troops in there to actually lock the place down for the next 8 years, at the same time pressure the UN to send "peace" troops in to help with the humanitarian issues. then i would have Israel use some of those smart bombs we sold them recently to completely destroy the Iranian Nuclear reactors "a real threat". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>Geez, I'm glad you're not in charge! First, with an active duty roster of 1.4 Million, the US does not need to institute a draft to up the numbers in Iraq. The number of forces there are what the General's in charge say they need.

Also, Israel cannot take out Iran's nuclear facilities. It's not the same thing as Iraq. For one thing, there are several sites, and some are buried deep underground and heavily fortified. Israel does not have the munitions to take these sites out. Just hitting one reactor will not shut down Iran's nuke program.

But more importantly, Israel's F-16's do not have the range to accomplish the mission anyway. When they took out the Osirak reactor in Iraq, they couldn't use laser guided bombs because they would have put the planes over the weight limit. They needed to run with max fuel load, and the extra weight of the targeting pods and PGM's would have meant they would have run out of fuel on the way home.

The strike was carried out by visual targeting. The first F-16 punched a hole in the reactor dome with (2) 2,000lb. unguided bombs, and the remaining AC followed with (IIRC) 14 more bombs dropped through the hole. Only one missed the target.

Israel could use sub-launched cruise missiles, but there is no way that would do the job completely. The only nation capable of knocking out all of Iran's nuke sites militarily is the US.

Incidentally, did you see the reports of Iran's latest parade?

http://www.dawn.com/2004/09/22/top14.htm

[ QUOTE ]
TEHRAN, Sept 21: Iran showed off its range of ballistic missiles at an annual military parade on Tuesday, with the rockets draped in banners vowing to "crush America" and "wipe Israel off the map".

A banner stating "Israel must be wiped off the map" was draped on the side of a Shahab-2 missile, while a banner saying "We will crush America under our feet" was on the side of a trailer carrying the latest Shahab-3 missile.

The parade marks the beginning of "Sacred Defence Week", an event commemorating Iraq's 1980 attack on Iran and the outset of the bloody eight-year war. "The Shahab-3 missiles, with different ranges, enables us to destroy the most distant targets," said an official commentary accompanying the parade, which was carried live on state television.

"These missiles enable us to destroy the enemy with missile strikes," the commentary said, without giving any specific details on the range of the missiles. The Shahab-3 is Iran's most advanced missile and is capable of hitting arch-enemy Israel. -AFP <hr /></blockquote> Oooh, I'm scared. I hope my stomach is not roasted in hell. Truly. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Lol, nice guys, huh?

-CM